RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Honda Civic Type R (EP3)
Discussion
Jonny TVR said:
when new I was considering this and the Seat Leon Cupra R. I chose the latter and didn't regret it the 3 years I had it.
A friend of mine had a tuned Leon Cupra R (doing about 265-270bhp) before he bought an EP3. The Leon was stunning in that it was incredibly fast and didn't torque steer a great deal, but even on the coilovers his had, with the geometry set up, the Civic Type R still feels more accurate and sharp. And the interior materials are much higher quality than the Leon's were. The Leon was cool though, it could feel much more relaxed at a cruise and yet tremendously fast when you put your foot down. Overall, I like both of them equally though I don't find it hard to say that the Civic is, overall, the better car across the board. It's also been more reliable too, but I would expect that of a Honda.I can't agree more - I test drove one after owning an ITR for a couple of years thinking it would be more of the same and was hugely disappointed in how wrong I was. Where the ITR just flowed and only grumbled just a little pulling away gently in first the CTR just felt ham-fisted and drab to drive. I'd driven a Clio Sport 172 earlier in the day and while I'd hated the gearshift on (I was subsequently persuaded that it was just a bad one) the car itself just worked as intended with plenty of poke and sublime handling, the sort of handling I'd come to expect from my Integra just with out the Jeckyl and Hyde VTEC switchover.
The more recent Civic was actually more pleasant to drive when I finally managed to get a drive but lacked the edgy feel of earlier models, the EP3 certainly had that edge but only when being hustled and on the right bit of road.
So, my opinion? You are absolutely bang-on about the Civic, go drive an Integra instead!
The more recent Civic was actually more pleasant to drive when I finally managed to get a drive but lacked the edgy feel of earlier models, the EP3 certainly had that edge but only when being hustled and on the right bit of road.
So, my opinion? You are absolutely bang-on about the Civic, go drive an Integra instead!
I am a steering/chassis rather than an engine man and fully agree with CH on this. Drove one briefly and found the steering inert and chassis lacking subtlety. Not as appealing as the equivalent French car (306 Rallye/Clio 182) in any way.
Also very disappointing after the Integra R DC2 of a few years earlier (and which I currently drive and love). This car has a diff as standard, is far lighter (1101 Kg) so the Vtec's lack of torque is less apparent and the whole demanour of the car is more focussed. Steering is still a bit light when pootling about but comes alive with some force through the diff. In some ways, it is a lighter, harder Focus RS or R26.
Also very disappointing after the Integra R DC2 of a few years earlier (and which I currently drive and love). This car has a diff as standard, is far lighter (1101 Kg) so the Vtec's lack of torque is less apparent and the whole demanour of the car is more focussed. Steering is still a bit light when pootling about but comes alive with some force through the diff. In some ways, it is a lighter, harder Focus RS or R26.
Carless Fury said:
There speaks a someone who doesn't bother to read articles before commenting on them.
Not at all, it is/was a "Hot Hatch".....what did Chris Harris expect from it????IMHO he was criticising the EP3 for not being something it was never meant to be.
It does exactly what it says on the tin
I'm kinda with Harris here.
Type-R is great at 8-10 10th's down a country lane (with decent tarmac) but I found it far too firm for everyday driving & on motorway you had to drop two cogs to overtake anything.
So not the most relaxing vehicle.
Also, (and I can see this has come up already) I can't help drive all V-tec engined cars like I stole them as all the fun is wedged in the top 30% of the rev range.
My friend has had an '02 plate one since new and adores it, and I can see why. But it's not my thing.
Type-R is great at 8-10 10th's down a country lane (with decent tarmac) but I found it far too firm for everyday driving & on motorway you had to drop two cogs to overtake anything.
So not the most relaxing vehicle.
Also, (and I can see this has come up already) I can't help drive all V-tec engined cars like I stole them as all the fun is wedged in the top 30% of the rev range.
My friend has had an '02 plate one since new and adores it, and I can see why. But it's not my thing.
