RE: PH Blog: M5 talks dirty
Discussion
Trommel said:
a bit fake and underhand.
Indeed it is, agree 100%. Sadly, I honestly think a lot BMW fans & more importantly the people who can afford to buy this 80K car don't actually care and even if they do they'll just ignore it, or some no doubt will try and justify the 'engine' audio sound. Sign of the times, as anything with a rounel on it now is accepted as 'Joy' not 'The Ultimate Driving Machine' according to BMW themselfs. Derestrictor said:
Let's not kid ourselves over the enthusiast (i.e. CSL type) comments versus those making commercial sense.
Even so, a pig headed aversion to such things (i.e. reality) is not, nor should it be that which informs the said enthusiast, in all his wondrous variety.
There's no doubt in my mind that the V10 was the last iteration of truly heroic ///Mness (of the sort where the guy who signed off the 'M diff' really wanted to be Herman Rarebell, drummer supreme of Germanic heavy rock) and not just because it avoided slushed changes.
It was a rare screamer and it knocked/knocks the alternatives into a cocked hat for sheer lunacy. It just did/does...
Although irretrievably biased, I'll never begin to understand the media's default ignorance of the B5 in the automatic, uber contemplations; perhaps it's mere homage to the standard mode of the supplier's triumvirate of unthinking, perennial AMG v RS v XF-R supply?
I think we have to draw certain lines in the sand across which transgression must surely be acknowledged; a place where progress is defined by technology but from what I can see, latterly amounts to a (dilutive) virtualisation of what we've already had.
Yes, this is luddism; yes, this is unrealistic but it is what the enthusiast should stick to, as a creed.
I can just about go with SMG but even then, must submit to the insistence of even that to the call of "impurity!" as it were, from the sidelines and those stick shifters of yore.
Besides, if we're less worried about the finesse of a flicked wrist or some variably effected, foot initiated clutch action, then at the day's end, Merc had the game sewn up anyway with its '65 AMG ware...
When me old mate and PH denizen, Dazren of Bristol & The West, has sporadically bemoaned the creeping abandonment of the 'old way' (manual) by Porsche, I've sometimes given his mourn minimal gravity by way of response - citing the Nissan GT-R -for example, in our joint analysis of the historically (road) indomitable (since 1995) Porsche Turbo. Yet today, in the cold light of i-Everything... his thoughts have assumed a vast weight and ominous providence.
And yes, this is after a small pootle in the Funf of Funfs.
Hail & Schnell.
Do you write/write-for Sniffpetrol?Even so, a pig headed aversion to such things (i.e. reality) is not, nor should it be that which informs the said enthusiast, in all his wondrous variety.
There's no doubt in my mind that the V10 was the last iteration of truly heroic ///Mness (of the sort where the guy who signed off the 'M diff' really wanted to be Herman Rarebell, drummer supreme of Germanic heavy rock) and not just because it avoided slushed changes.
It was a rare screamer and it knocked/knocks the alternatives into a cocked hat for sheer lunacy. It just did/does...
Although irretrievably biased, I'll never begin to understand the media's default ignorance of the B5 in the automatic, uber contemplations; perhaps it's mere homage to the standard mode of the supplier's triumvirate of unthinking, perennial AMG v RS v XF-R supply?
I think we have to draw certain lines in the sand across which transgression must surely be acknowledged; a place where progress is defined by technology but from what I can see, latterly amounts to a (dilutive) virtualisation of what we've already had.
Yes, this is luddism; yes, this is unrealistic but it is what the enthusiast should stick to, as a creed.
I can just about go with SMG but even then, must submit to the insistence of even that to the call of "impurity!" as it were, from the sidelines and those stick shifters of yore.
Besides, if we're less worried about the finesse of a flicked wrist or some variably effected, foot initiated clutch action, then at the day's end, Merc had the game sewn up anyway with its '65 AMG ware...
When me old mate and PH denizen, Dazren of Bristol & The West, has sporadically bemoaned the creeping abandonment of the 'old way' (manual) by Porsche, I've sometimes given his mourn minimal gravity by way of response - citing the Nissan GT-R -for example, in our joint analysis of the historically (road) indomitable (since 1995) Porsche Turbo. Yet today, in the cold light of i-Everything... his thoughts have assumed a vast weight and ominous providence.
And yes, this is after a small pootle in the Funf of Funfs.
Hail & Schnell.
(edited poor spelling...
