RE: PH Blog: M5 talks dirty

[ArmaghMan]

SHOCK HORROR.

After only 27 years (E28 M5) Mercedes has finally managed to make an AMG E class that can be compared realistically with a current M5. Its still not clear cut either, some prefer the M others the AMG. The time and money that has been spent just trying to equal the M5 and remember that Audi and Jaguar have to all intents and purposes been left behind.
I seem to recall that the E34 M5 (1988 3.6) was'nt universally loved either so BMW M updated it half way through its cycle to the 3.8 and it was a class leader til it was replaced.
The E39 kicked the ass of all competition from start to finish, ditto E60. Odds on that if the AMG really is as good, there'll be a mid cycle update and it'll be back on top of the pile.

[robsa]

So, from what I can gather he admits he is biased towards Mercedes, says a minus point of the M5 is that they aren't doing a Touring variant and other than that he offers no real explanation as to why he doesn't really like it other than... he doesn't really like it.

I have owned neither, nor am I likely to in the near future, short of a lottery win, but surely the point of a good motoring journalist is that they can express their feelings and sentiments in a way that we can relate to, and back up their opinions with some sort of evidence? Let's face it, everybody else's jobs are tough at the moment - we are asked to do a lot more for considerably less money these days and expectations are far higher. I don't see why journos should get away with articles like this! "I don't like it. Why? Because I don't!" Hardly an enthralling read is it?

[Johnboy Mac]

yellowbentines said:

A bit of support here for our writer Dan.

I've been reading this site for long enough to know that due to the overwhelming number of BMW fanboi members, it doesn't matter what you write about the M5 in that if you don't like it, and dare to suggest an AMG is a better car, the Bimmer massive will be unhappy and vent their fury on you without regard for the fact you are expressing an opinion.

Had you said you preferred the M5, I dare say you couldve just written "M5, ooh, power, ahhh, V8, grrr, AMG driver old, wear flat cap, M5 the daddy" and you wouldve been hailed the best automotive journalist ever to grace PH.

Yes, fair play to Dan for expressing his views and in the process possibly upsetting the odd ott BMW fanboy on here which seems all too esay

[E38Ross]

Chris Harris said:

Hmmmm.

I suspect my presenting this opinion here might upset my new editor, but I'm loving the new M5.

For me an M5 has to be a finely judged balance of the everyday useable and the on-demand nutcase. Version E39 (V8) struck a cleverer balance than version E60 (V10). This car's DNA is more E39 based - good thing.

To me the F10M has those classic M attributes nailed: anonymous to the uneducated or passing glance, suggestive to those who know through stance and camber. The cabin is superb, the gearbox class-leading, the performance so far beyond adequate I find myself laughing out loud at times.

It's too big and it's too heavy, but then it's an M5, so it needs to be spacious and it'll do 400 miles on a tank. That's a revelation after the V10.

I am currently battling an unhealthy AMG obsession: I love the cars, the character, the presentation and the way they drive. But I'd take an M5 over the E63 simply because it somehow feels like a stand-alone model, whereas the E63 - for all its brilliance - still feels like a lunatic E-Class. That said, I prefer these cars as Estates, so the E63 still wins by default.

The F10M's artificial engine noise is bizarre at times, there's too much configuration nonsense that leaves the driver with ever-so-slightly-sub-optimal set up on the road and I'm not sure about the alloy wheels. But I still love it. Those exhaust parps on flat-shifts are genius.

The car I'd most like to live with in 2012.

interesting read chris, better than the article itself, it at least offers a reason as to why you like/dislike it.

i for one love it, my father is test driving one in a couple of weeks as he's looking to purchase....will be interesting to see what he thinks of it compared to the M3.

i wonder if he'll notice the noise through the stereo, or whether it's just a thing where you "notice" only if you're told about it. if the latter, then i couldn't give a toss.

[Johnboy Mac]

robsa said:

I don't see why journos should get away with articles like this! "I don't like it. Why? Because I don't!" Hardly an enthralling read is it?

You got to admit it makes good bait - five pages already!

[urquattro]

Mermaid said:

tonym911 said:

The last M5 Touring was a commercial disaster, nobody bought it. It's one of those cars that those of us who can't afford it think should be bought in bulk by those who can.

The fuel issue & the mediocre gear box did not help. Now they have sorted those two issues out...

An M3 Touring is what I would really, really like. At least a couple thousand RS4's Avants sold in the UK, and 220 RS2's

I own a good RS2, it is like fine wine and cheese, once matured and understood, it is one of the best mid size performance cars ever, as an estate/avant version it just fades into the mass of other vehicles, I have never had it flat out (need licence) but is very very rapid for a 2.5/5 cylinder lump. Also have the 540 touring as I like V8 and they are so cheap now its painful.

[EDLT]

Johnboy Mac said:

robsa said:

I don't see why journos should get away with articles like this! "I don't like it. Why? Because I don't!" Hardly an enthralling read is it?

You got to admit it makes good bait - five pages already!

The only way he could have got a bigger reaction is by saying VWs aren't the greatest cars in the world.

[Dan Trent]

Great to hear the debate - keep it coming! And as I've already said this is simply a quick blog digesting my thoughts upon handing over the keys. Both Chris and I will be talking more about this car in due course.

And like the Impreza/Evo and 458/MP4-12C rivalries I mentioned in the original post whichever side you pledge allegiance to we're all winners when two model cycles coincide with the respective manufacturers both at the top of their games. Two closely matched and awesome cars are the result and the reasons one or the other appeals are subtle and fascinating. Well, to folk like us at least.

So yes, keep it coming!

[Johnboy Mac]

EDLT said:

The only way he could have got a bigger reaction is by saying VWs aren't the greatest cars in the world.

[Gorbyrev]

Mr Whippy said:

Being technically impressive doesn't mean it's actually awe inspiring and something to get under your skin.


Why BMW can't just buck the trend. Make a 5.0 turbo with 500bhp as a rapid express by all means, but why not make one with an NA 6 pot and about 350bhp, and then spend the £25,000 left on carbon everywhere, and make it super light/agile and a driving tool beyond autobahn express?!


Dave

Mr Whippy prophesies the future I sense!

[E38Ross]

Gorbyrev said:

Mr Whippy said:

Being technically impressive doesn't mean it's actually awe inspiring and something to get under your skin.


Why BMW can't just buck the trend. Make a 5.0 turbo with 500bhp as a rapid express by all means, but why not make one with an NA 6 pot and about 350bhp, and then spend the £25,000 left on carbon everywhere, and make it super light/agile and a driving tool beyond autobahn express?!


Dave

Mr Whippy prophesies the future I sense!

because it will only be wanted by those such as mr whippy.... i.e. those who cannot afford to buy it. those who want an M5, want so because it's laden with tech as well as good to drive; it's always been what the M5 is about.

and before people start saying how good the old ones are like an E28 M5.....yes, they're great cars but i'm sorry, the whole point is for something which you can live with day to day, and the new one is more refined, will be more comfortable, safer in an accident, has more creature comforts etc....that's probably quite a large part of what M5 drivers want.

as i said earlier, i know someone looking to buy an F10 M5, they don't want a lightweight saloon with less sound deadening, less safety features, less technology etc; they want a very fast, comfortable, liveable 4 door saloon car which is like a perfectly ordinary, quiet, comfortable saloon car for the week and a car with a very quick turn of pace wrapped up in one package; which can also take the mrs and their 2 year old away for the weekend with luggage. they don't want to have 1 car which is a not brilliant during the week and a 2 seater for the weekend....the whole point of an M5 is that it does it all very well.

i bet if they made a 350bhp "M5" which was 300-400kgs lighter with less tech, more lightweight materials, less sound deadening etc for the same price bracket it wouldn't sell as many

Edited by E38Ross on Saturday 21st January 16:59

[robsa]

Johnboy Mac said:

You got to admit it makes good bait - five pages already!

Well, yes, but so does saying "I don't think we have landed on the moon...."

But my comment still stands - give us something with a little more justification and reasoning, eeh?!

[Dan Trent]

thelondoncarguy said:

I purchased a new M5 from North Oxford BMW at the beginning of January and have covered just under 1,000 miles

Thanks for this too, really interesting post and much appreciated. You've got mail!

[Dan Trent]

robsa said:

But my comment still stands - give us something with a little more justification and reasoning, eeh?!

The blogs are just that - a quick thought or bit of chin scratching posted up to share and hopefully inspire a bit of debate. Job done on that score I feel! There's a lot to consider with the M5 and it all merits discussion and I've got plenty of thoughts - and notes - to collate, consider and ruminate on. Consider this an opening shot, one that I'm pleased to see has inspired plenty of chat.

[Mermaid]

urquattro said:

I own a good RS2, it is like fine wine and cheese, once matured and understood, it is one of the best mid size performance cars ever, as an estate/avant version it just fades into the mass of other vehicles, I have never had it flat out (need licence) but is very very rapid for a 2.5/5 cylinder lump.

+ 1, but I suspect the engine is more 2.2, rather than 2.5.

[Gorbyrev]

E38Ross said:

Gorbyrev said:

Mr Whippy said:

Being technically impressive doesn't mean it's actually awe inspiring and something to get under your skin.


Why BMW can't just buck the trend. Make a 5.0 turbo with 500bhp as a rapid express by all means, but why not make one with an NA 6 pot and about 350bhp, and then spend the £25,000 left on carbon everywhere, and make it super light/agile and a driving tool beyond autobahn express?!


Dave

Mr Whippy prophesies the future I sense!

because it will only be wanted by those such as mr whippy.... i.e. those who cannot afford to buy it. those who want an M5, want so because it's laden with tech as well as good to drive; it's always been what the M5 is about.

and before people start saying how good the old ones are like an E28 M5.....yes, they're great cars but i'm sorry, the whole point is for something which you can live with day to day, and the new one is more refined, will be more comfortable, safer in an accident, has more creature comforts etc....that's probably quite a large part of what M5 drivers want.

as i said earlier, i know someone looking to buy an F10 M5, they don't want a lightweight saloon with less sound deadening, less safety features, less technology etc; they want a very fast, comfortable, liveable 4 door saloon car which is like a perfectly ordinary, quiet, comfortable saloon car for the week and a car with a very quick turn of pace wrapped up in one package; which can also take the mrs and their 2 year old away for the weekend with luggage. they don't want to have 1 car which is a not brilliant during the week and a 2 seater for the weekend....the whole point of an M5 is that it does it all very well.

i bet if they made a 350bhp "M5" which was 300-400kgs lighter with less tech, more lightweight materials, less sound deadening etc for the same price bracket it wouldn't sell as many

Edited by E38Ross on Saturday 21st January 16:59

Fair point well made. But my suspicion is that decrease of weight will affect the whole 5 series range and its competitors. In that environment the marketing departments will start to switch to power to weight ratios. It is already happening with aluminium with Audi and in the Jag range where an XJ is lightweight in a way that the XF isn't. That is reflected in the performance figures. A heavier XJ would, of course, use more fuel for less performance. Maybe not the successor to the F10 but perhaps the one after will be built around a carbon tub. Might be wrong but just my tuppence worth. But, point taken, this will not be at the expense of luxury motoring toys.

[Stuart]

robsa said:

jobs are tough at the moment - we are asked to do a lot more for considerably less money these days and expectationI don't see why journos should get away with articles like this! "I don't like it. Why? Because I don't!" Hardly an enthralling read is it?

To be fair to Dan, this is just a blog on his initial thoughts. There'll be more to come I'm sure, and he and Chris were shooting video in it this week as well. There's been no shortage of hard work in it this week, the lucky sod...

For my part, having threatened Dan with a move to Practical Caravan unless he let me drive to and from a meeting in it yesterday, I couldn't disagree more with his assessment. I'm a E60 5 series driver, so the cabin was familiar, but I thought it was a fabulous drive. I've driven the E63 and, engine note aside, didn't enjoy it as much. Only niggle for me with the F10M is the throttle response. Even at the sharpest setting it seems to be too unresponsive for the first 30-40% of travel, which leaves you with precious little travel for precise throttle input before you reach kick down. It made the throttle a little too switch like for my tastes.

That aside, I'll have one.

[Derestrictor]

Let's not kid ourselves over the enthusiast (i.e. CSL type) comments versus those making commercial sense.

Even so, a pig headed aversion to such things (i.e. reality) is not, nor should it be that which informs the said enthusiast, in all his wondrous variety.

There's no doubt in my mind that the V10 was the last iteration of truly heroic ///Mness (of the sort where the guy who signed off the 'M diff' really wanted to be Herman Rarebell, drummer supreme of Germanic heavy rock) and not just because it avoided slushed changes.

It was a rare screamer and it knocked/knocks the alternatives into a cocked hat for sheer lunacy. It just did/does...

Although irretrievably biased, I'll never begin to understand the media's default ignorance of the B5 in the automatic, uber contemplations; perhaps it's mere homage to the standard mode of the supplier's triumvirate of unthinking, perennial AMG v RS v XF-R supply?

I think we have to draw certain lines in the sand across which transgression must surely be acknowledged; a place where progress is defined by technology but from what I can see, latterly amounts to a (dilutive) virtualisation of what we've already had.

Yes, this is luddism; yes, this is unrealistic but it is what the enthusiast should stick to, as a creed.

I can just about go with SMG but even then, must submit to the insistence of even that to the call of "impurity!" as it were, from the sidelines and those stick shifters of yore.

Besides, if we're less worried about the finesse of a flicked wrist or some variably effected, foot initiated clutch action, then at the day's end, Merc had the game sewn up anyway with its '65 AMG ware...

When me old mate and PH denizen, Dazren of Bristol & The West, has sporadically bemoaned the creeping abandonment of the 'old way' (manual) by Porsche, I've sometimes given his mourn minimal gravity by way of response - citing the Nissan GT-R -for example, in our joint analysis of the historically (road) indomitable (since 1995) Porsche Turbo. Yet today, in the cold light of i-Everything... his thoughts have assumed a vast weight and ominous providence.

And yes, this is after a small pootle in the Funf of Funfs.

Hail & Schnell.

[urquattro]

Mermaid said:

urquattro said:

I own a good RS2, it is like fine wine and cheese, once matured and understood, it is one of the best mid size performance cars ever, as an estate/avant version it just fades into the mass of other vehicles, I have never had it flat out (need licence) but is very very rapid for a 2.5/5 cylinder lump.

+ 1, but I suspect the engine is more 2.2, rather than 2.5.

I stand corrected, ok when you cannot remember the exact cubic capacity of your own car, flat torque from 2400rpm and 315bhp from something now nearly 18 years old.
Still did get the five cylinders right and I understand the car well enough to dispel undue turbo lag often quoted,

[Mermaid]

urquattro said:

I stand corrected, ok when you cannot remember the exact cubic capacity of your own car, flat torque from 2400rpm and 315bhp from something now nearly 18 years old.
Still did get the five cylinders right and I understand the car well enough to dispel undue turbo lag often quoted,

Less turbo lag with the smaller Hohnester turbo


But apologies, this thread is about the M5.