Chris, I wholeheartedly agree with you. "w
kypants" is the only word I can use to describe how ste I thought the CTR (MY2005) I had, was. It's only redeeming feature was the seats and the engine if you were in a playful mood.
Rattly windows, rattly doors, rattly fillings out 3 lots of suspension on the front under warrenty, of which one spring popped out whilst hooning down a country lane and hitting a shallow pothole on a fairly tight bend, which was quite interesting to say the least.
Utter utter ste, would only ever set one on fire.....then lets not bother mentioning the customer service from their staff at the garage. s.
kypants" is the only word I can use to describe how ste I thought the CTR (MY2005) I had, was. It's only redeeming feature was the seats and the engine if you were in a playful mood.Rattly windows, rattly doors, rattly fillings out 3 lots of suspension on the front under warrenty, of which one spring popped out whilst hooning down a country lane and hitting a shallow pothole on a fairly tight bend, which was quite interesting to say the least.
Utter utter s
te, would only ever set one on fire.....then lets not bother mentioning the customer service from their staff at the garage. s.Edited by WorAl on Wednesday 11th January 13:16
Baryonyx said:
Poor show, the EP3 is one of the best handling hot hatches around. Primiarly because it never concerned itself with the developing power wars of the time, it just did it's own thing with a manic engine and a sense of purpose. I often think of it as a scalpel of the hot hatches of the time, when everyone else seemed to intent on developing and perecting the sledgehammer.
Often, the VTEC engine is a source of a criticism, yet it is what it is. I suspect years of driving turbo powered cars (and also sadly, diesels) has made people lazy to the extent some have forgotten how to use a gearbox, or are not concerned with 'the right gear', only 'the gear I'm in'. The EP3 demands attention, and it demands some input from the driver to get the best from it, which is why I think it's found such favour as a drivers car. The whole experience is so much better when the car demands something back, and in this case, it is the willingness to take the car by the scruff of it's neck and rev it hard. I don't think it's particularly lazy below the VTEC range, but the explosive noise and power when the new cam profile engages is as addictive as any turbo spooling up and throwing you down a road!
Similarly, it's not a car I'd recommend for someone who wants to pootle to the shops and have the occasional blast down a B road in, because it the Civic Type R demands that you drive it hard everywhere. For a petrolhead though, that is perhaps one of it's most charming qualities; namely that it inspires the driver to give it some leather.
I also take issue with the comments about it's handling. While I'm far more familiar with the post-facelift version, I have always thought of it as being a very sharp, accurate hot hatch. Hence 'the scalpel', cutting and slicing through B roads where more clumsy rivals like the Focus ST and Astra VXR just try to force their way down on the back of a turbo-charged wave of power. The Civic Type R is the perfect antidote to hot hatch drivers who are becoming lazy, or starting to feel jaded with the power wars. Of it's time, it was my favourite NA hot hatch (better than the Clios of the day, IME). Though I'll always love turbo powered hot hatches too, the appeal of the Civic Type R cannot be denied.
Often, the VTEC engine is a source of a criticism, yet it is what it is. I suspect years of driving turbo powered cars (and also sadly, diesels) has made people lazy to the extent some have forgotten how to use a gearbox, or are not concerned with 'the right gear', only 'the gear I'm in'. The EP3 demands attention, and it demands some input from the driver to get the best from it, which is why I think it's found such favour as a drivers car. The whole experience is so much better when the car demands something back, and in this case, it is the willingness to take the car by the scruff of it's neck and rev it hard. I don't think it's particularly lazy below the VTEC range, but the explosive noise and power when the new cam profile engages is as addictive as any turbo spooling up and throwing you down a road!
Similarly, it's not a car I'd recommend for someone who wants to pootle to the shops and have the occasional blast down a B road in, because it the Civic Type R demands that you drive it hard everywhere. For a petrolhead though, that is perhaps one of it's most charming qualities; namely that it inspires the driver to give it some leather.