)Edited by Munich on Monday 23 January 14:31
Johnboy Mac said:
Indeed it is, agree 100%. Sadly, I honestly think a lot BMW fans & more importantly the people who can afford to buy this 80K car don't actually care and even if they do they'll just ignore it, or some no doubt will try and justify the 'engine' audio sound. Sign of the times, as anything with a rounel on it now is accepted as 'Joy' not 'The Ultimate Driving Machine' according to BMW themselfs
I meant that the mechanical sound symposer was a bit fake and underhand - the computer engine noise nonsense is beneath contempt, even more so in an M car.
lippydave said:
People appear to be very "anti" the synthesised sound of the M5 via the hifi, (me included)...
But what of the fact that many modern cars, (particularly those with anodyne sounding turbo engines), are already equipped with what is known as a "symposer".
In essence a mechanical valve which alters/tunes/optimises the exhaust sound so that it is heard in the best possible light (sic) by the vehicle occupants.
Do the collective regard this as cheating too, or is this the acceptable face of audio/aural fettling?
Good question.But what of the fact that many modern cars, (particularly those with anodyne sounding turbo engines), are already equipped with what is known as a "symposer".
In essence a mechanical valve which alters/tunes/optimises the exhaust sound so that it is heard in the best possible light (sic) by the vehicle occupants.
Do the collective regard this as cheating too, or is this the acceptable face of audio/aural fettling?
The impulse to invoke Torquemada's more sinister enforcers in the combating of motoring heresy would be something to be partially reigned back by manufacturers' recourse to the physical, rather than the clearly synthetic but it's all a bit worrying.
The sound should be an after effect of a design process, not a primary impetus "because the consumer wants it," the default opt of the Buy N Large, corporate Zeitgeist, currently steering the good ship SS Humanity onto the metaphorical sandbanks of a million and one, mindlessly cued, Reverend Moon grade, affiliated, branded chants where progress is defined and justified by persistently regurgitated, quantitative factors that in print seem hard to challenge.
Until this point, I've often sided with the 'progressives' but for me, this really is a step too far.
Moreover, the steroidal disposition of the NWODBHM (New Wave of Default Brand Heavy Metal) is to me, little more than a symphony of sameness; impressive in isolation and entertaining, indubitably but there was a time (even until recently) when the various marques all went about their über briefs with distinct flavours.
It all seems to be singularly angled in the direction of fiendishly well torso'd Brylcreem fetishists with more than a passing interest in 'the outstretched 12 o'clock thrusted arm.'
It is appalling and devoid of finesse; an age pandering to the belching fart of the yawping Yahoo, rather than the thinking student of Niki The Houyhnhnm Lauda in his Mk1, 34 Fünf.
Of course, it's all to easy to rely on the ballet of what is past but there may come a point when the subtlety is so asphyxiated that the resulting trough of dead dog garnered baked beans really isn't worth noting.
The cunning plan would be to garb up in the manner of Rupert, Palatine Prince and heroic, Royalist civil war fop, stroll into your nearest stealer and demand to see the DP.
Upon his slithering emergence, slap him, twice, about the jowls and demand immediate satisfaction.
It seems unlikely that after several mortal wounds, the old werks at Garching would not be fired up and something virtuous, albeit sophisticated, would pound this way with a letter of apology from Frau Quandt and a promise never again to allow people with designer spectacles anywhere near the signing off process.
At this point, we could hopefully sheathe our cutlasses and keep our powder dry.
Derestrictor said:
Good question.
The impulse to invoke Torquemada's more sinister enforcers in the combating of motoring heresy would be something to be partially reigned back by manufacturers' recourse to the physical, rather than the clearly synthetic but it's all a bit worrying.
The sound should be an after effect of a design process, not a primary impetus "because the consumer wants it," the default opt of the Buy N Large, corporate Zeitgeist, currently steering the good ship SS Humanity onto the metaphorical sandbanks of a million and one, mindlessly cued, Reverend Moon grade, affiliated, branded chants where progress is defined and justified by persistently regurgitated, quantitative factors that in print seem hard to challenge.
Until this point, I've often sided with the 'progressives' but for me, this really is a step too far.
Moreover, the steroidal disposition of the NWODBHM (New Wave of Default Brand Heavy Metal) is to me, little more than a symphony of sameness; impressive in isolation and entertaining, indubitably but there was a time (even until recently) when the various marques all went about their über briefs with distinct flavours.
