RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Honda Civic Type R (EP3)
Discussion
Awesome car i think, (never been in one mind) but from all the reviews it seems like a track day toy. Sometimes a hugely competent car built for speed can only do that.
I get the jist of chris's argument, i drive a lightly modded ibiza cupra one of the civics rival's and down country lanes it's fast and pulls through corners well and the torque makes low speed driving fun. but plonk it in a city and the suspension ruins everything. Compromises cars have to be narrow minded somewhere, clio sport fast motorway use, cupra blasting down country lanes, CTR trackday??
I get the jist of chris's argument, i drive a lightly modded ibiza cupra one of the civics rival's and down country lanes it's fast and pulls through corners well and the torque makes low speed driving fun. but plonk it in a city and the suspension ruins everything. Compromises cars have to be narrow minded somewhere, clio sport fast motorway use, cupra blasting down country lanes, CTR trackday??
Have to say I loved every bit of mine. Sure it had it's foibles but no car is perfect and for the price (I paid £14.5k for a pre reg) I certainly wasn't going to complain.
Perhaps living in MK made it all the better as you could stretch the engine at will and make use of our lovely smooth roads and chicanes, er roundabouts. Yet around town and the estates it was as docile as a Honda Jazz.
People often slated the engine for lack of low end torque but I think these people were incapable of understanding 2.0 litre NA engines, for which it fared very well and performed better than most. Sure it hasn't got the shove of an Impreza but that's not the point of an engine like this and why Honda engineered one of the best gearboxes around.
Perhaps living in MK made it all the better as you could stretch the engine at will and make use of our lovely smooth roads and chicanes, er roundabouts. Yet around town and the estates it was as docile as a Honda Jazz.
People often slated the engine for lack of low end torque but I think these people were incapable of understanding 2.0 litre NA engines, for which it fared very well and performed better than most. Sure it hasn't got the shove of an Impreza but that's not the point of an engine like this and why Honda engineered one of the best gearboxes around.
doogz said:
Baryonyx said:
Poor show, the EP3 is one of the best handling hot hatches around.
Better than an Integra? 106? 306? 205? Saxo? Previous shape Civic? various Clios? Focus?Don't think so.
I owned an EP3 for just over 2 years, and in that time it just got better and better. There are a few small annoyances, on days when you're not really in the mood to drive quickly it can become a touch tiresome. But for the other 300 days of the year when I was in the mood to go and ring it's neck on the long way home from work it was perfect. It may not have been the quickest in a straight line, but it was by far the most fun to drive. How anyone complains of understeer in this car is beyond me, I always found it be pretty tail happy for a front driver and that in turn just helped the front end tuck in even more.
Seem to be a lot of people saying A is great but B is crap, and someone else saying the reverse... surely there's a lot of horses for courses here?
Some people like the revvy but demanding nature of the V-techs, others prefer the not-as-revvy but also-inspiring-at-low-revs of other engines, and to some it's appealing that you can be lazy with turbos when off-the-pace (though I prefer "relaxed" :-) but there's the power there when you need it.
I never drove a CTR, but I was considering an Integra DC5 which would have been my choice of the 2 at the time- I got driven around in a couple that had had the Vtech limit moved as low as possible and it appeared to much improve the engine's useability.
As it was I test drove an Asbo and just felt instantly at home so bought one of them instead.
Not sure what my point is. I think I'm saying Chris, it's ok not to like it just don't slag it off for the sake of it because it's still a great car!
Some people like the revvy but demanding nature of the V-techs, others prefer the not-as-revvy but also-inspiring-at-low-revs of other engines, and to some it's appealing that you can be lazy with turbos when off-the-pace (though I prefer "relaxed" :-) but there's the power there when you need it.
I never drove a CTR, but I was considering an Integra DC5 which would have been my choice of the 2 at the time- I got driven around in a couple that had had the Vtech limit moved as low as possible and it appeared to much improve the engine's useability.
As it was I test drove an Asbo and just felt instantly at home so bought one of them instead.
Not sure what my point is. I think I'm saying Chris, it's ok not to like it just don't slag it off for the sake of it because it's still a great car!
