Dear Chris Harris - Does it need to drift?
Discussion
Still only in my thirtys though,oh,and M3 tyres cost a bit more than cozzy ones!Kevin
I need to draw some distinctions from the points raised.
I think you are slightly unfairly connecting the roles of oversteer as a dynamic merit in a road test or group test, and as a means of making a car magazine article or video look more exciting. Personally I have never awarded a comparison test victory to a car solely on the basis that it will oversteer – I agree it’s way too simplistic a view of everyday motoring. However, I would happily use the fact that a car is rear driven, and therefore will drift, to contribute to a case for it beating another car. That’s an important difference.
As for full third-gear slides with smoke billowing of the rear tyres – yep, that’s pure, undiluted showboating. And it is proven to sell magazines and make people watch videos. That is my job. When I read a car mag, I want to see excitement. Just like I grin when I see a knee scraping along the ground in a bike mag or some lunatic leaping a mountain bike in a fashion I could never, ever imagine doing myself. I suppose the difference is I like seeing stuff that I cannot or would not do.
I also urge you to make the connection between that kind of abject yobbery and the smaller, subtler forms of car-movement that anyone can enjoy, and given our conversations clearly you do, because the former really is just the ultimate extrapolation of the latter. And for me enjoyment of any kind of slip angle, whether it’s slow, fast, fwd, rwd or 4wd is one of the key tenets of being a car enthusiast. You don’t have to be all-ends-up in an E92 M3 to enjoy the feeling. It happens in a go-kart at 15mph, in a Ford Anglia on a wet road at 25mph; that sensation of spinal cord registering some slip and then needing to steer into a slide is something I love.
Part of the everyday ownership experience? Nope, but that doesn’t make it any less valid as a promotional tool. If motoring media only reflected what people actually did with their cars on a daily basis my good friend Colin Goodwin would never have driven a Ferrari F512 M to the Sahara desert. And that would be a shame. I agree that any piece of objective journalism which declared a car brilliant solely on the grounds of it being a drift-tool would look ridiculous – but I’ve never read such an article. This business is about information but also entertainment.
Motoring journalists are the only people who indulge in a little oversteer? Not sure I agree there. Historic racing, rallying, pretty much every form of club motorsport, not to mention track days - where people do allow their cars to move about underneath them, but don’t lay-down massive black lines because, you’re right, they will get thrown off. All of them involve sliding of some sort. For me, all of them are improved through sliding.
It’s not impossible for PHers to replicate this stuff either. I did some drift schools years ago at Autocar, and hundreds of people enjoyed learning how to make a car slide. There are several other courses like that one still around today, but I suspect that most people just indulge their curiosities in a sensible, safe manner however they see fit.
Wouldn’t car media be a rather stale, inert environment if people didn’t wage war on tyres? I agree it doesn’t mean anything in the context of the real-world (except, as I’ve already said, being an extreme representation of the handling traits that cause many people to chose a car like an E92 M3) but then if a car mag is already giving you the story of living with the car nine-to-five, isn’t there space for some fun?
I see it as just that – great fun. I love sliding cars, but in the context of my everyday driving life it means nothing. Why stick a C63 on space-savers? To investigate the concept of reduced grip because it will become a theme with the GT 86/BRZ in 2012, but mainly to see what it would be like and get some great sideways shots for a camera which can shoot at 200 fps.
In answer to the question in the title of your post: No, it doesn’t have to drift. But if it does, I think the chances are it will make a more appealing driving machine.
In answer to your last question: No.
Apols for any typos etc, in a rush.
Best
Chris
I need to draw some distinctions from the points raised.
I think you are slightly unfairly connecting the roles of oversteer as a dynamic merit in a road test or group test, and as a means of making a car magazine article or video look more exciting. Personally I have never awarded a comparison test victory to a car solely on the basis that it will oversteer – I agree it’s way too simplistic a view of everyday motoring. However, I would happily use the fact that a car is rear driven, and therefore will drift, to contribute to a case for it beating another car. That’s an important difference.
As for full third-gear slides with smoke billowing of the rear tyres – yep, that’s pure, undiluted showboating. And it is proven to sell magazines and make people watch videos. That is my job. When I read a car mag, I want to see excitement. Just like I grin when I see a knee scraping along the ground in a bike mag or some lunatic leaping a mountain bike in a fashion I could never, ever imagine doing myself. I suppose the difference is I like seeing stuff that I cannot or would not do.
I also urge you to make the connection between that kind of abject yobbery and the smaller, subtler forms of car-movement that anyone can enjoy, and given our conversations clearly you do, because the former really is just the ultimate extrapolation of the latter. And for me enjoyment of any kind of slip angle, whether it’s slow, fast, fwd, rwd or 4wd is one of the key tenets of being a car enthusiast. You don’t have to be all-ends-up in an E92 M3 to enjoy the feeling. It happens in a go-kart at 15mph, in a Ford Anglia on a wet road at 25mph; that sensation of spinal cord registering some slip and then needing to steer into a slide is something I love.
Part of the everyday ownership experience? Nope, but that doesn’t make it any less valid as a promotional tool. If motoring media only reflected what people actually did with their cars on a daily basis my good friend Colin Goodwin would never have driven a Ferrari F512 M to the Sahara desert. And that would be a shame. I agree that any piece of objective journalism which declared a car brilliant solely on the grounds of it being a drift-tool would look ridiculous – but I’ve never read such an article. This business is about information but also entertainment.
Motoring journalists are the only people who indulge in a little oversteer? Not sure I agree there. Historic racing, rallying, pretty much every form of club motorsport, not to mention track days - where people do allow their cars to move about underneath them, but don’t lay-down massive black lines because, you’re right, they will get thrown off. All of them involve sliding of some sort. For me, all of them are improved through sliding.
It’s not impossible for PHers to replicate this stuff either. I did some drift schools years ago at Autocar, and hundreds of people enjoyed learning how to make a car slide. There are several other courses like that one still around today, but I suspect that most people just indulge their curiosities in a sensible, safe manner however they see fit.
Wouldn’t car media be a rather stale, inert environment if people didn’t wage war on tyres? I agree it doesn’t mean anything in the context of the real-world (except, as I’ve already said, being an extreme representation of the handling traits that cause many people to chose a car like an E92 M3) but then if a car mag is already giving you the story of living with the car nine-to-five, isn’t there space for some fun?
I see it as just that – great fun. I love sliding cars, but in the context of my everyday driving life it means nothing. Why stick a C63 on space-savers? To investigate the concept of reduced grip because it will become a theme with the GT 86/BRZ in 2012, but mainly to see what it would be like and get some great sideways shots for a camera which can shoot at 200 fps.
In answer to the question in the title of your post: No, it doesn’t have to drift. But if it does, I think the chances are it will make a more appealing driving machine.
In answer to your last question: No.
Apols for any typos etc, in a rush.
Best
Chris
Edited by Chris Harris on Sunday 22 January 21:09
dvs_dave said:
Drifting is fun but does anyone here actually ever intentionally drift their car on a public road?
Surely it's worse if it's unintentional as you are loosing control?And I have been stopped by plod no fewer than three times for doing this, twice in FWD cars (Lift off oversteer is the best your going to get from that layout though!
I don't do it on the road—well, maybe the odd tail out action at the odd deserted hairpin with plenty of visibility—but really liked getting the e34 M5's tail out on track—especially on winter airfield days where the Caterwestical brigade have cried off due to it being wet/cold/icy.
Most of the track days I've been on (i.e. in excess of 100) have been fine with drifting around corners, as long as you keep it under control. Spin out too often and you'll get a warning, continue spinning out and you'll be sent home.
Most of the track days I've been on (i.e. in excess of 100) have been fine with drifting around corners, as long as you keep it under control. Spin out too often and you'll get a warning, continue spinning out and you'll be sent home.
interesting response chris
in my mind there is a difference to controlling a car on the limit and mindlessly sliding it about (great fun on an air field if someone else is paying for the tyres but pointless in every other senario)
some of the greatest racing i have witnessed was the RS500 touring cars going head 2 head, tonnes of power and not much grip, some amazing car control that seams missing in modern motor sport.
i enjoy greatly watching a skilled driver tame a car on the limit whilst pursing that last 10th of a second
power sliding on the other hand was best left in max power and essex car parks imo
in my mind there is a difference to controlling a car on the limit and mindlessly sliding it about (great fun on an air field if someone else is paying for the tyres but pointless in every other senario)
some of the greatest racing i have witnessed was the RS500 touring cars going head 2 head, tonnes of power and not much grip, some amazing car control that seams missing in modern motor sport.
i enjoy greatly watching a skilled driver tame a car on the limit whilst pursing that last 10th of a second
power sliding on the other hand was best left in max power and essex car parks imo
Dave Hedgehog said:
some of the greatest racing i have witnessed was the RS500 touring cars going head 2 head, tonnes of power and not much grip, some amazing car control that seams missing in modern motor sport.
Check out Aussie V8s 
Preferably on a wet street circuit on slicks (happens at least once a season it seems).
John D. said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
some of the greatest racing i have witnessed was the RS500 touring cars going head 2 head, tonnes of power and not much grip, some amazing car control that seams missing in modern motor sport.
Check out Aussie V8s Preferably on a wet street circuit on slicks (happens at least once a season it seems).
Picked my 944 S2 up yesterday and currently am having fun inthe wet not drifting as I havent driven a RWD car (other than out Fiat 500) for years and am used to FWD turbo's esp and all that stuff, the 944 is remindign me what I have been missing, it isnt the newests, fasted or best handling car ever but its been a revaltion but I know if I try to emulate hooligan antics it will go wrong for me and I will crash, I dont want to bend the car, hurt anyone or myself for the sake of having a good tale to tell on here, like bikers with their knee down antics it does make me wonder how many crashes are down to petrolheads feeling the need to feel like they are joining in and that all RWD owners go everywhere at 90 degress, it isnt actually the fastest way round a corner !
Not ruling it out but it will be on a wide, empty car park initially to get he feel for it as really Forza 4 doesnt count, as far as I can tell there is no rewind or reset button on the 91 944 S2 for when I get it wrong.
I cope better with being called a fanny than crashing !
Not ruling it out but it will be on a wide, empty car park initially to get he feel for it as really Forza 4 doesnt count, as far as I can tell there is no rewind or reset button on the 91 944 S2 for when I get it wrong.
I cope better with being called a fanny than crashing !
Chris Harris said:
Kevin
I need to draw some distinctions from the points raised.
I think you are slightly unfairly connecting the roles of oversteer as a dynamic merit in a road test or group test, and as a means of making a car magazine article or video look more exciting. Personally I have never awarded a comparison test victory to a car solely on the basis that it will oversteer – I agree it’s way too simplistic a view of everyday motoring. However, I would happily use the fact that a car is rear driven, and therefore will drift, to contribute to a case for it beating another car. That’s an important difference.
As for full third-gear slides with smoke billowing of the rear tyres – yep, that’s pure, undiluted showboating. And it is proven to sell magazines and make people watch videos. That is my job. When I read a car mag, I want to see excitement. Just like I grin when I see a knee scraping along the ground in a bike mag or some lunatic leaping a mountain bike in a fashion I could never, ever imagine doing myself. I suppose the difference is I like seeing stuff that I cannot or would not do.
I also urge you to make the connection between that kind of abject yobbery and the smaller, subtler forms of car-movement that anyone can enjoy, and given our conversations clearly you do, because the former really is just the ultimate extrapolation of the latter. And for me enjoyment of any kind of slip angle, whether it’s slow, fast, fwd, rwd or 4wd is one of the key tenets of being a car enthusiast. You don’t have to be all-ends-up in an E92 M3 to enjoy the feeling. It happens in a go-kart at 15mph, in a Ford Anglia on a wet road at 25mph; that sensation of spinal cord registering some slip and then needing to steer into a slide is something I love.
Part of the everyday ownership experience? Nope, but that doesn’t make it any less valid as a promotional tool. If motoring media only reflected what people actually did with their cars on a daily basis my good friend Colin Goodwin would never have driven a Ferrari F512 M to the Sahara desert. And that would be a shame. I agree that any piece of objective journalism which declared a car brilliant solely on the grounds of it being a drift-tool would look ridiculous – but I’ve never read such an article. This business is about information but also entertainment.
Motoring journalists are the only people who indulge in a little oversteer? Not sure I agree there. Historic racing, rallying, pretty much every form of club motorsport, not to mention track days - where people do allow their cars to move about underneath them, but don’t lay-down massive black lines because, you’re right, they will get thrown off. All of them involve sliding of some sort. For me, all of them are improved through sliding.
It’s not impossible for PHers to replicate this stuff either. I did some drift schools years ago at Autocar, and hundreds of people enjoyed learning how to make a car slide. There are several other courses like that one still around today, but I suspect that most people just indulge their curiosities in a sensible, safe manner however they see fit.
Wouldn’t car media be a rather stale, inert environment if people didn’t wage war on tyres? I agree it doesn’t mean anything in the context of the real-world (except, as I’ve already said, being an extreme representation of the handling traits that cause many people to chose a car like an E92 M3) but then if a car mag is already giving you the story of living with the car nine-to-five, isn’t there space for some fun?
I see it as just that – great fun. I love sliding cars, but in the context of my everyday driving life it means nothing. Why stick a C63 on space-savers? To investigate the concept of reduced grip because it will become a theme with the GT 86/BRZ in 2012, but mainly to see what it would be like and get some great sideways shots for a camera which can shoot at 200 fps.
In answer to the question in the title of your post: No, it doesn’t have to drift. But if it does, I think the chances are it will make a more appealing driving machine.
In answer to your last question: No.
Apols for any typos etc, in a rush.
Best
Chris
Hi ChrisI need to draw some distinctions from the points raised.
I think you are slightly unfairly connecting the roles of oversteer as a dynamic merit in a road test or group test, and as a means of making a car magazine article or video look more exciting. Personally I have never awarded a comparison test victory to a car solely on the basis that it will oversteer – I agree it’s way too simplistic a view of everyday motoring. However, I would happily use the fact that a car is rear driven, and therefore will drift, to contribute to a case for it beating another car. That’s an important difference.
As for full third-gear slides with smoke billowing of the rear tyres – yep, that’s pure, undiluted showboating. And it is proven to sell magazines and make people watch videos. That is my job. When I read a car mag, I want to see excitement. Just like I grin when I see a knee scraping along the ground in a bike mag or some lunatic leaping a mountain bike in a fashion I could never, ever imagine doing myself. I suppose the difference is I like seeing stuff that I cannot or would not do.
I also urge you to make the connection between that kind of abject yobbery and the smaller, subtler forms of car-movement that anyone can enjoy, and given our conversations clearly you do, because the former really is just the ultimate extrapolation of the latter. And for me enjoyment of any kind of slip angle, whether it’s slow, fast, fwd, rwd or 4wd is one of the key tenets of being a car enthusiast. You don’t have to be all-ends-up in an E92 M3 to enjoy the feeling. It happens in a go-kart at 15mph, in a Ford Anglia on a wet road at 25mph; that sensation of spinal cord registering some slip and then needing to steer into a slide is something I love.
Part of the everyday ownership experience? Nope, but that doesn’t make it any less valid as a promotional tool. If motoring media only reflected what people actually did with their cars on a daily basis my good friend Colin Goodwin would never have driven a Ferrari F512 M to the Sahara desert. And that would be a shame. I agree that any piece of objective journalism which declared a car brilliant solely on the grounds of it being a drift-tool would look ridiculous – but I’ve never read such an article. This business is about information but also entertainment.
Motoring journalists are the only people who indulge in a little oversteer? Not sure I agree there. Historic racing, rallying, pretty much every form of club motorsport, not to mention track days - where people do allow their cars to move about underneath them, but don’t lay-down massive black lines because, you’re right, they will get thrown off. All of them involve sliding of some sort. For me, all of them are improved through sliding.
It’s not impossible for PHers to replicate this stuff either. I did some drift schools years ago at Autocar, and hundreds of people enjoyed learning how to make a car slide. There are several other courses like that one still around today, but I suspect that most people just indulge their curiosities in a sensible, safe manner however they see fit.
Wouldn’t car media be a rather stale, inert environment if people didn’t wage war on tyres? I agree it doesn’t mean anything in the context of the real-world (except, as I’ve already said, being an extreme representation of the handling traits that cause many people to chose a car like an E92 M3) but then if a car mag is already giving you the story of living with the car nine-to-five, isn’t there space for some fun?
I see it as just that – great fun. I love sliding cars, but in the context of my everyday driving life it means nothing. Why stick a C63 on space-savers? To investigate the concept of reduced grip because it will become a theme with the GT 86/BRZ in 2012, but mainly to see what it would be like and get some great sideways shots for a camera which can shoot at 200 fps.
In answer to the question in the title of your post: No, it doesn’t have to drift. But if it does, I think the chances are it will make a more appealing driving machine.
In answer to your last question: No.
Apols for any typos etc, in a rush.
Best
Chris
Edited by Chris Harris on Sunday 22 January 21:09
Thanks for your reply, frankly I think we are in agreement drifting is a visual entertainment that we all enjoy viewing but mostly irrelevant to the ownership experience
Goodwin to the Sarah, Llewelyn to the Somme, classic stories both but not a drift in sight
Keep it on the island!
Kevin
RWD cossie wil said:
You might as well sell the M3 & buy a people carrier! Hand in your PH membership on the way out..
Totally agree with this, its such a shame that an m3 cant be enjoyed to the full,i know its childish but its great to feel the rear end sliding imo.Fwd seems to be the way to go in this case then, what a waste.
I grew up with front wheel drive cars. Both my parents cars and my first own cars were front wheel drive.
It's only been in the last few years that I've actually got to own and drive rear wheel drive cars and it's actually been since then that I have actually become interested in learning about car control.
More recently that interest has expanded into oversteer and exploring what it is possible to do with a rear wheel drive chassis and a bit of power.
Do I enjoy exploring those limits? Hell yes!
Has a cars ability to do skids become a prerequisite for for the cars I buy? No.
Would I be happy having a garage that didn't have a driftable car in it? Definitely not!
Just like rabidly accelerative cars have their place in everymans world of motoring desires, so should cars that like to go sideways on a stab of the throttle.
By the way, what is the legal position on oversteer on the public highway?
It's only been in the last few years that I've actually got to own and drive rear wheel drive cars and it's actually been since then that I have actually become interested in learning about car control.
More recently that interest has expanded into oversteer and exploring what it is possible to do with a rear wheel drive chassis and a bit of power.
Do I enjoy exploring those limits? Hell yes!
Has a cars ability to do skids become a prerequisite for for the cars I buy? No.
Would I be happy having a garage that didn't have a driftable car in it? Definitely not!
Just like rabidly accelerative cars have their place in everymans world of motoring desires, so should cars that like to go sideways on a stab of the throttle.
By the way, what is the legal position on oversteer on the public highway?
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