RE: Chris Harris video: Toyota GT 86
Discussion
To be fair that does come across in the script, or at least it did to me. There's an assessment of throttle response, driving position, noise, cabin etc etc, it's just that most of the visual imagery was of the thing hanging its back end out. Chris also made the point that there was little point commenting on the ride as the quality of the circuit's surface was so good by comparison to the road.
Fittster said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
and the nissan 370z as it can be bought new for 25-26k
The Nissan has a bigger more powerful engine so it's likely to use more fuel, it's greater performance levels will probably result in higher insurance, it's likely to be in a higher tax band, and bigger wheels mean more expensive tyres.The low price you are quoting is relying on discounts, who knows what if any discount will be available on the Toyota.
The fact that Nissan have to slash 5K off the asking price doesn't suggest the residuals of the 370Z will be all that great.
When they dip into the mid to low teens they will represent a LOT of car for the money and coupled with the fact they're quite rare really I think the second hand or third hand buying market might be quite good for them.
I think the same for the GT86. Out of all the threads I've seen I think there are only a handful of buyers with the rest waiting for it to fall into the second hand market when the initial depreciation hit is out the way.
Makes sense
Stuart said:
To be fair that does come across in the script, or at least it did to me. There's an assessment of throttle response, driving position, noise, cabin etc etc, it's just that most of the visual imagery was of the thing hanging its back end out. Chris also made the point that there was little point commenting on the ride as the quality of the circuit's surface was so good by comparison to the road.
And Chris did mention (while oversteering
) that driving like that wasn't necessary to enjoy the car - he said something like driving at 60% of what he was doing would still be fun in this car on the road.I like the video and what appeared to be Chris's genuine enthusiasm for this car.
I swear some posters on these threads are simply not reading the articles/watching the videos properly.....braddo said:
And Chris did mention (while oversteering
) that driving like that wasn't necessary to enjoy the car - he said something like driving at 60% of what he was doing would still be fun in this car on the road.I like the video and what appeared to be Chris's genuine enthusiasm for this car.
I swear some posters on these threads are simply not reading the articles/watching the videos properly.....Well I think the GT 86 is a fantastic car and a brilliant concept. I only hope that other brands follow suit. Personally the amount of fun I have in a car is nowhere near dependent on the amount of power I have. It's easy for me to have just as much fun in a 3cyl Ford KA as it is in the 123d, or my 70 bhp S3 Land rover of even the Griff. Guess it depends on mood and the prevailing conditions, and what it is I want to do.
If it wasn't for the inevitable massive depreciation (and the fact I'm saving up for a new Defender in 2015) I'd gladly swap the 123d for the GT86, as the real world running costs (minus depreciation) are going to be way, way lower than anything else of similar performance in that price bracket.
People on PH always seem to forget that while you can easily buy really quick cars relatively cheaply, they are also far more expensive to keep running. For example the cost of a rear tyre on the 123d is over £220, and they only really last about 12k miles. Especially if you are driving it with a bit of fizz (which is the whole point of cars like this). New tyres on the '86 won't be much more than about £70. You also need to take into account the lack of DPF's, complicated turbos and a 5 year warranty and the almost certanty that nothing will ever go wrong with it, and even if it does there are cheap replacement parts and servicing.
Also the fact that it can legally take 4 people is extremely helpful, for example, are your mates really going to care if they are a bit cramped on the way to the cinema or whatever? I don't think so. The fact that you can use your car as an option whenever transport for more than 2 is needed without having to rely on others for that sort of thing all the time is a big big bonus. You could alays move your seat forward a bit anyway...
And on a final note, how often do you get to unleash 300+ bhp on UK roads anyway? How often do you go faster than 60-80 mph? Not often is it? And if you do it's only a matter of time before the powers that be catch up with you...
If it wasn't for the inevitable massive depreciation (and the fact I'm saving up for a new Defender in 2015) I'd gladly swap the 123d for the GT86, as the real world running costs (minus depreciation) are going to be way, way lower than anything else of similar performance in that price bracket.
People on PH always seem to forget that while you can easily buy really quick cars relatively cheaply, they are also far more expensive to keep running. For example the cost of a rear tyre on the 123d is over £220, and they only really last about 12k miles. Especially if you are driving it with a bit of fizz (which is the whole point of cars like this). New tyres on the '86 won't be much more than about £70. You also need to take into account the lack of DPF's, complicated turbos and a 5 year warranty and the almost certanty that nothing will ever go wrong with it, and even if it does there are cheap replacement parts and servicing.
Also the fact that it can legally take 4 people is extremely helpful, for example, are your mates really going to care if they are a bit cramped on the way to the cinema or whatever? I don't think so. The fact that you can use your car as an option whenever transport for more than 2 is needed without having to rely on others for that sort of thing all the time is a big big bonus. You could alays move your seat forward a bit anyway...
And on a final note, how often do you get to unleash 300+ bhp on UK roads anyway? How often do you go faster than 60-80 mph? Not often is it? And if you do it's only a matter of time before the powers that be catch up with you...
jimslops said:
What size of tyres do they use? £70 seems quite cheap. I pay that on 195/50/15s for a decent tyre (not top of the range)
From blackcircles, you can get some bottom of the range ones (rockstones) for about £53 up to £142 for Michelins, with the middle ground Falken's being about £73. Toyo are about £85. At least with that size there is also plenty of choice as well, depending on how you want to use them.Fittster said:
Maybe you should start comparing like with like.
MX-5 124bhp @1155KG = 108bhp / ton
VW Golf GTTDI 140 138bhp @ 1451kg = 97bhp / ton
Renaultsport Clio 197 187bhp @ 1240Kg = 161bhp / ton
Mazda RX-8 228 bhp @ 1394kg = 166bhp / ton
Porsche 944 S2 211bhp @ 1312Kg = 163bhp / ton.
Honda Integra Type-R (DC2) 187bhp @ 1101 Kg = 187bhp / ton
Lotus Elise S 134 bhp @ 860KG = 158 bhp / ton.
Thats a good list; I'd also add the E30 M3 to it. Lauded as one of the best drivers cars around, even now - and the reason its sweet match of balance/power/grip. The same reason the GT86 seems to be receiving critical acclaim.MX-5 124bhp @1155KG = 108bhp / ton
VW Golf GTTDI 140 138bhp @ 1451kg = 97bhp / ton
Renaultsport Clio 197 187bhp @ 1240Kg = 161bhp / ton
Mazda RX-8 228 bhp @ 1394kg = 166bhp / ton
Porsche 944 S2 211bhp @ 1312Kg = 163bhp / ton.
Honda Integra Type-R (DC2) 187bhp @ 1101 Kg = 187bhp / ton
Lotus Elise S 134 bhp @ 860KG = 158 bhp / ton.
IIRC E30 M3 was roughly 190bhp & 1250kg so slightly lower power/weight than the GT86....
Stuart said:
That's a very interesting observation. I drove one about 18 months ago and thoroughly enjoyed it, even though it was completely different approach to a modern M drive.
Yes very interesting...Others to compare are the 968cs and M3mk1 would make for a very INTERESTING comparison. j
Stuart said:
trackdemon said:
IIRC E30 M3 was roughly 190bhp & 1250kg so slightly lower power/weight than the GT86....
That's a very interesting observation. I drove one about 18 months ago and thoroughly enjoyed it, even though it was completely different approach to a modern M drive. Lot of talk of turbo/supercharged versions both factory & aftermarket. Personally I think a super revvy, slightly larger 250bhp/190lb ft motor would fill the 'faster version' role much better whilst remaining faithful to the designers ethos. Think E30M3 > E30 M3 EVO II....
chrisharris said:
This isn't an M3. It asks much more of the driver to execute gratuitous slides. You need to unsettle the car more subtly, use momentum to help create yaw, then pounce on the opportunity, and extract the most from it by throwing just the right amount of gas at the suggestion of a slide, nurture it and ride it out. It's quite tricky to start with, but once you find a rhythm, it's a blast. Pointless info, I know, but then this isn't What Car?
kambites said:
'tis a fair point - I couldn't give a damn how well this thing goes sideways, personally, I just don't do that on the public road.
A proper review of how it drives when not pointing sideways would be nice.
@kambites are [b]you[/] the guy from What car? maybe this is a better Toyota GT 86 reviewA proper review of how it drives when not pointing sideways would be nice.
rs48635 said:
@kambites are [b]you[/] the guy from What car? maybe this is a better Toyota GT 86 review
Harsh. It's a reasonably opinion to express IMHO. The main problem with all this new found love for the Toyota, is that;
Where was the press in the last 8 or ten years begging and advocating hard for the manufactures to build smaller cars with smaller, wheels, and more usable everyday handling? No one was pressing for them to make cars like this. Indeed most of the press was banging on about 300/400/500/600/700 hp mega beasts that could drive the ring so fast and never fall off due to massive wheel and tires combinations.
I wish we had this level of grass roots desire for makers to get back to their roots years ago. Quite frankly it seems like toyota had more passion and drive towards making this happen than did the press. j
Where was the press in the last 8 or ten years begging and advocating hard for the manufactures to build smaller cars with smaller, wheels, and more usable everyday handling? No one was pressing for them to make cars like this. Indeed most of the press was banging on about 300/400/500/600/700 hp mega beasts that could drive the ring so fast and never fall off due to massive wheel and tires combinations.
I wish we had this level of grass roots desire for makers to get back to their roots years ago. Quite frankly it seems like toyota had more passion and drive towards making this happen than did the press. j
We had a nice conversation about whether cars like this new toyota could work about 2 years ago- a conversation the mainstream press did not have. Indeed I'd say some Ph'er's have had some rather more insightful posts than the press have...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by j123 on Thursday 9th February 20:32
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