It all seems to be singularly angled in the direction of fiendishly well torso'd Brylcreem fetishists with more than a passing interest in 'the outstretched 12 o'clock thrusted arm.'
It is appalling and devoid of finesse; an age pandering to the belching fart of the yawping Yahoo, rather than the thinking student of Niki The Houyhnhnm Lauda in his Mk1, 34 Fünf.
Of course, it's all to easy to rely on the ballet of what is past but there may come a point when the subtlety is so asphyxiated that the resulting trough of dead dog garnered baked beans really isn't worth noting.
The cunning plan would be to garb up in the manner of Rupert, Palatine Prince and heroic, Royalist civil war fop, stroll into your nearest stealer and demand to see the DP.
Upon his slithering emergence, slap him, twice, about the jowls and demand immediate satisfaction.
It seems unlikely that after several mortal wounds, the old werks at Garching would not be fired up and something virtuous, albeit sophisticated, would pound this way with a letter of apology from Frau Quandt and a promise never again to allow people with designer spectacles anywhere near the signing off process.
At this point, we could hopefully sheathe our cutlasses and keep our powder dry.
So, to paraphrase, someone inside BMW needs a slap for thinking this was a good idea?The impulse to invoke Torquemada's more sinister enforcers in the combating of motoring heresy would be something to be partially reigned back by manufacturers' recourse to the physical, rather than the clearly synthetic but it's all a bit worrying.
The sound should be an after effect of a design process, not a primary impetus "because the consumer wants it," the default opt of the Buy N Large, corporate Zeitgeist, currently steering the good ship SS Humanity onto the metaphorical sandbanks of a million and one, mindlessly cued, Reverend Moon grade, affiliated, branded chants where progress is defined and justified by persistently regurgitated, quantitative factors that in print seem hard to challenge.
Until this point, I've often sided with the 'progressives' but for me, this really is a step too far.
Moreover, the steroidal disposition of the NWODBHM (New Wave of Default Brand Heavy Metal) is to me, little more than a symphony of sameness; impressive in isolation and entertaining, indubitably but there was a time (even until recently) when the various marques all went about their über briefs with distinct flavours.
It all seems to be singularly angled in the direction of fiendishly well torso'd Brylcreem fetishists with more than a passing interest in 'the outstretched 12 o'clock thrusted arm.'
It is appalling and devoid of finesse; an age pandering to the belching fart of the yawping Yahoo, rather than the thinking student of Niki The Houyhnhnm Lauda in his Mk1, 34 Fünf.
Of course, it's all to easy to rely on the ballet of what is past but there may come a point when the subtlety is so asphyxiated that the resulting trough of dead dog garnered baked beans really isn't worth noting.
The cunning plan would be to garb up in the manner of Rupert, Palatine Prince and heroic, Royalist civil war fop, stroll into your nearest stealer and demand to see the DP.
Upon his slithering emergence, slap him, twice, about the jowls and demand immediate satisfaction.
It seems unlikely that after several mortal wounds, the old werks at Garching would not be fired up and something virtuous, albeit sophisticated, would pound this way with a letter of apology from Frau Quandt and a promise never again to allow people with designer spectacles anywhere near the signing off process.
At this point, we could hopefully sheathe our cutlasses and keep our powder dry.
Derestrictor said:
Good question.
The impulse to invoke Torquemada's more sinister enforcers in the combating of motoring heresy would be something to be partially reigned back by manufacturers' recourse to the physical, rather than the clearly synthetic but it's all a bit worrying.
The sound should be an after effect of a design process, not a primary impetus "because the consumer wants it," the default opt of the Buy N Large, corporate Zeitgeist, currently steering the good ship SS Humanity onto the metaphorical sandbanks of a million and one, mindlessly cued, Reverend Moon grade, affiliated, branded chants where progress is defined and justified by persistently regurgitated, quantitative factors that in print seem hard to challenge.
Until this point, I've often sided with the 'progressives' but for me, this really is a step too far.
Moreover, the steroidal disposition of the NWODBHM (New Wave of Default Brand Heavy Metal) is to me, little more than a symphony of sameness; impressive in isolation and entertaining, indubitably but there was a time (even until recently) when the various marques all went about their über briefs with distinct flavours.
It all seems to be singularly angled in the direction of fiendishly well torso'd Brylcreem fetishists with more than a passing interest in 'the outstretched 12 o'clock thrusted arm.'
It is appalling and devoid of finesse; an age pandering to the belching fart of the yawping Yahoo, rather than the thinking student of Niki The Houyhnhnm Lauda in his Mk1, 34 Fünf.
Of course, it's all to easy to rely on the ballet of what is past but there may come a point when the subtlety is so asphyxiated that the resulting trough of dead dog garnered baked beans really isn't worth noting.
The cunning plan would be to garb up in the manner of Rupert, Palatine Prince and heroic, Royalist civil war fop, stroll into your nearest stealer and demand to see the DP.
Upon his slithering emergence, slap him, twice, about the jowls and demand immediate satisfaction.
It seems unlikely that after several mortal wounds, the old werks at Garching would not be fired up and something virtuous, albeit sophisticated, would pound this way with a letter of apology from Frau Quandt and a promise never again to allow people with designer spectacles anywhere near the signing off process.
At this point, we could hopefully sheathe our cutlasses and keep our powder dry.
The impulse to invoke Torquemada's more sinister enforcers in the combating of motoring heresy would be something to be partially reigned back by manufacturers' recourse to the physical, rather than the clearly synthetic but it's all a bit worrying.
The sound should be an after effect of a design process, not a primary impetus "because the consumer wants it," the default opt of the Buy N Large, corporate Zeitgeist, currently steering the good ship SS Humanity onto the metaphorical sandbanks of a million and one, mindlessly cued, Reverend Moon grade, affiliated, branded chants where progress is defined and justified by persistently regurgitated, quantitative factors that in print seem hard to challenge.
Until this point, I've often sided with the 'progressives' but for me, this really is a step too far.
Moreover, the steroidal disposition of the NWODBHM (New Wave of Default Brand Heavy Metal) is to me, little more than a symphony of sameness; impressive in isolation and entertaining, indubitably but there was a time (even until recently) when the various marques all went about their über briefs with distinct flavours.
It all seems to be singularly angled in the direction of fiendishly well torso'd Brylcreem fetishists with more than a passing interest in 'the outstretched 12 o'clock thrusted arm.'
It is appalling and devoid of finesse; an age pandering to the belching fart of the yawping Yahoo, rather than the thinking student of Niki The Houyhnhnm Lauda in his Mk1, 34 Fünf.
Of course, it's all to easy to rely on the ballet of what is past but there may come a point when the subtlety is so asphyxiated that the resulting trough of dead dog garnered baked beans really isn't worth noting.
The cunning plan would be to garb up in the manner of Rupert, Palatine Prince and heroic, Royalist civil war fop, stroll into your nearest stealer and demand to see the DP.
Upon his slithering emergence, slap him, twice, about the jowls and demand immediate satisfaction.
It seems unlikely that after several mortal wounds, the old werks at Garching would not be fired up and something virtuous, albeit sophisticated, would pound this way with a letter of apology from Frau Quandt and a promise never again to allow people with designer spectacles anywhere near the signing off process.
At this point, we could hopefully sheathe our cutlasses and keep our powder dry.
Patrick Bateman said:
E38Ross said:
There have been more but is he trying to say a 1m weighs more than a 760li?
With the second bit he'll be meaning they're the heaviest in their respective series.Big engines often mean more weight, but it's surprising the M models all weigh considerably more than the rest of the range.
As much as eco cars are not cool, I'm surprised BMW are not exploring the 'add lightness' mentality yet... it really will be the only way forward soon, never mind turbo charging stuff to get the performance...
Dave
leon9191 said:
Iv just bought an e39 M5 after several years of lusting after one. Dont need it, wont really use it but i love it. If the latest one doesnt do that for u maybe its missing something, mine certainly isnt.
Best possible thing you could have done, you do need it! I bought mine 2 years ago and still, this morning, it just made me smile. As soon I start it, it does it, every time! I just love the handling, the clout, the sound and the fact that (apart from the power button) its analogue.Mr Whippy said:
Exactly
Big engines often mean more weight, but it's surprising the M models all weigh considerably more than the rest of the range.
As much as eco cars are not cool, I'm surprised BMW are not exploring the 'add lightness' mentality yet... it really will be the only way forward soon, never mind turbo charging stuff to get the performance...
Dave
I wasn't sure because that would be implying the obvious Big engines often mean more weight, but it's surprising the M models all weigh considerably more than the rest of the range.
As much as eco cars are not cool, I'm surprised BMW are not exploring the 'add lightness' mentality yet... it really will be the only way forward soon, never mind turbo charging stuff to get the performance...
Dave
Havent driven the M5 (or any M5 to be exact) but i think i get the mans point and i can imagine its valid.
The new car has more power, almost too much torque (where you needed to have revs in the "old" v10) and the sound is pretty lame for such a high performance car. So lame they needed to artificially produce sounds that make it sound acceptable. Isn't that a poster for "trying too hard"?
It looks like the kid in class that always tried to have his hand up first AND highest in class when the teacher asked a question... who here didn't dislike that kid? Who thougt that kid was "unlikable"? Who thought he was trying too hard? I think quite a few.
BMW does have a history of wanting to win. That can work out great (m3 csl, 3-series racers, basically all m3's, the e60 M5) but it is also easy to become an overachiever, to try too hard to be on top.
The fact that its heavier than the e63 is remarkable, the fact that the engine is not bespoke is a missed M-gen but not a killing factor. The fact that the e63 sounds great, is a really fast saloon/wagon but its not trying to be a sportscar in a saloon outfit.... its just comfy with a big dose of sportiness. Maybe that makes it a more natural and maybe even more emotional proposition... it is possible.
The new car has more power, almost too much torque (where you needed to have revs in the "old" v10) and the sound is pretty lame for such a high performance car. So lame they needed to artificially produce sounds that make it sound acceptable. Isn't that a poster for "trying too hard"?
It looks like the kid in class that always tried to have his hand up first AND highest in class when the teacher asked a question... who here didn't dislike that kid? Who thougt that kid was "unlikable"? Who thought he was trying too hard? I think quite a few.
BMW does have a history of wanting to win. That can work out great (m3 csl, 3-series racers, basically all m3's, the e60 M5) but it is also easy to become an overachiever, to try too hard to be on top.
The fact that its heavier than the e63 is remarkable, the fact that the engine is not bespoke is a missed M-gen but not a killing factor. The fact that the e63 sounds great, is a really fast saloon/wagon but its not trying to be a sportscar in a saloon outfit.... its just comfy with a big dose of sportiness. Maybe that makes it a more natural and maybe even more emotional proposition... it is possible.
E38Ross said:
Mr Whippy said:
Exactly
Big engines often mean more weight, but it's surprising the M models all weigh considerably more than the rest of the range.
As much as eco cars are not cool, I'm surprised BMW are not exploring the 'add lightness' mentality yet... it really will be the only way forward soon, never mind turbo charging stuff to get the performance...
Dave
I wasn't sure because that would be implying the obvious Big engines often mean more weight, but it's surprising the M models all weigh considerably more than the rest of the range.
As much as eco cars are not cool, I'm surprised BMW are not exploring the 'add lightness' mentality yet... it really will be the only way forward soon, never mind turbo charging stuff to get the performance...
Dave
Again, BMW are not really wowing me with their newer models. Why are they not trying to get more performance via lower weight and modest power outputs instead?
It'd be even MORE efficient, lower CO2 yadda yadda, and more fun to drive no doubt.
Boring... sorry, it just really is. For £80,000 in this day and age I'd be expecting some really innovative engineering, partial carbon monocoque, carbon panels for all the doors, bonnets, wings, I dunno, some kinda firsts for a car of this class. But nope. Big power, big weight, big numbers.
Dave
Anyone have a response yet to evo's Barker who wrote after a rather challenging route that..
"Surprisingly, the M5’s steering feels less clean and direct and you’re more aware of the car’s weight, no matter what setting the electronic dampers are on." And yet the new M5 is even less agile than the old one which the Jaguar spanks in the b-road comparison? So the new M5 is great for fat roads at mega speed so what?
"Surprisingly, the M5’s steering feels less clean and direct and you’re more aware of the car’s weight, no matter what setting the electronic dampers are on." And yet the new M5 is even less agile than the old one which the Jaguar spanks in the b-road comparison? So the new M5 is great for fat roads at mega speed so what?
j123 said:
Anyone have a response yet to evo's Barker who wrote after a rather challenging route that..