I also take issue with the comments about it's handling. While I'm far more familiar with the post-facelift version, I have always thought of it as being a very sharp, accurate hot hatch. Hence 'the scalpel', cutting and slicing through B roads where more clumsy rivals like the Focus ST and Astra VXR just try to force their way down on the back of a turbo-charged wave of power. The Civic Type R is the perfect antidote to hot hatch drivers who are becoming lazy, or starting to feel jaded with the power wars. Of it's time, it was my favourite NA hot hatch (better than the Clios of the day, IME). Though I'll always love turbo powered hot hatches too, the appeal of the Civic Type R cannot be denied.
10 Pence Short said:
I ran one for 125,000 miles in just under two years.
Honda made life difficult for themselves in a few areas:
1) The suspension was firmer than it needed to be. At 1200kgs, it's not a heavy car. The compliance that made the Integra (DC2) flow at 50% fun-speed was missing, and for no apparent reason. The rear in particular was just a mismatch of damping and springs that meant it only came to life at a full heave
2) The front end. The JDM version (also built in Swindon alongside the EU version) was fitted with a similar limited slip differential to the Integra. In the Integra, slow speed, low gear corners were as entertaining as the fast ones, as the car would tighten its line under throttle and power out of a corner faster than a black man at Anfield. For reasons that I assume are bean counting, the powers that be decided the EU version didn't need one- they were wrong
3) Tyres. A symptom of the overly stiff suspension was a reliance on the Bridgestone RE040. The stiff sidewalls were required to make the whole thing work and only added to the problems building above the contact patch. Try using an alternative contemporary of the car, such as Goodyear Eagle GSD3s, and the car was ruined- tramlining, sniffing across the road left and right like George Michael in a room full of naked bums.
4) Steering. Honda used the EP series Civic as it's first foray into mass producing an electric rack. Sadly the run through the motor seemed to remove that last bit of communication, as well as being a terribly unreliable system as a whole.
To be fair, the car was fantastic fun, and amazing value when it came out. I suspect, given the same tyres and contact patch as the current crop, it would hold its own on track and probably beat Honda's later effort. But no car is perfect, and certainly no hot hatch- which is exactly as it should be.
These two posts say what I feel on the matter. Honda did what they felt was best, the Civic isn't as good as it could have been, the leccy rack and LSD let it down but they're finer points. It's still ultimatly a 2L hatchback for pootling and then a hot hatch when on a differnt cam, it's a nice quality in a car. Honda made life difficult for themselves in a few areas:
1) The suspension was firmer than it needed to be. At 1200kgs, it's not a heavy car. The compliance that made the Integra (DC2) flow at 50% fun-speed was missing, and for no apparent reason. The rear in particular was just a mismatch of damping and springs that meant it only came to life at a full heave
2) The front end. The JDM version (also built in Swindon alongside the EU version) was fitted with a similar limited slip differential to the Integra. In the Integra, slow speed, low gear corners were as entertaining as the fast ones, as the car would tighten its line under throttle and power out of a corner faster than a black man at Anfield. For reasons that I assume are bean counting, the powers that be decided the EU version didn't need one- they were wrong
3) Tyres. A symptom of the overly stiff suspension was a reliance on the Bridgestone RE040. The stiff sidewalls were required to make the whole thing work and only added to the problems building above the contact patch. Try using an alternative contemporary of the car, such as Goodyear Eagle GSD3s, and the car was ruined- tramlining, sniffing across the road left and right like George Michael in a room full of naked bums.
4) Steering. Honda used the EP series Civic as it's first foray into mass producing an electric rack. Sadly the run through the motor seemed to remove that last bit of communication, as well as being a terribly unreliable system as a whole.
To be fair, the car was fantastic fun, and amazing value when it came out. I suspect, given the same tyres and contact patch as the current crop, it would hold its own on track and probably beat Honda's later effort. But no car is perfect, and certainly no hot hatch- which is exactly as it should be.
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Wednesday 11th January 12:54
SliderSi said:
Also very disappointing after the Integra R DC2 of a few years earlier (and which I currently drive and love). This car has a diff as standard, is far lighter (1101 Kg) so the Vtec's lack of torque is less apparent and the whole demanour of the car is more focussed. Steering is still a bit light when pootling about but comes alive with some force through the diff. In some ways, it is a lighter, harder Focus RS or R26.
Interesting, because the EP3 has about 120lb/ft of torque per tonne, spread over 6 speeds, and the Integra has 118 spread over 5.Having owned both over considerable miles (the Civic first, then the Integra), I'd argue there wasn't a huge difference over the two, other than in the Integra you were always a bit further from being in the ideal gear.
From my limited experience with a friends one of these it was the engine that stuck out the most. I remember being distinctly nonplussed about the handling and overall package, but like I said limited experience here.
As for the another FWD bashing article?! If CH was really bashing FWDs do you think he would be singing the praises of a 306?!
As for the another FWD bashing article?! If CH was really bashing FWDs do you think he would be singing the praises of a 306?!
SliderSi said:
I am a steering/chassis rather than an engine man and fully agree with CH on this. Drove one briefly and found the steering inert and chassis lacking subtlety. Not as appealing as the equivalent French car (306 Rallye/Clio 182) in any way.
This. It's been quite a while since I drove the EP3, but the impression that stuck that it was a bit cold and 'digital', handled accurately but was devoid of steering feel in a time when you could still buy any number of classic French hatches (before PSA lost the plot) that didn't have 200 horses but felt big-hearted, fluent and engaging; everything the Civic was not IMO. I can't get my head round folk thinking it was too firm etc. maybe it's because folk have had they're experience watered down through a golf GTI or something. Crashing and chattering teeth over pot holes is part of owning a focused sports car. The S2000 I had after the EP3 was even worse. Worse STILL was my pals Z3m roadster.
Let's make no mistake, you were paying £16k for that excellent engine but I think (and Hondas mid noughties surge in popularity) would suggest they hit mostly the right buttons.
I would like to see a hot hatch as good as this was to go on sale again tomorrow for £16k. Those new meganes are knocking on the door of £28k
Let's make no mistake, you were paying £16k for that excellent engine but I think (and Hondas mid noughties surge in popularity) would suggest they hit mostly the right buttons.
I would like to see a hot hatch as good as this was to go on sale again tomorrow for £16k. Those new meganes are knocking on the door of £28k
elementad said:
I can't get my head round folk thinking it was too firm etc. maybe it's because folk have had they're experience watered down through a golf GTI or something. Crashing and chattering teeth over pot holes is part of owning a focused sports car.
Um, if that were true the Lotus Elise would be rubbish and an Audi A4 S-Line on the biggest available wheel/tyre combo would be the epitome of a hardcore sports car. 
Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 11th January 13:23
doogz said:
A mate worked at Honda. I spoke to him at the time about the JDM-LSD EUDM-OD thing, and apparently roads in the UK were deemed to be too crap for a LSD at the time, and bumps and pot holes would cause the wheel to be snatched out the hands of less capable drivers, whereas in Japan, the general standard of their roads is much higher, and this wasn't deemed to be an issue there.
Nope. The issue was cost and where they wanted to put it in the marketplace.Honda were striving at the time to lower the average age of the Civic buyer. If they fitted the EU Civic with the same interior and mechanical setup of the JDM car, it would be banging on the door of the £20,000+ price that adorned the Integra-R. Sales would not have materialised in the same way, and the marketing impact of the car would not have flowed downwards as it might.
Ironically, the JDM model, which featured lots of expensive goodies, such as the LSD (not to mention more hardcore engine and gearbox), sold in Japan for about £13,000.
900T-R said:
elementad said:
I can't get my head round folk thinking it was too firm etc. maybe it's because folk have had they're experience watered down through a golf GTI or something.
Um, if that were true the Lotus Elise would be rubbish and an Audi A4 S-Line on the biggest available wheel/tyre combo would be the epitome of a hardcore sports car. te R to an Impreza WRX, then to a Cerbera, both of which had better ride qualities.....neither spat their suspension out either.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff