RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Honda Civic Type R (EP3)
Discussion
Chris raises a few interesting points, yes the car only comes alive when you start to push it and at low speeed this can be tiring.
I'd much rather have the storming engine / gearbox combo and banzai power delivery over any dull turbo VAG car. It makes it more of an event when you do push on!
Also from an ownership proposition (remember this is another essential in the real world of car ownership!) the car is reliable despite having a 100bhp per litre engine.
Of course you can re-map Seats and Golfs until they output silly bhp, but I find chasing the red line in the Civic more fun than outright pace.
As a side note, it's great that Chris is talking about the EP3 Type R! I look forward to more articles and discussions about cars that are affordable and accessible! Kudos to you!
I'd much rather have the storming engine / gearbox combo and banzai power delivery over any dull turbo VAG car. It makes it more of an event when you do push on!
Also from an ownership proposition (remember this is another essential in the real world of car ownership!) the car is reliable despite having a 100bhp per litre engine.
Of course you can re-map Seats and Golfs until they output silly bhp, but I find chasing the red line in the Civic more fun than outright pace.
As a side note, it's great that Chris is talking about the EP3 Type R! I look forward to more articles and discussions about cars that are affordable and accessible! Kudos to you!
900T-R said:
Fatman2 said:
People often slated the engine for lack of low end torque but I think these people were incapable of understanding 2.0 litre NA engines, for which it fared very well and performed better than most.
OK, back around the turn of the century the 2 litre turbo engine wasn't the default choice for hot hatches - either they were 2 litre normally aspirated or the VAG 1.8 litre 5 valve turbo - most of the latter in 150 or 180 bhp trim. I can only say that compared to the competition at the time, the Honda felt very flat and unresponsive below the VTEC zone (which incidentally was narrow enough to 'fall out of' with every upshift unless you red-lined it every single time - something I'm not prepared to do in a road car, it's not like you're not drawing enough attention to yourself as-is).
I agree that it is a difficult car to rationalise on regular UK roads but this was never a problem in Milton Keynes as almost all main roads are NSL. Thus drawing unwanted attention is not an issue.
The comments about other hatches being better equipped and having a more relaxing power delivery pinpoint the polarisation of the hot hatch market. A hot hatch is a compromise, achieved by souping up some very mundane hardware. The result of this is a combination of performance, practicality and price which makes the car attractive to a wide range of people who would otherwise be unable to own something quite so good. The polarisation comes into play when you ask what the no-compromise alternative would be.
Some people buy a hot hatch because they can't live with the impracticality of the sportscar they would really like. Other people buy a hot hatch because they can't afford the executive saloon car they would really like. If you are buying one because you can't have a 330i, you are going to favour a different style of hot hatch to someone who is buying one because he can't have an Elise. The VAG cars with turbocharged engines, plush interiors and lots of equipment are at one end of the scale, the Honda at the other. It doesn't make one better than the other, it makes them different.
The EP3's interior had good seats, a great driving position, perfectly positioned controls and sod all else. It had a brilliant engine and gearbox which demanded that you thrash the tits off it - though to be fair it was perfectly tractable and civilised if you didn't, it just drove like an ordinary two litre hatchback at low revs. I quite liked that split personality. The ride quality was harsh, the tyre noise on the motorway was poor and the stereo was crap. None of that really bothered me. Even the much maligned steering ceased to be an irritation once I'd lived with it for a while - I had a 306XSi before it, so the contrast was noticeable, but you get used to it. I liked the fact that it encouraged you to take it by the scruff, I liked the pointy front end and throttle sensitivity and I never once mourned the lack of toys. Maybe if I'd bought it to commute through town traffic I'd have had a different view.
The EP3 was certainly flawed, but as a package it was what I really wanted at the time. In terms of concept, if not quite in execution, it was perfect. I'd wanted a hot Honda for years after reading reviews of the old Civic VTi when insuring one of the damn things would have been too expensive, so when the Type-R came out, Bulgin and the other CAR writers had already sold it to me:
Some people buy a hot hatch because they can't live with the impracticality of the sportscar they would really like. Other people buy a hot hatch because they can't afford the executive saloon car they would really like. If you are buying one because you can't have a 330i, you are going to favour a different style of hot hatch to someone who is buying one because he can't have an Elise. The VAG cars with turbocharged engines, plush interiors and lots of equipment are at one end of the scale, the Honda at the other. It doesn't make one better than the other, it makes them different.
The EP3's interior had good seats, a great driving position, perfectly positioned controls and sod all else. It had a brilliant engine and gearbox which demanded that you thrash the tits off it - though to be fair it was perfectly tractable and civilised if you didn't, it just drove like an ordinary two litre hatchback at low revs. I quite liked that split personality. The ride quality was harsh, the tyre noise on the motorway was poor and the stereo was crap. None of that really bothered me. Even the much maligned steering ceased to be an irritation once I'd lived with it for a while - I had a 306XSi before it, so the contrast was noticeable, but you get used to it. I liked the fact that it encouraged you to take it by the scruff, I liked the pointy front end and throttle sensitivity and I never once mourned the lack of toys. Maybe if I'd bought it to commute through town traffic I'd have had a different view.
The EP3 was certainly flawed, but as a package it was what I really wanted at the time. In terms of concept, if not quite in execution, it was perfect. I'd wanted a hot Honda for years after reading reviews of the old Civic VTi when insuring one of the damn things would have been too expensive, so when the Type-R came out, Bulgin and the other CAR writers had already sold it to me:
I had a brand new 04 plate when I was 21 - perfect car for me at the time, drove it like I stole it most of the time - there in lies the problem!
Handling was never quite precise enough and the back end had a tendancy to break out now and again on lift off a little easily
engine and gearbox were awesome though - hence why I have a late s2000 now, can't get away from the vtec.....
Handling was never quite precise enough and the back end had a tendancy to break out now and again on lift off a little easily
engine and gearbox were awesome though - hence why I have a late s2000 now, can't get away from the vtec.....
kingstondc5 said:
Of course the FD2 was around in the early 00's wasnt it.... (even the mighty FD2's suspension is too hard for UK roads, same as the DC5's)
Not quite sure why people are comparing the Integras to the EP3's as their different cars aimed at different markets, of which neither the DC2 nor the DC5 have sold anywhere as near as many EP3's in this country. (Ok someone will pipe up that the DC5 is an import and blah blah blah, yet their advertised on AT so people could find them).
As for the people suggesting that it had to be revved hard everywhere all the time, really? Maybe your driving style/attitude should have changed as its quite easy to make progress without hitting vtec
As for the Best Motoring Vids - most are all fakes/set-ups, you do know that dont you?
Think the FD2 is even harder than the DC5 isn't it? Not quite sure why people are comparing the Integras to the EP3's as their different cars aimed at different markets, of which neither the DC2 nor the DC5 have sold anywhere as near as many EP3's in this country. (Ok someone will pipe up that the DC5 is an import and blah blah blah, yet their advertised on AT so people could find them).
As for the people suggesting that it had to be revved hard everywhere all the time, really? Maybe your driving style/attitude should have changed as its quite easy to make progress without hitting vtec
As for the Best Motoring Vids - most are all fakes/set-ups, you do know that dont you?
I owned a facelifted one between 2004 and 2006 doing around 50,000 miles in it. I had considered a Focus ST170 but didn't like the engine whereas the Honda's was outstanding. The Focus certainly handled better I thought from the test drives but the Honda was still very good, plus I preferred its styling - especially the interior which was a very clever piece of design (apart from only being able to tip the passenger seat forward for getting into the back and it not returning to its original position). Few of things that I didn't appreciated until after I'd bought the car was how bad the turning circle was, that the hifi wasn't up to much and that lots of other cars would try and coax me into a race. I found it to be a very serious car, rather than fun: hugely satisfying when in the right mood and on the right road (a smooth, twisty one) but a relatively noisy, hard and uneconomical hatch when not. I ended up trading it n for a Smart Roadster, a car that is fun all of the time and puts a smile on my face - something the Honda rarely did.
Baryonyx said:
Poor show, the EP3 is one of the best handling hot hatches around. Primiarly because it never concerned itself with the developing power wars of the time, it just did it's own thing with a manic engine and a sense of purpose. I often think of it as a scalpel of the hot hatches of the time, when everyone else seemed to intent on developing and perecting the sledgehammer.
Often, the VTEC engine is a source of a criticism, yet it is what it is. I suspect years of driving turbo powered cars (and also sadly, diesels) has made people lazy to the extent some have forgotten how to use a gearbox, or are not concerned with 'the right gear', only 'the gear I'm in'. The EP3 demands attention, and it demands some input from the driver to get the best from it, which is why I think it's found such favour as a drivers car. The whole experience is so much better when the car demands something back, and in this case, it is the willingness to take the car by the scruff of it's neck and rev it hard. I don't think it's particularly lazy below the VTEC range, but the explosive noise and power when the new cam profile engages is as addictive as any turbo spooling up and throwing you down a road!
Similarly, it's not a car I'd recommend for someone who wants to pootle to the shops and have the occasional blast down a B road in, because it the Civic Type R demands that you drive it hard everywhere. For a petrolhead though, that is perhaps one of it's most charming qualities; namely that it inspires the driver to give it some leather.
I also take issue with the comments about it's handling. While I'm far more familiar with the post-facelift version, I have always thought of it as being a very sharp, accurate hot hatch. Hence 'the scalpel', cutting and slicing through B roads where more clumsy rivals like the Focus ST and Astra VXR just try to force their way down on the back of a turbo-charged wave of power. The Civic Type R is the perfect antidote to hot hatch drivers who are becoming lazy, or starting to feel jaded with the power wars. Of it's time, it was my favourite NA hot hatch (better than the Clios of the day, IME). Though I'll always love turbo powered hot hatches too, the appeal of the Civic Type R cannot be denied.
I agree but what about the renault sport offerings, Ive had 172/182/197 and preferred them all to the Civic, the suspension and steering was far better in my opinion than the Civic and they still give you the scalpel sharpness of a screaming na hatch?Often, the VTEC engine is a source of a criticism, yet it is what it is. I suspect years of driving turbo powered cars (and also sadly, diesels) has made people lazy to the extent some have forgotten how to use a gearbox, or are not concerned with 'the right gear', only 'the gear I'm in'. The EP3 demands attention, and it demands some input from the driver to get the best from it, which is why I think it's found such favour as a drivers car. The whole experience is so much better when the car demands something back, and in this case, it is the willingness to take the car by the scruff of it's neck and rev it hard. I don't think it's particularly lazy below the VTEC range, but the explosive noise and power when the new cam profile engages is as addictive as any turbo spooling up and throwing you down a road!
Similarly, it's not a car I'd recommend for someone who wants to pootle to the shops and have the occasional blast down a B road in, because it the Civic Type R demands that you drive it hard everywhere. For a petrolhead though, that is perhaps one of it's most charming qualities; namely that it inspires the driver to give it some leather.
I also take issue with the comments about it's handling. While I'm far more familiar with the post-facelift version, I have always thought of it as being a very sharp, accurate hot hatch. Hence 'the scalpel', cutting and slicing through B roads where more clumsy rivals like the Focus ST and Astra VXR just try to force their way down on the back of a turbo-charged wave of power. The Civic Type R is the perfect antidote to hot hatch drivers who are becoming lazy, or starting to feel jaded with the power wars. Of it's time, it was my favourite NA hot hatch (better than the Clios of the day, IME). Though I'll always love turbo powered hot hatches too, the appeal of the Civic Type R cannot be denied.
I dont think there is a right / wrong answer to the argument as I feel different cars suit different driving styles.
vz-r_dave said:
Are you not forgetting the DC2? Or are you talking about all round rather than all out.
I like the ATR's high speed handling (longer wheel base) and huge boot! I might have liked the DC2 a little more if I could actually fit in the car. With my rather 'generous' dimensions, The ATR is the only one I found comfortable. The little bit of 'extra' torque from the 2.2l is welcomed. I remember driving for a magazine test up at Anglesey Circuit with the EP3, Mini Cooper S (supercharged) and the MK5 Golf GTi - there was no doubt that in the dry the EP3 was the quickest out of the 3 around the track, but none of us wanted to own one!
bigtommyp said:
I had a brand new 04 plate when I was 21 - perfect car for me at the time, drove it like I stole it most of the time - there in lies the problem!
Handling was never quite precise enough and the back end had a tendancy to break out now and again on lift off a little easily
engine and gearbox were awesome though - hence why I have a late s2000 now, can't get away from the vtec.....
I think that assuming the steering is able to compliment it that lift off oversteer is not a negative aspect of a cars chassis/handling. The DC2 had the same aspects and was/still is the best FWD car of all time. Handling was never quite precise enough and the back end had a tendancy to break out now and again on lift off a little easily
engine and gearbox were awesome though - hence why I have a late s2000 now, can't get away from the vtec.....
otolith said:
The comments about other hatches being better equipped and having a more relaxing power delivery pinpoint the polarisation of the hot hatch market. A hot hatch is a compromise, achieved by souping up some very mundane hardware. The result of this is a combination of performance, practicality and price which makes the car attractive to a wide range of people who would otherwise be unable to own something quite so good. The polarisation comes into play when you ask what the no-compromise alternative would be.
Some people buy a hot hatch because they can't live with the impracticality of the sportscar they would really like. Other people buy a hot hatch because they can't afford the executive saloon car they would really like. If you are buying one because you can't have a 330i, you are going to favour a different style of hot hatch to someone who is buying one because he can't have an Elise. The VAG cars with turbocharged engines, plush interiors and lots of equipment are at one end of the scale, the Honda at the other. It doesn't make one better than the other, it makes them different.
The EP3's interior had good seats, a great driving position, perfectly positioned controls and sod all else. It had a brilliant engine and gearbox which demanded that you thrash the tits off it - though to be fair it was perfectly tractable and civilised if you didn't, it just drove like an ordinary two litre hatchback at low revs. I quite liked that split personality. The ride quality was harsh, the tyre noise on the motorway was poor and the stereo was crap. None of that really bothered me. Even the much maligned steering ceased to be an irritation once I'd lived with it for a while - I had a 306XSi before it, so the contrast was noticeable, but you get used to it. I liked the fact that it encouraged you to take it by the scruff, I liked the pointy front end and throttle sensitivity and I never once mourned the lack of toys. Maybe if I'd bought it to commute through town traffic I'd have had a different view.
The EP3 was certainly flawed, but as a package it was what I really wanted at the time. In terms of concept, if not quite in execution, it was perfect. I'd wanted a hot Honda for years after reading reviews of the old Civic VTi when insuring one of the damn things would have been too expensive, so when the Type-R came out, Bulgin and the other CAR writers had already sold it to me:
/\ This. Well put.Some people buy a hot hatch because they can't live with the impracticality of the sportscar they would really like. Other people buy a hot hatch because they can't afford the executive saloon car they would really like. If you are buying one because you can't have a 330i, you are going to favour a different style of hot hatch to someone who is buying one because he can't have an Elise. The VAG cars with turbocharged engines, plush interiors and lots of equipment are at one end of the scale, the Honda at the other. It doesn't make one better than the other, it makes them different.
The EP3's interior had good seats, a great driving position, perfectly positioned controls and sod all else. It had a brilliant engine and gearbox which demanded that you thrash the tits off it - though to be fair it was perfectly tractable and civilised if you didn't, it just drove like an ordinary two litre hatchback at low revs. I quite liked that split personality. The ride quality was harsh, the tyre noise on the motorway was poor and the stereo was crap. None of that really bothered me. Even the much maligned steering ceased to be an irritation once I'd lived with it for a while - I had a 306XSi before it, so the contrast was noticeable, but you get used to it. I liked the fact that it encouraged you to take it by the scruff, I liked the pointy front end and throttle sensitivity and I never once mourned the lack of toys. Maybe if I'd bought it to commute through town traffic I'd have had a different view.
The EP3 was certainly flawed, but as a package it was what I really wanted at the time. In terms of concept, if not quite in execution, it was perfect. I'd wanted a hot Honda for years after reading reviews of the old Civic VTi when insuring one of the damn things would have been too expensive, so when the Type-R came out, Bulgin and the other CAR writers had already sold it to me:
I bought one new in 2004 and found it a very good hhot hatch. The last hot hatch prior to that had been an R5 GT Turbo 10 years before but it was made of tin foil though otherwise a delight.
I confess the Honda did occasionally strike me as being a bit of a "white good" but the thing is the engine was fabulous, the sets excellent, the gearshift alone worth the purchase price and I didn't find it hard to place at all. It was a swift car and I don't really understand the claim you have to drive it like a mentalist because it's a perfectly respectable 2.0 before the VTEC clicks in. It also cruised along a doubtless foreign motorway in the early hours of the morning at a 110mph cruise without being too noisy or dull.
Overall, whatever it's shortcomings, it had great storage space and did everything a hot hatch should do well. The alternative was a crappy Focus ST170 since we required a modicum of passenger space though this did prove it's downfall as the seats largely blocked entry to the back seats and was hopeless for a child seat.
I confess the Honda did occasionally strike me as being a bit of a "white good" but the thing is the engine was fabulous, the sets excellent, the gearshift alone worth the purchase price and I didn't find it hard to place at all. It was a swift car and I don't really understand the claim you have to drive it like a mentalist because it's a perfectly respectable 2.0 before the VTEC clicks in. It also cruised along a doubtless foreign motorway in the early hours of the morning at a 110mph cruise without being too noisy or dull.
Overall, whatever it's shortcomings, it had great storage space and did everything a hot hatch should do well. The alternative was a crappy Focus ST170 since we required a modicum of passenger space though this did prove it's downfall as the seats largely blocked entry to the back seats and was hopeless for a child seat.
nick-elise said:
I agree but what about the renault sport offerings, Ive had 172/182/197 and preferred them all to the Civic, the suspension and steering was far better in my opinion than the Civic and they still give you the scalpel sharpness of a screaming na hatch?
I was referring to the RenaultSport stuff there. The 182 and 172 are fine competition for the EP3 if you're after something a little softer riding and more relaxed to drive. The 197 I thought was a real mr. Blobby offering and not fit to be compared to the ealier Clios, never mind the EP3. 
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