RE: Lotus parent company sold

[groomi]

Marwood79 said:

If I was Tata/JLR i'd be watching this very closely - could be a bargain on the way - particularly if you can keep Behr and his team whilst perhaps halving the current model range. Think of all that lovely Lotus engineering goop all over the CX-16...

If Lotus are offloaded by the new owners, then no new owner is going to want to continue to bankroll Bahar's plans either. By the time any deal is completed, to back out will practically kill the company anyway, so it's a lose/lose scenario for the likes of Tata.

I suspect however that we've just taken a step closer to a scenario predicted by many on PH over the last few months. Tony Fernandes is probably rubbing his lucky sixpence as I type this...

[will261058]

Ozzie Osmond said:

ravon said:

Had assumed they might have had something to do with the gear linkages on the Lotus that I've enjoyed over the years : Esprit's S3, S4 and S4S, Elan SE Turbo, and Elan S2, all of which have a pretty poor gear shift

I think you'll find it's inevitable to lose some "precision" of feel when the gearbox is located remotely at the back of the car as opposed to right under the gear lever. Similarly the FWD Elan albeit at the other end of the car.

Its correct to say that feel will be lost when the box is not directly below the stick but it is possible to engineer feel back in. On an aircraft where the action can be hundreds of feet away from the input, the "feel" is engineered back into the system so the pilot has an idea what is happening.

[MX7]

RoySlater said:

I have just seen Lotus are setting up a Lotus shop in regent street to sell genuine Lotus merchandise. The sound bites continue... yet car sales (in the Uk, if that's any indication) dropped 42% last year...

So does that mean that Lotus don't have a dealer within the M25, but have a shop where you can buy all the Lotus tat that you could want?

While tat can be profitable, I can't think of another car manufacturer who owns a shop exclusively for tat.

[madmover]

I think this is potentially a bad sign for lotus, personally I cant see them keeping them going and the inevitable will happen but thats just my views. Would be a real shame to lose such a great brand but there is only so long before you have to draw a line. When its been a financial burden for that long and produced so little in the way of development/innovative cars I think the end is near or at least they will be sold to someone else. They have said about the new models they intend on releasing but personally I dont think they have spent anywhere near enough on development of these cars to be competitive with the rest of the market....Only time will tell! Just my thoughts and I hope im wrong but i think this is a bad move for lotus! :/

[Camry_Man]

MX7 said:

So does that mean that Lotus don't have a dealer within the M25, but have a shop where you can buy all the Lotus tat that you could want?

While tat can be profitable, I can't think of another car manufacturer who owns a shop exclusively for tat.

here you go

[Gizmo!]

This has been coming for some time. The only real unknown is whether Fernandes would take it off their hands.

I wonder how much of that 57% he has...

[ESOG]

First of all I never really paid any attention to the Proton emblem, looks sort of like a Thundercats cum Transformers emblem

2ndly, I am getting that queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach again about the future of Lotus. I really hope this isnt the end of the road for them or their 'ambitious' plans, as much as I don't agree with the direction they plan to go. But how lucky can one semi-small car manufacturer get, right? I mean, think of how many bullets Lotus has dodged since its slide downwards. But law of averages would suggest that their luck may be running out, no?

Thankfully each time Lotus has been on the chopping block there had been someone with seemingly bottomless pockets that believed enough in their philosophy and innovation to try and turn them into a profit making machine. But who will come to their rescue this time? GM? No. Romano Artiolo for round two perhaps? Doubtful. Ford or Carrol Shelby? Again, doubtful.

Surely there is someone who cares enough or believes enough to take a chance. On the other side, law of averages may also suggest that it is time for Lotus to rise to the position they so deserve. My worry is that the pretentious and unattractive (IMO) plans for the near future may be a total put off to any prospective investors/buyers.

Its strange to say this, but I almost feel like I cannot 'see' the Lotus of Bahars vision. I feel like it is not in their destiny. Maybe Lotus would be better off as Britains backyard supercar and return to a limited number of cars that give the rare but willing enthusiast what they want that no other company offers. Light weight, fun, trackable near kit supercars. Bring back the glory days, a TRUE return to their roots. Forget trying to catapult Lotus into a global brand on the presigious level of the all ego feeding exotica such as Lambo and Ferrari.