The civic type r (ep3) was the best selling civic of the range when it was released.
It went like s
t off a stick, handled well, and cost less than any of its rivals.
It can return over 30mpg, do nearly 150 mph and can do 0-100 in the same time as an impreza wrx of the same vintage (16 seconds)
You can pick up a used well kept 2001 model for 3k.
What was not to like Chris?
If your still not sure or want a reminder drive, pm me and you can have a go in my 2002 model for a feature.
It went like s
t off a stick, handled well, and cost less than any of its rivals. It can return over 30mpg, do nearly 150 mph and can do 0-100 in the same time as an impreza wrx of the same vintage (16 seconds)
You can pick up a used well kept 2001 model for 3k.
What was not to like Chris?
If your still not sure or want a reminder drive, pm me and you can have a go in my 2002 model for a feature.
I found that the EP3 was a huge dissapointed after a DC2. The suspension was crashy and it lacked the bite on turn in that made the teg so much fun. They are very tough little cars and can be modified to hell and back but they feel to me like a stock platform with a rocket up its bum rather than an engineered product? Honda missed the trick with this one and to a degree with the S2K, both had odd chassis setup which hobbled the masterpieces under their bonnets. Although I would take either over their current range of blandness....perhaps they were losing interest?
Andy ap said:
clio sport fast motorway use, cupra blasting down country lanes, CTR trackday??
You rate the Clio for motorway driving and the Ibiza for b-road blasting?Personally I'd say the other way round makes more sense. The Civic is the perfect ideal, it's fine on the motorway, maybe a touch high revving but then it makes up for it when it gets twisty. The Ibiza doesn't really do it for me though tbh, not sure why I just feel it lacks something.
All just my opinion though.
doogz said:
Odd, how a minute ago, you said you assumed it was due to beancounting. Then i corrected you, with info from someone that worked there at the time. Then all of a sudden, you actually knew the answer.
How much more do you think an ATB diff costs compared to an open differential?
When I was hanging around the Honda side of things, I knew lots of people all over the place. It doesn't really matter whether you like/believe what I'm saying. You follow me around like an autistic cousin at a wedding, but that's your choice.How much more do you think an ATB diff costs compared to an open differential?
The truth is, Honda at that time were on a specific marketing push and the EP3 was built to a very specific price. They didn't fit the LSD because they didn't need that cost to make the marketing work.
I was too busy buying JDM bits out the back of a shed at Swindon to know who your mate was, but good luck to you.
Fatman2 said:
People often slated the engine for lack of low end torque but I think these people were incapable of understanding 2.0 litre NA engines, for which it fared very well and performed better than most.
OK, back around the turn of the century the 2 litre turbo engine wasn't the default choice for hot hatches - either they were 2 litre normally aspirated or the VAG 1.8 litre 5 valve turbo - most of the latter in 150 or 180 bhp trim. I can only say that compared to the competition at the time, the Honda felt very flat and unresponsive below the VTEC zone (which incidentally was narrow enough to 'fall out of' with every upshift unless you red-lined it every single time - something I'm not prepared to do in a road car, it's not like you're not drawing enough attention to yourself as-is).
For those stating that you have to drop it a cog for overtaking or to get it going. What exactly do you expect in an NA car. What would happen in a Clio 182, the 306 Rallye, or any other NA car? Stop comparing the CTR to fking Forced induction cars when it comes to torque. Its fking obvious and we dont need to hear it. If you fancy the low down lazy grunt then why bother driving any NA four pot?
king Forced induction cars when it comes to torque. Its fking obvious and we dont need to hear it. If you fancy the low down lazy grunt then why bother driving any NA four pot?CH said:
I remember driving a late pre-production version of the Civic Type R which was delivered to the Autocar office. The engine was insane
CH said:
Why did I struggle with it and all the full production test cars I drove?
Because the pre-production models were full-JDM spec, whereas the production models were the watered-down crap that Honda Of The UK decided that's all we were worthy of.The Japs keep the best cars for themselves....if you want a proper Type R, you buy JDM.
Chris Peacock said:
The civic type r (ep3) was the best selling civic of the range when it was released.
It went like st off a stick, handled well, and cost less than any of its rivals.
It can return over 30mpg, do nearly 150 mph and can do 0-100 in the same time as an impreza wrx of the same vintage (16 seconds)
You can pick up a used well kept 2001 model for 3k.
What was not to like Chris?
If your still not sure or want a reminder drive, pm me and you can have a go in my 2002 model for a feature.
That's why the car was so popular. But if you are after feel and chassis ability, it was lacking. Depends what you look for in your wheels. Cheap speed is not necessarily my thing.It went like s
t off a stick, handled well, and cost less than any of its rivals. It can return over 30mpg, do nearly 150 mph and can do 0-100 in the same time as an impreza wrx of the same vintage (16 seconds)
You can pick up a used well kept 2001 model for 3k.
What was not to like Chris?
If your still not sure or want a reminder drive, pm me and you can have a go in my 2002 model for a feature.
St John Smythe said:
Not being funny but driving one briefly and 'thrashing the tits off it' isn't really a comprehensive test of a car tbh.
I have driven one for 90 thousand miles , 6 years of ownership , that must tell you something.It loves having its ass thrashed and goes like a swiss watch.
If you cant have fun in one then buy a pulse detector.
Chris,
Had one for a year, loved it. Engine and gearbox were just awesome, lift off oversteer was also lots of fun.
However, just as you have said after that year I longed for something that I could drive comfortably when I was tired or not in 'that' mood. I remember it being a little too stiff or underdamped for B roads and I remember the steering being a little numb but I don't remember having any real problems positioning it, saying that one of the biggest problems were the Bridgestone RE040s.
I don't remember it being that gutless whilst out of Vtec, no more so than the 306 you compare it to anyway.
I guess it all depends what you want in your hot hatch, the split personality disorder or the out and out lunatic asylum experience.
Comparing it to the Mk5 GTI I'm using as a Daily that seems to be raved about it was a better hot hatch imho, far more entertaining anyway.
Had one for a year, loved it. Engine and gearbox were just awesome, lift off oversteer was also lots of fun.
However, just as you have said after that year I longed for something that I could drive comfortably when I was tired or not in 'that' mood. I remember it being a little too stiff or underdamped for B roads and I remember the steering being a little numb but I don't remember having any real problems positioning it, saying that one of the biggest problems were the Bridgestone RE040s.
I don't remember it being that gutless whilst out of Vtec, no more so than the 306 you compare it to anyway.
I guess it all depends what you want in your hot hatch, the split personality disorder or the out and out lunatic asylum experience.
Comparing it to the Mk5 GTI I'm using as a Daily that seems to be raved about it was a better hot hatch imho, far more entertaining anyway.
Flawless Victory said:
Because the pre-production models were full-JDM spec, whereas the production models were the watered-down crap that Honda Of The UK decided that's all we were worthy of.
The Japs keep the best cars for themselves....if you want a proper Type R, you buy JDM.
I think after the Isle of Man event, Journos would do well to be wary of trusting anything Honda until they could test a full production version!The Japs keep the best cars for themselves....if you want a proper Type R, you buy JDM.
Must be a Japanese thing. One minute they weren't entering WWII, the next Pearl Harbour looks like Jade Goodie's bedroom.
900T-R said:
You'd have enough low-end grunt not to be embarrassed by shopping trolleys in traffic and a nice gutsy midrange. 
No, you'd have about the same or less torque in any given rev/gear situation in both of those compared to the Civic.Where do these misconceptions come from (apart from the Civic having a fantastic top end)?
frankthetank2 said:
Did you ever try a facelifted version (post 03 from memory) Much improved handling IMO.
I had a 51 reg EP3 and test drove the facelift. From memory, all they had done was lower it 15mm, decrease the power steering assist, nail astro turf to the wheel arches and make it uglier. It felt no different. Same synthetic steering feel, same under damped front end and oversprung and overdamped rear. Same wheelspin on the slightest whiff of a damp surface. Same understeer that rapidly turned into uncatchable oversteer if you lifted off to sharply. Same rattling interior. It was the car that finally shattered my previous devotion to Honda. It was also the least reliable car I'd owned up until I bought a 2009 Impreza STI....Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff