RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Honda Civic Type R (EP3)
Discussion
900T-R said:
You'd have enough low-end grunt not to be embarrassed by shopping trolleys in traffic and a nice gutsy midrange. 
I'll assume you've never driven the Civic then, but here's a few numbers for you:Civic Type R - 145lb/ft
306 Rallye/GTI-6 - 145lb/ft
Clio 182 - 148lb/ft
Not driven the rallye I'll grant you, but I've owned the Civic and driven a 182 enough times to inform you that the Civic pulls better in gear purely due to how well chosen it's gear ratios were from the factory.
Yup. Never worked for me. I had an Accord Type R, covered many miles in an Integra Type R and was disappointed when I tried the Civic. Upgrading it to JDM spec would have improved it but not fixed it. It would still have been too harsh. And that is a problem, not because I value my fillings, but because I don't like my car to be bounced off course or relieved of grip midway through a bumpy corner. These are problems that didn't affect the earlier Type Rs - or a lot of the competition.
Having said all that, it was great value if you could live with the problems. Better still, today it would make a great FWD track toy as its shortcomings are far less relevant to track driving than B-road blasting.
Having said all that, it was great value if you could live with the problems. Better still, today it would make a great FWD track toy as its shortcomings are far less relevant to track driving than B-road blasting.
doogz said:
Better than an Integra? 106? 306? 205? Saxo? Previous shape Civic? various Clios? Focus?
Don't think so.
I wouldn't pitch it against the Integra, I always think of that as a FWD coupe. But as for handling, surely not much worse. I still remember that video of the Japanese track test of the EP3, the DC2 and the Accord Type R where the EP3 was the quickest of the lot! Being more of a coupe man myself though, I'd probably still choose the DC2 though I have much love and respect for the Civic. Don't think so.
As for the Peugeots, the EP3 might not be up there with the 205 GTI. I can't say, I've never driven one. But I certainly handles as well as the 106/306 GTI's and the hot Saxos. It might lack some minute facet of adjustability mid corner, afforded to the 106 GTI/Saxo VTS+VTS by their extremely small foot print, but overall it handles just as well with considerably more power to boot. Having previously owned a Saxo VTR, I am quite confident the EP3 handles just as well, though some consideration must be given to it as it is a bigger car. In every other respect, the EP3 succeeds in making those little French hot hatches look quite silly; the design and engineering is a lot better. Not to pour scorn on the French, but the competition is Japanese...
As for the various Clios, yes I'd say it's a better handler. Not that I don't like the Clios (Indeed, I nearly bought a 172 earlier this year and I'd still have one), but the EP3 feels alot more purposeful, focused and pleasingly manic. I reckon it handles better though, the Clios are good but not the superlative experience that I've heard some describe when discussing them.
As for the Focus, yes, I'd say it handles a lot better on average. Probably on par with the ST170 as far as handling goes, though a better car overall. Far better than the leaden Focus ST or anything on the mkII Focus platform.
That said, all of the above cars have their positives and I am a big fan of small French bang-boxes. They appeal to different people for different reasons. The Civic appeals to someone who first and foremost considers the pleasure of the drive, and the experience of giving it some leather. It is raw and exciting and it demands skill to exploit. I have discussed before the complaint that the EP3 lacks punch when exiting corners because the complainant does not know how to corner properly, leading them to be in the wrong place, in the wrong gear at the wrong speed and never having the car set up correctly to punch out of a corner on a VTEC-change-over. Quite frankly, the Civic demands some skill of the driver and if you're not driving it right it probably will feel pretty dire, as you'll forever be in the wrong gear away from the VTEC range, and if you're not downshifting correctly the car will be shunting back and forwards as you fail to rev match your shifts. Again, I don't think the car should make any apologies for being demanding; moreover the trend seems to be that cars are moving away from this sort of driver interaction. Enjoy the the EP3 whilst you can!
Much like what everyone else has said, the tyres were a real bad point, in what was a cheap fun car. I had one for close to 5 years and did many European trips, track days (okay not many, only 3) and the car never missed a beat and was very fun to drive, especially when the oversteering was mastered.
It was a fantastic step up from a first car to a quick car, and again as mentioned it hated pootling about...it loved to be driven hard. The more you gave it the more fun it would be. I did enjoy it thoroughly but the need to get a more 'grown up' car was overwhelming.
It was a fantastic step up from a first car to a quick car, and again as mentioned it hated pootling about...it loved to be driven hard. The more you gave it the more fun it would be. I did enjoy it thoroughly but the need to get a more 'grown up' car was overwhelming.
carsnapper said:
'...can you persuade him otherwise?'
About the EP3? No, it's rubbish. The ATR is the king of the old school UK Type R collection, now that is a quality car. Especially the pre-facelift in silver, as silver has been proven scientifically, to be the fastest colour. True.
True enough except in one vital respect: The ATR only had 5 gears and it was all too easy to change up and find yourself out of Vtec. An extra ratio and it would be a classic. (Owned one for a year).About the EP3? No, it's rubbish. The ATR is the king of the old school UK Type R collection, now that is a quality car. Especially the pre-facelift in silver, as silver has been proven scientifically, to be the fastest colour. True.
carsnapper said:
'...can you persuade him otherwise?'
About the EP3? No, it's rubbish. The ATR is the king of the old school UK Type R collection, now that is a quality car. Especially the pre-facelift in silver, as silver has been proven scientifically, to be the fastest colour. True.
Are you not forgetting the DC2? Or are you talking about all round rather than all out.About the EP3? No, it's rubbish. The ATR is the king of the old school UK Type R collection, now that is a quality car. Especially the pre-facelift in silver, as silver has been proven scientifically, to be the fastest colour. True.
I've driven all the Type Rs bar NSX and DC5 Integra. The DC2 was far and away the best, with the ATR being the best of the rest. None of the CTRs were much cop, though the EK9 would have been a classic if they'd used the DC2s drivetrain rather than the B16 which was a torque free zone. As it was, lots of noise, none of it seemingly making any difference to progress.
DanDC5 said:
Yet you think the clio isn't flat? 
Clios of that vintage were a lot lighter.The current gen, you'd have a point.
DanDC5 said:
Nice of you to ignore the facts put before you below though.
What, a row of Top Trumps manufacturer figures? For starters you could've added the rpm at which peak torque occurs...Ali_T said:
I've driven all the Type Rs bar NSX and DC5 Integra. The DC2 was far and away the best, with the ATR being the best of the rest. None of the CTRs were much cop, though the EK9 would have been a classic if they'd used the DC2s drivetrain rather than the B16 which was a torque free zone. As it was, lots of noise, none of it seemingly making any difference to progress.
Driven all bar the EK9 and the NSX sadly 
IMO The DC5 is even better than the DC2 (unbiased obviously
). Both are better than the EP3 as a standard car by a fair way, purely because they have a proper hydraulic steering system rather than the electronic gashness. Ali_T said:
I've driven all the Type Rs bar NSX and DC5 Integra. The DC2 was far and away the best, with the ATR being the best of the rest. None of the CTRs were much cop, though the EK9 would have been a classic if they'd used the DC2s drivetrain rather than the B16 which was a torque free zone. As it was, lots of noise, none of it seemingly making any difference to progress.
You have missed one: The FD2 of which seems to be the best Type R they ever made, bar the NSX of course.900T-R said:
Clios of that vintage were a lot lighter.
The current gen, you'd have a point.
That is true, the current Clio has to be one of the most disappointing cars I've ever been in. All I'd read was how amazing it was at this and that and how quick it was. After being in one I genuinely wonder if Renault gave the press turbo'd ones just to make some headlines. The current gen, you'd have a point.
doogz said:
The DC2 had an extra 12.5% capacity over the Civic. And made 12.5% more torque, still only managing 133lbft from a 1.8.
Pretty average amount of torque from a NA 16v engine, the same could be said about the Civic engine.
Didn't the Civic hit 60 in under 6.5s from a NA 1.6. Doesn't seem like "lots of noise, none of it seemingly making any difference to progress" to me.
Japanese figures were 5.9 to 60 but no-one ever managed to repeat that. Indeed, no-one, that I read, managed to get it under 7.0 secs. Truthfully, it wasn't much faster than the EG6 VTi as the extra power was sapped by the extra weight the Ek series put on.Pretty average amount of torque from a NA 16v engine, the same could be said about the Civic engine.
Didn't the Civic hit 60 in under 6.5s from a NA 1.6. Doesn't seem like "lots of noise, none of it seemingly making any difference to progress" to me.
Chris, the biggest problem the EP3 had when new was the factory spec Bridgestone RE040 tyres.
Having recently driven a tidy, standard EP3 first on stock rubber and then on more modern rubber (again Bridgestones) the difference was incredible. Less tramlining, much less steering kickback, and i found the car actually worked very well below 4k rpm and above 5k rpm, as two very different vehicles. Below 4k it was docile and tractable and easy, and above 5k it showed a surprising turn of speed and was agile and easy to place.
But that's just my opinion...
Having recently driven a tidy, standard EP3 first on stock rubber and then on more modern rubber (again Bridgestones) the difference was incredible. Less tramlining, much less steering kickback, and i found the car actually worked very well below 4k rpm and above 5k rpm, as two very different vehicles. Below 4k it was docile and tractable and easy, and above 5k it showed a surprising turn of speed and was agile and easy to place.
But that's just my opinion...
Of course the FD2 was around in the early 00's wasnt it.... (even the mighty FD2's suspension is too hard for UK roads, same as the DC5's)
Not quite sure why people are comparing the Integras to the EP3's as their different cars aimed at different markets, of which neither the DC2 nor the DC5 have sold anywhere as near as many EP3's in this country. (Ok someone will pipe up that the DC5 is an import and blah blah blah, yet their advertised on AT so people could find them).
As for the people suggesting that it had to be revved hard everywhere all the time, really? Maybe your driving style/attitude should have changed as its quite easy to make progress without hitting vtec
As for the Best Motoring Vids - most are all fakes/set-ups, you do know that dont you?
Not quite sure why people are comparing the Integras to the EP3's as their different cars aimed at different markets, of which neither the DC2 nor the DC5 have sold anywhere as near as many EP3's in this country. (Ok someone will pipe up that the DC5 is an import and blah blah blah, yet their advertised on AT so people could find them).
As for the people suggesting that it had to be revved hard everywhere all the time, really? Maybe your driving style/attitude should have changed as its quite easy to make progress without hitting vtec
As for the Best Motoring Vids - most are all fakes/set-ups, you do know that dont you?
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