RE: Lotus parent company sold
Discussion
Camry_Man said:
MX7 said:
So does that mean that Lotus don't have a dealer within the M25, but have a shop where you can buy all the Lotus tat that you could want?
While tat can be profitable, I can't think of another car manufacturer who owns a shop exclusively for tat.
here you goWhile tat can be profitable, I can't think of another car manufacturer who owns a shop exclusively for tat.
Here we go...
"Lotus should have a smaller product range".. You mean like just selling the Elise/Exige, which nearly killed the company.. or the Esprit/Excel.. which nearly killed the company..
At the moment, they have a very solid product range, and they're only committing to releasing the Esprit this year (which is going to be a make or break product). So I really don't think there are problems with the range.
"Bahar's dream..". Oh yes, we all hate someone who sticks his neck out, pulls in respected people from across the industry and makes a genuine turn-round plan for a company that was slowly going down the pan.
"They should be a small manufacturer, selling small cheap cars". No. Really no. The world has changed. No-one can make cheap cars in a shed these days.
It's up to the team at the top to show that their plan is on track (which I believe is true) and that they have something to deliver that will change the game for Lotus. If they can't change the game, Lotus will change hands a few times until eventually it's left to die as a small brand of a global company, a badge to stick on their shopping carts.
My feeling is that the external view of what Lotus are delivering doesn't reflect what's going on within the group. We're at the early stages of a huge turn round, and it's way too early to be expecting instant results. Hopefully the new owners will agree with that and take a longer term view. If they don't, expect the company to be well and truly shafted. In the short term at least, a new owner would be very likely to disrupt all the current development work, change the line up to fit their own brand (which is why it'd be a disaster if McLaren, VW or most of the other suggested owners too control) and kill off the much needed new cars that could actually change the company's future.
If anything, the new owners should commission Lotus to use the VVA platform to develop a city car for Proton to sell. With a ultra-simple shell to keep the costs down, and a Lotus-developed hybrid or ultra-efficient drive it could be a big deal for both companies.
"Lotus should have a smaller product range".. You mean like just selling the Elise/Exige, which nearly killed the company.. or the Esprit/Excel.. which nearly killed the company..
At the moment, they have a very solid product range, and they're only committing to releasing the Esprit this year (which is going to be a make or break product). So I really don't think there are problems with the range.
"Bahar's dream..". Oh yes, we all hate someone who sticks his neck out, pulls in respected people from across the industry and makes a genuine turn-round plan for a company that was slowly going down the pan.
"They should be a small manufacturer, selling small cheap cars". No. Really no. The world has changed. No-one can make cheap cars in a shed these days.
It's up to the team at the top to show that their plan is on track (which I believe is true) and that they have something to deliver that will change the game for Lotus. If they can't change the game, Lotus will change hands a few times until eventually it's left to die as a small brand of a global company, a badge to stick on their shopping carts.
My feeling is that the external view of what Lotus are delivering doesn't reflect what's going on within the group. We're at the early stages of a huge turn round, and it's way too early to be expecting instant results. Hopefully the new owners will agree with that and take a longer term view. If they don't, expect the company to be well and truly shafted. In the short term at least, a new owner would be very likely to disrupt all the current development work, change the line up to fit their own brand (which is why it'd be a disaster if McLaren, VW or most of the other suggested owners too control) and kill off the much needed new cars that could actually change the company's future.
If anything, the new owners should commission Lotus to use the VVA platform to develop a city car for Proton to sell. With a ultra-simple shell to keep the costs down, and a Lotus-developed hybrid or ultra-efficient drive it could be a big deal for both companies.
Tuna said:
If anything, the new owners should commission Lotus to use the VVA platform to develop a city car for Proton to sell. With a ultra-simple shell to keep the costs down, and a Lotus-developed hybrid or ultra-efficient drive it could be a big deal for both companies.
Yes, they could have turned Proton into a technology standard bearer. I feel the last decade has been a lost opportunity for both parties.Alternatively they could have developed a range of volume quality cars, renamed Proton "Lotus Cars" and had an Anglo-Malaysian BMW rival. We would have all winced at the name change but the general public would have been buying the Lotus 3 series and sporty 7 series all the same.
Tuna said:
Here we go...
"Lotus should have a smaller product range".. You mean like just selling the Elise/Exige, which nearly killed the company.. or the Esprit/Excel.. which nearly killed the company..
sorry?"Lotus should have a smaller product range".. You mean like just selling the Elise/Exige, which nearly killed the company.. or the Esprit/Excel.. which nearly killed the company..
how did that nearly kill the company?
without the Elise, Lotus would have died 10+ years ago, the only income they have had since ~1997 was from selling the Elise and it's derivatives, the fact that all the money from the Elise has been pissed up several expensive walls over the years is down to bad management/lack of vision.
don't forget that back in ~1998-2000 Lotus were selling thousands of cars (some 3,000+ PA in UK alone), last year they managed what? 327 UK registrations?
(and before you go on, don't even try and make out they did not make a profit from the Elise!)
If you go back in history, the only reason the Elise ever saw the light of day was because of the way the then owner (Romano Artioli) sacked the entire board and pushed it though.
Lotus since then have just drifted along with a series of stupid projects that never actually came to market, and the only one that did was the Evora - another stunning failure (car designed by a committee anyone?).
Lotus Engineering used to be the bread-winner for the group, but the rise of several major competitors in the market have had a big impact on them, (be interesting to know if they are still profitable?)
Lotus needs a dictator to run them, much like Danny-boy is now, problem is he is the wrong person with the wrong vision.
To clarify the Lotus/AML tie-ins:
Lotus supply extrusions to AML to assemble. They supply *some* subassemblies (the facia cross-member, for example) but AML do the vast amount of assembly of DB9, Virage, DBS and Vantage. Lotus basically couldn't deal with the volume, so they backed out of it somewhere between DB9 and Vantage. Early DB9s (pre-2006ish) were supplied as tubs from Lotus Lightweight Structures/Hydro, but all Vantages were built in a brand new tub facility built at Gaydon.
Now, after all this, I can't believe no-one's asking...
Niche manufacturers don't make money on their own in these times. One hiccup in the market, and you're looking at 5 years of investment without return. In the eyes of investment bankers, that's not a good investment. That's a toy, a jewel in the crown. A PR stunt that's transparent to everyone *in* the investment business.
We now have another British niche car manufacturer (just like Aston Martin) with aluminium-extrusion-chassis-based platforms (just like Aston Martin) making less than 10k vehicles a year (just like Aston Martin) owned by an investment company (just like Aston Martin.)
The best home for a niche manufacturer is an OEM manufacturer (you only have to look at VAG, BMW, etc to figure this.) If you were up for one, why not buy both and synergise?
Lotus supply extrusions to AML to assemble. They supply *some* subassemblies (the facia cross-member, for example) but AML do the vast amount of assembly of DB9, Virage, DBS and Vantage. Lotus basically couldn't deal with the volume, so they backed out of it somewhere between DB9 and Vantage. Early DB9s (pre-2006ish) were supplied as tubs from Lotus Lightweight Structures/Hydro, but all Vantages were built in a brand new tub facility built at Gaydon.
Now, after all this, I can't believe no-one's asking...
Niche manufacturers don't make money on their own in these times. One hiccup in the market, and you're looking at 5 years of investment without return. In the eyes of investment bankers, that's not a good investment. That's a toy, a jewel in the crown. A PR stunt that's transparent to everyone *in* the investment business.
We now have another British niche car manufacturer (just like Aston Martin) with aluminium-extrusion-chassis-based platforms (just like Aston Martin) making less than 10k vehicles a year (just like Aston Martin) owned by an investment company (just like Aston Martin.)
The best home for a niche manufacturer is an OEM manufacturer (you only have to look at VAG, BMW, etc to figure this.) If you were up for one, why not buy both and synergise?
jazzyjeff said:
Lotus need to somehow cross over like Porsche, Maserati and Jaguar to cater both for enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts (most car buyers fall into the latter category).
Or succeed where they have failed in the past in building a profitable business model out of selling special cars to enthusiasts. I think Caterham and Ginetta are gearing up to eat Lotus's breakfast in that arena while Lotus builds castles in the air - if it spends too long making the move to the mainstream, it may find that its old niche has been filled in behind it.The Crack Fox said:
Scuffers said:
the Evora - another stunning failure
Do you mean a sales failure or a product failure ? I cannot comment on their sales figures but the car, in my experience, is the greatest Lotus product ever. Driven one yet ?Manual please, no silly extras, in BRG.Yes, I have driven them, yes they are not a bad car, however, it's not a great car either, it's identity is somewhat confused, it's too expensive, and too compromised.
That's not to say it does not drive very nicely, it's very obvious how much work Lotus put into making it ride and handle the way it does, and all credit to them, however, it's plainly just the wrong car in the wrong market.
Scuffers said:
Sales is the only valid measure, it could be the best engineered car on the planet, but if it does not sell, then is doomed.
Yes, I have driven them, yes they are not a bad car, however, it's not a great car either, it's identity is somewhat confused, it's too expensive, and too compromised.
That's not to say it does not drive very nicely, it's very obvious how much work Lotus put into making it ride and handle the way it does, and all credit to them, however, it's plainly just the wrong car in the wrong market.
"confused identity"? What a load of cobblers. What you mean is people who were in the market for a sharly styled and exclusive sports car that they could chuck some soft bags and kids in every now and again and cruise around or go on a banzai drive and enjoy one of the finest chassis ever on a road car were confused when they found that the car that fitted the bill wasn't a Porsche or similar so didn't buy one. The buyers were confused because they are idiots, don't blame that on Lotus other than the marketing side of things, but they are trying to correct that. It is an excellent car and way less compromised than others even. It also means that petrolheads know the Esprit will be the real deal - the jump from the Elise would have been too great a leap in faith, but people will know from the Evora, even if never becomes a sales success ,that it has succeeded in showing Lotus still have talent by the bucketload and can take the fight to the likes of Porsche and Ferrari.Yes, I have driven them, yes they are not a bad car, however, it's not a great car either, it's identity is somewhat confused, it's too expensive, and too compromised.
That's not to say it does not drive very nicely, it's very obvious how much work Lotus put into making it ride and handle the way it does, and all credit to them, however, it's plainly just the wrong car in the wrong market.
zebedee said:
"confused identity"? What a load of cobblers. What you mean is people who were in the market for a sharly styled and exclusive sports car that they could chuck some soft bags and kids in every now and again and cruise around or go on a banzai drive and enjoy one of the finest chassis ever on a road car were confused when they found that the car that fitted the bill wasn't a Porsche or similar so didn't buy one. The buyers were confused because they are idiots, don't blame that on Lotus other than the marketing side of things, but they are trying to correct that. It is an excellent car and way less compromised than others even. It also means that petrolheads know the Esprit will be the real deal - the jump from the Elise would have been too great a leap in faith, but people will know from the Evora, even if never becomes a sales success ,that it has succeeded in showing Lotus still have talent by the bucketload and can take the fight to the likes of Porsche and Ferrari.
you seem to have missed out on reality!the car has failed BECAUSE of marketing, or more to the point, whoever thought there was a market for a mid-engined 2+2.
if you go back in history, everybody that's tried to do this has failed, even Ferrari's attempt was just hopeless.
Yes, Lotus are more than capable of designing a great car, but whoever came up with the concept of the Evora just got it wrong, and no amount of cleaver engineering is going to help that.
the plain and simple truth is that it's not selling, thus no money coming in = failure.
to compare it with Porsche is interesting, the Boxter is only a 2 seater, yet it sold in the 100,s of thousands, same with the Cayman. Now, if the Evora had been launched with the Supercharged engine day one, at ~£40-50K it may well have stood a better chance, but it's history now.
Scuffers said:
Tuna said:
Here we go...
"Lotus should have a smaller product range".. You mean like just selling the Elise/Exige, which nearly killed the company.. or the Esprit/Excel.. which nearly killed the company..
sorry?"Lotus should have a smaller product range".. You mean like just selling the Elise/Exige, which nearly killed the company.. or the Esprit/Excel.. which nearly killed the company..
how did that nearly kill the company?
without the Elise, Lotus would have died 10+ years ago, the only income they have had since ~1997 was from selling the Elise and it's derivatives, the fact that all the money from the Elise has been pissed up several expensive walls over the years is down to bad management/lack of vision.
Tuna said:
What I was saying was that only having the Elise/Exige nearly killed the company. Great product, but they needed to have at least one other distinct model to sell, and needed it about ten years ago. Failing to use the money it brought in to extend the range nearly killed the company and certainly drove a couple of dealers to the wall.
Ah, got you, and yes, you are 100% right.the M250 (or something akin to it) would have been the car, and IMHO would still work today (with some updating of style etc).
if this had been launched in say 2001/2001 then a new Esprit on 2005-2006 one has to ask where the company would be by now?
I never did understand why they canned the M250, only then to spend the next 10+ years doing prototype after prototype that never actually amounted to anything, and in the mean time, kept adding crap to the Elise and pushing the price up to the point that it failed to sell too.
Scuffers said:
Ah, got you, and yes, you are 100% right.
the M250 (or something akin to it) would have been the car, and IMHO would still work today (with some updating of style etc).
if this had been launched in say 2001/2001 then a new Esprit on 2005-2006 one has to ask where the company would be by now?
I never did understand why they canned the M250, only then to spend the next 10+ years doing prototype after prototype that never actually amounted to anything, and in the mean time, kept adding crap to the Elise and pushing the price up to the point that it failed to sell too.
Totally agreed. I had a deposit down on the M250 and was gutted when they canned it.the M250 (or something akin to it) would have been the car, and IMHO would still work today (with some updating of style etc).
if this had been launched in say 2001/2001 then a new Esprit on 2005-2006 one has to ask where the company would be by now?
I never did understand why they canned the M250, only then to spend the next 10+ years doing prototype after prototype that never actually amounted to anything, and in the mean time, kept adding crap to the Elise and pushing the price up to the point that it failed to sell too.
On the other hand, there were concerns about the car and I could understand why they stopped it as it was. It had a great paper spec, great presence but the packaging needed some working on. Stopping the project seemed to knock the fight out of the company.
Tuna said:
Totally agreed. I had a deposit down on the M250 and was gutted when they canned it.
On the other hand, there were concerns about the car and I could understand why they stopped it as it was. It had a great paper spec, great presence but the packaging needed some working on. Stopping the project seemed to knock the fight out of the company.
Yup, feel very much the same....On the other hand, there were concerns about the car and I could understand why they stopped it as it was. It had a great paper spec, great presence but the packaging needed some working on. Stopping the project seemed to knock the fight out of the company.
Yes, it still needed some work (understatement I am sure), but the basics were there and would not have taken years to sort..
Just re-read this:
http://www.pistonheads.com/lotus/m250/m250-launch....
interesting the comments about 2+2 back then...
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