I would rather Lotus be a company cloaked in obscurity to the global idiots of the world who have too much money over good taste and sense, and build cars of their roots and around their core philosophy. On the level of TVR. And no one says Lotus cant keep doing what they do best as a completely separate company, ENGINEERING! I'm sure with the talent and innovation Lotus Engineers bring to the table, not to mention experience, there is a profitable company there. And with the way the future is looking and the way car manufacturers are turning, the Engineering philosophy of Lotus has never made more good sense than it does now. Who knows, it could produce well enough profit to fund building a 3 model lineup such as the Elise, Elan and Exige, maybe bring back the Europa and Elite in a variant all on a very limited production scale. I mean st, lets face facts here, Porsche sells more 911's in ONE YEAR than the Esprit sold in all its years beginning at its reincarnation up until its death FFS!!!!

I swear to God I have seen atleast 10 Lamborghinis and 20 ferraris in the past year and have not seen ONE, not ONE goddamned Esprit on the road. NOT ONE.... Okay, wait, there was ONE. And it was a 1987.

[JohnG1]

hellem said:

Hold on Lotus is who you know Lotus cars, then we have all heard of Lotus Engineering which by the nature of their (mostly confidential)business subject to strong variation of turnover/profit. The third part of their busines is Lotus Light Weight Structures based in Worcester. Ex Holden Aluminium Worcester Ltd ex Hydro. They manufacture not only the Lotus chassis but also Aston Martins and also McLaren front and rear chassis outrigers and many more automotive Aluminium bonded structures. So Lotus is bigger then car production (and their MD's hot air!).

Really - Lotus manufacture the V/H platform chassis for AML?

I know that Lotus did a substantial part of the design work for V/H but are you sure about this???

[redseal]

Long shot but Richard Branson anyone? Clearly interested in motorsport, put some money into F1, deep pockets, British...

Virgin Lotus F1? And you thought we'd finished with the F1 Lotus confusion

Or another one - McLaren Automotive buys them out. Already working together on parts as someone mentioned above. Ron Denis reigns in Bahar and co, stops them trying to boil the ocean and focus them on a smaller set of vehicles and at the same time, adds some useful? people to the McLaren management team.

Would also open up some interest options for McLaren. McLaren as the halo brand, Lotus for the enthusiast sports car sector. Bring some of the perfectionism of McLaren to Lotus Cars...

[Dave8310]

I think this is the only way Lotus will go. A business that's just made an investment at that level won't tolerate losses because Lotus is a "nice name". Fact is they haven't made money for decades and Danny Bahr's approach is insane - he's living in a Ferrari dreamworld (notice the Ferrari momentos littered round his office in the recent Evo interview).

Lotus is not Ferrari. The Evora was pushing the limits of the brand, taking on 911, and it didn't succeed due to: residuals, performance, quality, dealer network. So why would a >£100k car work for Lotus?

The Evora achieved huge critical acclaim, but never translated in to sales due to people's perception of the brand, and the strength of other brands. Unfortunatley, a high percentage of people spending £60k on a car choose a car because of how it makes them feel/look (non-pistonheaders) - a status reward for all their hard work. This is why Porsche is so succesfull (excellent to drive and has the brand power, catering for all the markets) and Aston is loosing it's way (Brand power at launch, but no real dynamic credibility behind the looks so it's fizzling out as the trends move on IMO).

One of the first things Danny Bahr did was spend however many million (was it 5 mil?) resurfacing the Hethel circuit and installing an F1 pit - sign of a good CEO? What's the return on that investment? Giving Lotus Evoras to the Italian police - sound familiar?! Good promotion for the Lotus name, or a pointless excerise for Danny's personal satisfaction. You need to fill the holes in the bucket before you start trying to poor more water in the top......

Don't worry, I am not even going to mention Swissbeatz.

The worrying thing is Danny Bahr seems to be making all the decisions, signing off designs, branding, merchandise. What's the point in employing qualified and hugely experienced designers and marketers, if you can make a better decision yourself?! Just because he's in charge, doesn't mean he's the best at everything. Division of labour, specialised skills, effective delegation Danny.

It's a one man show and Proton have been funding the Danny Bahr self promotion club. Hopefully these new investors will not be charmed by his reputation (i.e. the Ferrari name) and analyse his business accumen.

Apologies for the rant. I am a Lotus owner by the way, but hopefully this comes across objective. It's not so much that I am annoyed what's happening with Lotus Cars(I wouldn't be able to afford one of their cars anyway) it's that someones shagging a British (sort of now) company with loyal staff for their own personal gain.

[RTH]

redseal said:

Or another one - McLaren Automotive buys them out. Already working together on parts as someone mentioned above. Focus them on a smaller set of vehicles and at the same time, adds some useful? people to the McLaren management team.

Would also open up some interest options for McLaren. McLaren as the halo brand, Lotus for the enthusiast sports car sector. Bring some of the perfectionism of McLaren to Lotus Cars...

That is actually not a bad idea gives them a test track too.

[kambites]

JohnG1 said:

Really - Lotus manufacture the V/H platform chassis for AML?

I think VH is VVA, or rather is one application of it? I don't actually think Lotus manufacture them (they don't even manufacture the Elise tub themselves, IIRC) but they do own the design.


If no-one else wants them, I think Lotus will end up Chinese owned. The Chinese always seem willing to spend money on European names with well known histories for their domestic market and I'd imagine that Lotus's chassis engineering know-how would be invaluable for a Chinese company who wants to have a serious go at breaking into the European markets.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 17th January 10:00

[groomi]

RTH said:

redseal said:

Or another one - McLaren Automotive buys them out. Already working together on parts as someone mentioned above. Focus them on a smaller set of vehicles and at the same time, adds some useful? people to the McLaren management team.

Would also open up some interest options for McLaren. McLaren as the halo brand, Lotus for the enthusiast sports car sector. Bring some of the perfectionism of McLaren to Lotus Cars...

That is actually not a bad idea gives them a test track too.

McLaren are building their own brand in a slow, sensible manner. Their brand stands for precision engineering and ultimate performance. There is no way they would want Lotus which as a performance brand has far more history than McLaren, nor would they want any kind of association with sloppy finish or poor reliability - both issues will dilute the McLaren brand and undermine what they are building.

[J.P.W.]

You might want to do some digging (sorry but I don't have time to right now) but DRB-Hicom owned Proton in the past, or at least a very sizeable stake - and I could have sworn it was at the time of the Lotus acquisition. Of course a lot can change in 15-odd years but they may be positively disposed towards the British offshoot.

[jazzyjeff]

MX7 said:

So does that mean that Lotus don't have a dealer within the M25,

What's happened to B&C?

[jazzyjeff]

ESOG said:

Romano Artiolo for round two perhaps? Doubtful.

Who he?

[MX7]

Camry_Man said:

MX7 said:

So does that mean that Lotus don't have a dealer within the M25, but have a shop where you can buy all the Lotus tat that you could want?

While tat can be profitable, I can't think of another car manufacturer who owns a shop exclusively for tat.

here you go

I was thinking more of a high street shop than a theme park, but fair enough.

jazzyjeff said:

What's happened to B&C?

According to Lotus, they are a Service Center, not a Dealer.

http://www.lotuscars.com/en/dealer-locator

[jazzyjeff]

Dave8310 said:

The Evora achieved huge critical acclaim, but never translated in to sales due to people's perception of the brand, and the strength of other brands. Unfortunatley, a high percentage of people spending £60k on a car choose a car because of how it makes them feel/look (non-pistonheaders) - a status reward for all their hard work. This is why Porsche is so succesfull (excellent to drive and has the brand power, catering for all the markets) and Aston is loosing it's way (Brand power at launch, but no real dynamic credibility behind the looks so it's fizzling out as the trends move on IMO).

IMO Evora has never translated into sales not so much because of people's perception of the brand, but through lack of awareness. Poll anyone who isn't a hardcore car nut and they'd probably show surprise the firm is still going.

Porsche has the success they have largely due to brand image, how well the cars drive probably has little to do with it (every Boxster I've seen recently seems to be helmed by a peroxide Bonnie Tyler lookalike with more bling on show than an Argos counter).

Aston still has a strong brand, but little money for development given the exclusivity it has tried to cultivate. Not sure where your 'no real dynamic credibility behind the looks' comment comes from, clearly you've never driven one of the Gaydon cars?

Lotus need to somehow cross over like Porsche, Maserati and Jaguar to cater both for enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts (most car buyers fall into the latter category).

[jazzyjeff]

ESOG said:

Maybe Lotus would be better off as Britains backyard supercar and return to a limited number of cars that give the rare but willing enthusiast what they want that no other company offers. Light weight, fun, trackable near kit supercars.

That's what they've been doing? Sadly it doesn't seem to have worked

[ESOG]

jazzyjeff said:

Who he?

Romani Artiolo (sp?) was the top guy (owner) at Bugatti and had Lotus after GM owned them in the 90's. He was responsible for naming the Elise after his grand daughter.