"Surprisingly, the M5’s steering feels less clean and direct and you’re more aware of the car’s weight, no matter what setting the electronic dampers are on." And yet the new M5 is even less agile than the old one which the Jaguar spanks in the b-road comparison? So the new M5 is great for fat roads at mega speed so what?
other than the fact you just know 100% BMW wouldn't release an M5 knowing full well it couldn't go round corners as quickly as the previous generation. and the previous generation M5 was still quicker in the corners than the XF-R, you mean?"Surprisingly, the M5’s steering feels less clean and direct and you’re more aware of the car’s weight, no matter what setting the electronic dampers are on." And yet the new M5 is even less agile than the old one which the Jaguar spanks in the b-road comparison? So the new M5 is great for fat roads at mega speed so what?
edit:
is this the evo which rated the M5 = 5 stars, XFR = 4.5 stars, E63 AMG = 4.5 stars, Panamera S = 4 stars. The tagline being "The new M5 is an epic experience and a fabulous achievement!""
Edited by E38Ross on Tuesday 24th January 21:16
eROSS I'm glad you too actually are able to utilize context and reading comprehension to understand what these writers have been saying about these cars. Still think we need to work on more disambiguation though....
"other than the fact you just know 100% BMW wouldn't release an M5 knowing full well it couldn't go round corners as quickly as the previous generation. and the previous generation M5 was still quicker in the corners than the XF-R, you mean?
No thats not true, the older M5 v10 is a more agile car, no one has said other wise. I think you like many others confuse the idea of handling with that of ring times, in terms of b-road driving this steamroller effect that a monster like the new M5 can deliver can be confusing.
But really lets get back to what Barker wrote if it is true then it certainly means the newer M5 would be worse than the new M5 on those roads and conditions that he and Cross were driving on. The latter Evo test was like that of the Autocar recently where they test cars on wide open a roads, and indeed that IS where cars like the new M5 will shine. Its just that the journalists like to keep these ideas on the down low- so as not to disappoint anyone.
edit:
is this the evo which rated the M5 = 5 stars, XFR = 4.5 stars, E63 AMG = 4.5 stars, Panamera S = 4 stars. The tagline being "The new M5 is an epic experience and a fabulous achievement!""
"other than the fact you just know 100% BMW wouldn't release an M5 knowing full well it couldn't go round corners as quickly as the previous generation. and the previous generation M5 was still quicker in the corners than the XF-R, you mean?
No thats not true, the older M5 v10 is a more agile car, no one has said other wise. I think you like many others confuse the idea of handling with that of ring times, in terms of b-road driving this steamroller effect that a monster like the new M5 can deliver can be confusing.
But really lets get back to what Barker wrote if it is true then it certainly means the newer M5 would be worse than the new M5 on those roads and conditions that he and Cross were driving on. The latter Evo test was like that of the Autocar recently where they test cars on wide open a roads, and indeed that IS where cars like the new M5 will shine. Its just that the journalists like to keep these ideas on the down low- so as not to disappoint anyone.
- Again I would go with John Barker's assessment on these cars over most other journalists. Hes the real deal, hes like a mike cross or roger Becker in that he drives real well (not the best but good enough for 2nd tier racing) but can describe handling characteristics and develop chassis dynamics for manufacturers. j
edit:
is this the evo which rated the M5 = 5 stars, XFR = 4.5 stars, E63 AMG = 4.5 stars, Panamera S = 4 stars. The tagline being "The new M5 is an epic experience and a fabulous achievement!""
E38Ross said:
other than the fact you just know 100% BMW wouldn't release an M5 knowing full well it couldn't go round corners as quickly as the previous generation. and the previous generation M5 was still quicker in the corners than the XF-R, you mean?
edit:
is this the evo which rated the M5 = 5 stars, XFR = 4.5 stars, E63 AMG = 4.5 stars, Panamera S = 4 stars. The tagline being "The new M5 is an epic experience and a fabulous achievement!""
E38Ross, it is clear you like/love all things BMW. I, too like, BMW's but know there is good, bad and ugly with all manufacturers.edit:
is this the evo which rated the M5 = 5 stars, XFR = 4.5 stars, E63 AMG = 4.5 stars, Panamera S = 4 stars. The tagline being "The new M5 is an epic experience and a fabulous achievement!""
Mermaid said:
E38Ross, it is clear you like/love all things BMW. I, too like, BMW's but know there is good, bad and ugly with all manufacturers.
as i've said before, the only BMWs i like are the 1M, 335i, M3, 535i, 550i, M5, 740i and 760li; the rest i couldn't give a toss about. any of the "X" cars are hideous, the new 6 series is just bland (interior aside), the Z4 looks nice but supposedly not great to drive and i'd be getting a boxster S over one all day long and the don't even get me started on the new 1 series!!Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff