RE: BMW's M diesels: the official details
Discussion
BeirutTaxi said:
I'll be honest Fishman, you strike me as a BMW diesel fanboy to the point where even if you knew a model of some sort of diesel BMW wasn't a good car you would deny it.
What do you see the disadvantages of the latest line of these new BMW M diesels?
I think (I have a 335d) they make very good six pot soot checkers - still class leading, revvy, sound okay. However while their 4 pot diesels do impressive figures, I can never ever bring myself to really like a 4 cylinder diesel. And we have one (albeit with two turbos) on the driveway too.What do you see the disadvantages of the latest line of these new BMW M diesels?
Too rattly, too dieselly, too lame before the turbo (less so with two) kicks in. Even the very impressive 123d engines leave me a bit cold.
dvs_dave said:
I think the reason bmw aren't doing RHD versions of their x-drive saloons is that it would involve completely re-engineering the drivetrain for RHD.
This is because the propshaft from the transfer case to the front axle runs down the RH side of the gearbox. Further to this, the front diff is offset and sits on the right hand side of the engine. The LH drive shaft does through a cut-out in the sump.
On a RHD car, all the steering column, pedals and steering box are all right where all this gubbins sits so to make it work, all the front drive kit would have to be moved over to the other side. This is a major change so for the volumes likely to be sold in RHD markets (none of which have significant cold/snowy winters) it's just not worth the return on investment.
Nice idea, but it doesn't run down the right, its down the left on all xdrives! Check out the video, but do know this as been under a few. The X1 uses basically the same system and is rhd too, so that means its possible, just not worth the money to do the work for a low volume model. This is because the propshaft from the transfer case to the front axle runs down the RH side of the gearbox. Further to this, the front diff is offset and sits on the right hand side of the engine. The LH drive shaft does through a cut-out in the sump.
On a RHD car, all the steering column, pedals and steering box are all right where all this gubbins sits so to make it work, all the front drive kit would have to be moved over to the other side. This is a major change so for the volumes likely to be sold in RHD markets (none of which have significant cold/snowy winters) it's just not worth the return on investment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEvLGIg2rCs&fea...
http://www.awdwiki.com/images/bmw-5-series-xdrive....
Edited by jagfan2 on Thursday 26th January 20:45
Cheib said:
^^^^^^ Very good post Dennis
Having said that it's a shame when the cars are originally engineered they can't think about things like this...
When do you think product planning and market demand assessments and feasibility studies happen - before anything is committed to manufacture or part way through/afterwards?Having said that it's a shame when the cars are originally engineered they can't think about things like this...
Agreed, excellent post Dennis, some very salient points, well made.
ADM06 said:
I still fail to understand why someone with £60000+ to burn on a brand new car would need a diesel. Diesels are for poor bastids like me, and belong in cars that are cheap in the first place.
Tell the owner of this he should man up and go for a pair of petrol engines...
Then tell this car owner he really should work a little harder so he can afford a petrol car...
And finally finish by racing this peasant off the lights:
Vladimir said:
Tell the owner of this he should man up and go for a pair of petrol engines...
Then tell this car owner he really should work a little harder so he can afford a petrol car...
And finally finish by racing this peasant off the lights:
i think his point is being that for the a cheaper price you could buy a decent petrol to fund some of the extra fuel bills (e.g. a 550i is cheaper than the 550d and has more power). i really wish they'd do a petrol version of this. petrol typically a few grand cheaper so 57-58k for a 550i with the M additions would be rather nice, but then i guess the point of this is the running costs are more bearable...Then tell this car owner he really should work a little harder so he can afford a petrol car...
And finally finish by racing this peasant off the lights:
i think he's missing the point somewhat though. i'm not a huge fan of the diesels but understand they have a clear purpose and will not dispute that.
Those banging on about how Quattro does ok are missing a few key points about Quattro
a) Generally the reason behind the number of Quattro Audis are that with many models you have no choice. Want a 3.0 TDI A6? It's Quattro whether you want it or not
b) On the models where Quattro is optional, it's rarely chosen and when it is dont forget that the altnative is FWD...
Not very many 2.0 TDI Quattros out there, for example.
a) Generally the reason behind the number of Quattro Audis are that with many models you have no choice. Want a 3.0 TDI A6? It's Quattro whether you want it or not
b) On the models where Quattro is optional, it's rarely chosen and when it is dont forget that the altnative is FWD...
Not very many 2.0 TDI Quattros out there, for example.
Fox- said:
Those banging on about how Quattro does ok are missing a few key points about Quattro
a) Generally the reason behind the number of Quattro Audis are that with many models you have no choice. Want a 3.0 TDI A6? It's Quattro whether you want it or not
b) On the models where Quattro is optional, it's rarely chosen and when it is dont forget that the altnative is FWD...
Not very many 2.0 TDI Quattros out there, for example.
Indeed and what sort of drivers car is FWD apart from weeny hatchbacks? This is what makes me laugh about Audis. Bold claims of being great driving machines but most of the models sold are FWD...a) Generally the reason behind the number of Quattro Audis are that with many models you have no choice. Want a 3.0 TDI A6? It's Quattro whether you want it or not
b) On the models where Quattro is optional, it's rarely chosen and when it is dont forget that the altnative is FWD...
Not very many 2.0 TDI Quattros out there, for example.
If anyone has seen an AWD BMW 3 series, they look like they are on stilts. A small family can live comfortably in each wheelarch. Not very "in" with the UK trend of having 30 inch alloys on 10 profile tyres that are 300++ wide despite usually having less than 150bhp....
Zwolf said:
Often because there's only so much torque you can put through the end that also does the steering and the lion's share of the stopping.
Quite, I totally agree, but it's this which makes the 'But Audi manage to sell Quattros!' argument a bit invalid when used as a reason why BMW should import a shedload of 4wd 3 Series.There is nothing wrong with a 300bhp RWD 3 Series but I'd imagine a 300bhp FWD A4 would be dreadful. You pretty much *have* to go Quattro if youve got any sort of power. The same isnt true of BMW.
Fox- said:
Those banging on about how Quattro does ok are missing a few key points about Quattro
a) Generally the reason behind the number of Quattro Audis are that with many models you have no choice. Want a 3.0 TDI A6? It's Quattro whether you want it or not
b) On the models where Quattro is optional, it's rarely chosen and when it is dont forget that the altnative is FWD...
Not very many 2.0 TDI Quattros out there, for example.
a very, very valid point.a) Generally the reason behind the number of Quattro Audis are that with many models you have no choice. Want a 3.0 TDI A6? It's Quattro whether you want it or not
b) On the models where Quattro is optional, it's rarely chosen and when it is dont forget that the altnative is FWD...
Not very many 2.0 TDI Quattros out there, for example.
Fox- said:
Not very many 2.0 TDI Quattros out there, for example.
But, the few people who have A3 or A4 TDI Quattros tell you they own an Audi Quattro. For most of us that still conjures up images of something with lots of power drifting from gravel covered corner to gravel covered corner with the Finesse of Torvill and Dean in their pomp.
What they really mean is I bought a TDI for economy and bought into the image.
If BMW had a more well known rally heritage they would market 4x4 here as much as they do RWD.
Don't really understand these. What's to get so excited about? Have BMW not been doing exactly this for years with the M Sport kit and twin turbo 535d? It's clearly got about as much in common with an M5 as a 318d has with an M3. To me, this just seems like a massive marketing push to make people remember that you can order cars with an M-Sport kit! I can't really say it's that big a loss that they're not coming to the UK. Yes, it'll pull like a train, but I highly doubt it's going to be a drivers car, and it certainly won't hold a candle to a 'proper' M car.
If it had genuinely been an M5 with an oil burner, then yes, it would have been worth a look, but it's clearly not! It's BMW's new tri turbo diesel 6 in a body kitted 5 series most likely riding on rock solid suspension to give the impression of sportyness! I'd rather wait 6 months or so until the engine can be ordered in an SE on the correct suspension (that doesn't rearange your internal organs), have it chipped to the same power and then anjoy the versatility of a decent, powerful oil burning workhorse! An incredibly cynical marketing whilwind from BMW IMHO.
If it had genuinely been an M5 with an oil burner, then yes, it would have been worth a look, but it's clearly not! It's BMW's new tri turbo diesel 6 in a body kitted 5 series most likely riding on rock solid suspension to give the impression of sportyness! I'd rather wait 6 months or so until the engine can be ordered in an SE on the correct suspension (that doesn't rearange your internal organs), have it chipped to the same power and then anjoy the versatility of a decent, powerful oil burning workhorse! An incredibly cynical marketing whilwind from BMW IMHO.
Vladimir said:
Tell the owner of this he should man up and go for a pair of petrol engines...
Then tell this car owner he really should work a little harder so he can afford a petrol car...
And finally finish by racing this peasant off the lights:
The first example is just daft. Do they make marine petrol engines beside outboard motors? Then tell this car owner he really should work a little harder so he can afford a petrol car...
And finally finish by racing this peasant off the lights:
The second two are brilliant though. A pair of expensive motors that for no apparent reason needed to be slightly better on fuel and their respective price increase a little bit.
Does nobody else see a diesel as no more than a necessary evil the average man may have to put up with because it's £1.40 a litre?
My point is that a diesel is just their to save you money. Buying a £60k car isn't action of somebody in financial difficulty so why the fancy oil burner when a V8 sounds better?
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