RE: Ringside Seat: is the 'ring relevant?
Discussion
TheHeretic said:
It's been an awesome car for many years. The Drift king was hooning the hoonery out of his since the 90's I believe.
and that makes it an awesome car? It may be RWD and great for going around a track side ways, but as a car to use everyday? I have never driven one so I can't comment from experience, but up until the announcement of the GT86, it never appeared in articles and used as a reference point for great cars in the way 205 GTIs, or Golf GTIs, or MX-5s, or even Toyota Supras, are referenced. Yes, it has always been known as a cult car, but....?rajkohli81 said:
In 1999 Toyota released a car called the Celica VVTI the 140 bhp version had the following spec 185 carbs, 60 in 8.7 and 36 mpg..insurance grp was only 11 too! the 190 bhp version hit 60 in 7 and offered 33mpg with 199 carbs
but the Celica VVTI didn't have carburettors..it was fuel injected! 
Si_man306 said:
b) The toyota doesn't depreciate like a stone like the RX8 has done due to its extensive issues.
The RX-8 didn't depreciate like a stone due to issues. It depreciated due to massive petrol price rises and VED increases. I think 2008 was the year that really killed it (typically also the year we bought one). We watched the used prices plummet when the government announced the VED changes and every time the petrol prices rose so the prices plummeted. When they petrol dropped again the prices rose but I don't think it ever recovered.
Munich said:
and that makes it an awesome car? It may be RWD and great for going around a track side ways, but as a car to use everyday? I have never driven one so I can't comment from experience, but up until the announcement of the GT86, it never appeared in articles and used as a reference point for great cars in the way 205 GTIs, or Golf GTIs, or MX-5s, or even Toyota Supras, are referenced. Yes, it has always been known as a cult car, but....?
OK then, it isn't. Pointless arguing about something entirely subjective. Despite having yet to drive a GT86, it's going to have to be VERY good to be better than a Prodrive RX8 and even then by how much of a margin? The RX8 also has a bit more poke which is nice to have.
Comparing new vs new the GT86 makes a MUCH better ownership proposition because of the ridiculous MPG and VED of the Mazda. But as a 2nd hand buy you get so much RX8 for your money. You can get a low mileage '58' plate R3 model for sub £9k. Most of the problems you get with them are caused by poor maintainance so if you buy a newish one and look after it then it should be fine.
Comparing new vs new the GT86 makes a MUCH better ownership proposition because of the ridiculous MPG and VED of the Mazda. But as a 2nd hand buy you get so much RX8 for your money. You can get a low mileage '58' plate R3 model for sub £9k. Most of the problems you get with them are caused by poor maintainance so if you buy a newish one and look after it then it should be fine.
Let's not forget that when the AE86 was superseded by the AE9X, the later car was heralded as a better car in every way (perhaps aside from tail-out hooliganism). I remember when they started showing up at bathurst in the late '80s, the RWD cars were vastly outpaced by their offspring.
I'm in partial agreement with the author here... The GT86 is a return to low-frills fun with handling and power that makes said fun accessible at sensible speeds on the road. This is the sort of thing the MX5 has been doing well since its inception. In that way it's nothing new.
While I'm no fan of the RX8, I do fail to see what all the hype is about with the new '86. I just hope they male them ridiculously easy to modify since that's where a lot of the '86's fan base is coming from.... if they've not designed the engine bay big enough to take a JZ powerplant, they've missed a trick.
I'm in partial agreement with the author here... The GT86 is a return to low-frills fun with handling and power that makes said fun accessible at sensible speeds on the road. This is the sort of thing the MX5 has been doing well since its inception. In that way it's nothing new.
While I'm no fan of the RX8, I do fail to see what all the hype is about with the new '86. I just hope they male them ridiculously easy to modify since that's where a lot of the '86's fan base is coming from.... if they've not designed the engine bay big enough to take a JZ powerplant, they've missed a trick.
Munich said:
and that makes it an awesome car? It may be RWD and great for going around a track side ways, but as a car to use everyday? I have never driven one so I can't comment from experience, but up until the announcement of the GT86, it never appeared in articles and used as a reference point for great cars in the way 205 GTIs, or Golf GTIs, or MX-5s, or even Toyota Supras, are referenced. Yes, it has always been known as a cult car, but....?
I don't see why a normal one couldn't be used everyday.That Corolla had been making the pages of tuner car mags long before the GT-86. "Cult" car sort of implies that it is awesome to at least a select few. Does a car have to be awesome for its image to be invoked? It certainly helps, but I don't think it's a requisite. It's just to give an idea of what influenced them and a nod of recognition to those who kept the flame burning.
To be fair this sounds harsh but i tend to agree (o:
youbeenspied said:
Dale,
May I commend you on your story but please get a grip on reality.
"Twice last year I was nearly run clean off the road by suicidal 'scoop' photographers hanging from the passenger windows of cheap rentals taking to the pavements to try and catch a better shot of the GT 86 mule running between the track and workshop."
It was only unloaded the day before the VLN and the pictures was taken without any speeding or chasing in the streets.
I hasten to add that all cars arriving at the industry pool driving tend to drive past the complex and end up on the ring, so your dramatisation of paparazzi chasing the royal family isnt the case as you tend to know where they are heading.
Also I hasten to add I drove round the ring in a BMW M5 and a Range Rover Sport taking these pictures.
So your stereotype of spy shooters driving cheap rentals, which in reality a rental is a brand new car is pretty unfounded.
So Before you devalue a trade you have tried to emulate think about the position your in where all your content is on the back of somebody elses subsidy.
May I commend you on your story but please get a grip on reality.
"Twice last year I was nearly run clean off the road by suicidal 'scoop' photographers hanging from the passenger windows of cheap rentals taking to the pavements to try and catch a better shot of the GT 86 mule running between the track and workshop."
It was only unloaded the day before the VLN and the pictures was taken without any speeding or chasing in the streets.
I hasten to add that all cars arriving at the industry pool driving tend to drive past the complex and end up on the ring, so your dramatisation of paparazzi chasing the royal family isnt the case as you tend to know where they are heading.
Also I hasten to add I drove round the ring in a BMW M5 and a Range Rover Sport taking these pictures.
So your stereotype of spy shooters driving cheap rentals, which in reality a rental is a brand new car is pretty unfounded.
So Before you devalue a trade you have tried to emulate think about the position your in where all your content is on the back of somebody elses subsidy.
Rx8Babe said:
I apologise for replying to something not quite on topic, but Tony's basically accusing me of lying to you all and he's taking things very personally because he makes a living out of it (obviously a very good one with the M5/RRS comments). My own blog is more of a general thing, and my occasional 'scoop' shots with a 200-quid EOS400D are not welcome by all! Anyway, the POINT is that Tony of Pistonspy thinks I painted all snappers as Diana-chasing pappys.... So let me put the record straight. Most snappers are professional, but a small number are still positively horrendous.I work in Nürburg village, on Burgstraße. The Subaru workshop is also on Burgstraße, a few doors closer to the castle. Both instances where life and limb were put in danger occurred in Nürburg. Both were examples of the road car prototype driving from T13 entrance to the workshop on Burgstraße, through the village. At this point in the development cycle Subaru were very keen on preventing close-up photography...
Incident A: The three abreast overtake.
Subaru drives down high street from T13, with minder vehicle following closely. A rented Fiat Panda is the third car. Panda goes to overtake the minder vehicle AND the Subaru... minder vehicle chooses to overtake instead (to prevent the snapper overtake and close-up photos), BUT Panda (with snapper hung from window) keeps it planted and the whole lot come three abreast down the road, two wheels of the snapper chariot on the footpath as I pull the spotty dog back on the lead so hard I'm surprised she could breathe afterwards.
Incident B: The roadblock.
I'm emerging from a tiny snicket in the trusty Avensis. I look right towards the castle. Clear. I look left, BRZ/GT86 protoype approaching. And on the footpath is an A-class mercedes and a snapper. Plenty of time to emerge from the junction, my foot twitches on the clutch, but yesterday's experience with the Panda pilot makes me cautious. So I sit there and wait. Just as well! As the prototype gets close to the A-class, the minder car again emerges from behind and both cars gun it, two abreast in first gear, towards and past my junction at speed. The minder vehicle was simply 'blocking' the snappers, but if I'd chosen to emerge, it would have been a nasty accident.
Now those are the two most extreme examples of stupidity and fervour. And they were both with the same car... the GT86/BRZ. Which is why I alluded to it in the 500-word piece above. The joy of PH is that we have space underneath to build on stuff. So now you have the full story, not just a passing allusion.
The truth is that above examples are not the 'normal'. The 'normal' is that manufacturers don't even care - if they're at the point where they can drive around the 'Ring, then it's not a problem for people to take photos on the road either. In fact, to prevent stupidity like above, quite a few 'spyshots' are the product of gentleman's agreements between snappers, PR staff and magazines. Oftentimes I will drive to work past a prototype car making multiple passes for the cameras at an agreed rendez-vous. The usual thing for the less-inspiring and work-man-like snappers is to simply park on the roundabout at the old Zakspeeed workshop and take photos of cars pausing at the junction. Very safe. Both myself and Tony (I think?) love to see the prototypes doing their 'thing' on the actual Nordschleife though. This actually requires a little bit of local knowledge and confidence in knowing which corners are lit at which time of day etc... hence why many of the shots you see are on the street. I don't really do that, because I take photos for fun. Not just for the 'scoop'.
Dale,
Thanks for the reply I was hoping that you would address it, the situation is that Subaru didn't use minder cars but do sometimes avoid if possible photos being taken.
The fact is in the light of mobile phones and the amount of SLR equipped people visiting and taking well earned memories away from the nordschleife, everybody likes to include a spy shot or 2.
The fact is this tends to be exaggerated by a camouflaged prototype and then the excitement commences which usually means the cat and mouse hunt begins, and if you don't know the routes or the area it tends to result in the reported actions. (Little tip if you see it leaving the garage it will always be back!)
But from all the time spent there the biggest issue I have encountered is the excitable teenagers & Adults driving around the many awe inspiring roads as if there in the Caracciola Karussell.
The place is a dangerous most of the time because its fuelled by testosterone and late puberty, I should know I have been there.
Have Fun!
Thanks for the reply I was hoping that you would address it, the situation is that Subaru didn't use minder cars but do sometimes avoid if possible photos being taken.
The fact is in the light of mobile phones and the amount of SLR equipped people visiting and taking well earned memories away from the nordschleife, everybody likes to include a spy shot or 2.
The fact is this tends to be exaggerated by a camouflaged prototype and then the excitement commences which usually means the cat and mouse hunt begins, and if you don't know the routes or the area it tends to result in the reported actions. (Little tip if you see it leaving the garage it will always be back!)
But from all the time spent there the biggest issue I have encountered is the excitable teenagers & Adults driving around the many awe inspiring roads as if there in the Caracciola Karussell.
The place is a dangerous most of the time because its fuelled by testosterone and late puberty, I should know I have been there.
Have Fun!
Edited by youbeenspied on Saturday 11th February 10:39
Odd discussion this. It starts by stating a clio cup is faster. I can imagine than that a tickled 205 or r5 is too. Than the article admits the open top mx5 offers the same rwd fun. So would other convertibles, say a Z3 or Z4. Talking about beemers, an old m3 would be faster, rwd and a lot cheaper to buy and run. An old Alfa would need serious tuning to keep up, but if only for hooning can be ideal.
So why would anyone want to own or ring the Toyota or RX? There is other stuff out there that is better and cheaper for the job.
Unless you just like them. But then why would the ring be relevant?
So why would anyone want to own or ring the Toyota or RX? There is other stuff out there that is better and cheaper for the job.
Unless you just like them. But then why would the ring be relevant?
errek72 said:
Odd discussion this. It starts by stating a clio cup is faster. I can imagine than that a tickled 205 or r5 is too. Than the article admits the open top mx5 offers the same rwd fun. So would other convertibles, say a Z3 or Z4. Talking about beemers, an old m3 would be faster, rwd and a lot cheaper to buy and run. An old Alfa would need serious tuning to keep up, but if only for hooning can be ideal.
So why would anyone want to own or ring the Toyota or RX? There is other stuff out there that is better and cheaper for the job.
Unless you just like them. But then why would the ring be relevant?
An old M3 cheaper to run than a brand new Toyota? So why would anyone want to own or ring the Toyota or RX? There is other stuff out there that is better and cheaper for the job.
Unless you just like them. But then why would the ring be relevant?
Si_man306 said:
I would hope that:
a) The toyota is a more reliable car with significantly better mpg (19 plays 40)
b) The toyota doesn't depreciate like a stone like the RX8 has done due to its extensive issues.
Not difficult to sell someone a GT86 vs the RX8 on that basis really?
(Nismo 350z owner)
a) The toyota is a more reliable car with significantly better mpg (19 plays 40)
b) The toyota doesn't depreciate like a stone like the RX8 has done due to its extensive issues.
Not difficult to sell someone a GT86 vs the RX8 on that basis really?
(Nismo 350z owner)
I owned an RX8 , biggest mistake ever. They are claustrophobic to drive , drink oil ( they even recommend you carry some with you ), and fuel ... I never bettered 19 mpg. I'll never know why Mazda continued to throw money at that car / engine . Prior to that I had an MR2 T bar , now that was a far better car. I wish they still made them and am looking forward to the introduction of the GT.86 and the BRZ .
Kong said:
An old M3 cheaper to run than a brand new Toyota?
Errhm, as a weekend / fun car? Yes. Or do you honestly believe new 'performance' toyota wear parts will be cheap? Or that second hand b/ breaker bmw body parts will be more expensive than new items from the dealer?I'm not talking about high mileage here. I'm assuming there are other cars for milemunchung.
I dont get this article its all over the place. You lambast toyota for shrugging off the importance of a ring time and then go on to say it would have its arse handed to it by a clio. Should toyoyta use that in the marketing campaign "buy a toyota gt86 it had its arse handed to it at the ring by a clio". I can see why you dont work in advertising
Next you throw in the great value rx8 a car that has its own debate not worth revisiting as those who own one will tell you its bullet proof and those that dont will tell you they are made of glass. Should toyota be saying "why buy a new car when a 2nd hand mazda will cost you less"
Toyota have made a good handling affordable coupe. Some are excited as its a car they can afford and would like to run. Some are excited as its a change in direction for a company that gave us the gt4, supra, mr2 etc... Its probably the first time in a long while we have had a new car aimed at the enthusiast on a budget, yes second hand cars are cheaper and one day this will fall into that bracket.
Toyota have marketed this as a fun affordable car and seemingly are doing a good job, i dont get why some have a problem with that. Ring times make for great marketing oppertunities but in this instance wouldnt work therefore toyota play down the importance. They arent the only ones who think that the ring isnt worth the hype.
My opinion is that if ring times are all you care about then its a gtr you want. Nothing is as fast as cheap and if its not fast enough you can chop half a ton out of it, boost horsepower to 1200bhp and chuck some enormous slicks on it. Then instead of driving it yourself give it to a pro race driver with intimate knowledge of the ring as it'll go alot faster than if you drive it yourself.
Next you throw in the great value rx8 a car that has its own debate not worth revisiting as those who own one will tell you its bullet proof and those that dont will tell you they are made of glass. Should toyota be saying "why buy a new car when a 2nd hand mazda will cost you less"
Toyota have made a good handling affordable coupe. Some are excited as its a car they can afford and would like to run. Some are excited as its a change in direction for a company that gave us the gt4, supra, mr2 etc... Its probably the first time in a long while we have had a new car aimed at the enthusiast on a budget, yes second hand cars are cheaper and one day this will fall into that bracket.
Toyota have marketed this as a fun affordable car and seemingly are doing a good job, i dont get why some have a problem with that. Ring times make for great marketing oppertunities but in this instance wouldnt work therefore toyota play down the importance. They arent the only ones who think that the ring isnt worth the hype.
My opinion is that if ring times are all you care about then its a gtr you want. Nothing is as fast as cheap and if its not fast enough you can chop half a ton out of it, boost horsepower to 1200bhp and chuck some enormous slicks on it. Then instead of driving it yourself give it to a pro race driver with intimate knowledge of the ring as it'll go alot faster than if you drive it yourself.
Ha, the driver, good one. This is when ring times lost all relevance to me:
http://www.autobild.de/bilder/duell-des-jahres-mer...
Pensioned racing driver Klaus Ludwig in an A class takes on a car journo in a 911 turbo, and beats them by 2 minutes. On the same day, same conditions.
http://www.autobild.de/bilder/duell-des-jahres-mer...
Pensioned racing driver Klaus Ludwig in an A class takes on a car journo in a 911 turbo, and beats them by 2 minutes. On the same day, same conditions.
"Let's face facts, a Clio Cup is going to kick the Toyota's arse all the way around the Nordschleife." It is happening in the future so it is not yet a fact. Given the similarities in power and weight how can you say this with certainty? What constitutes a kicking? 3 seconds? 1/2 a minute? 2 minutes? Pardon me but I think this is a hyperbole.
What constantly amuses me is this 'ring time dick swinging. I am suggesting if you put 99.9% of people in any car that has a 'ring time they will fail to get close. What most people seem to forget it is not the lap time of just the car; it is the lap time of the car and driver.
IAJO said:
My opinion is that if ring times are all you care about then its a gtr you want. Nothing is as fast as cheap and if its not fast enough you can chop half a ton out of it, boost horsepower to 1200bhp and chuck some enormous slicks on it. Then instead of driving it yourself give it to a pro race driver with intimate knowledge of the ring as it'll go alot faster than if you drive it yourself.
+1What constantly amuses me is this 'ring time dick swinging. I am suggesting if you put 99.9% of people in any car that has a 'ring time they will fail to get close. What most people seem to forget it is not the lap time of just the car; it is the lap time of the car and driver.
Edited by spameister on Saturday 11th February 20:26
errek72 said:
Ha, the driver, good one. This is when ring times lost all relevance to me:
http://www.autobild.de/bilder/duell-des-jahres-mer...
Pensioned racing driver Klaus Ludwig in an A class takes on a car journo in a 911 turbo, and beats them by 2 minutes. On the same day, same conditions.
What's unusual about this?http://www.autobild.de/bilder/duell-des-jahres-mer...
Pensioned racing driver Klaus Ludwig in an A class takes on a car journo in a 911 turbo, and beats them by 2 minutes. On the same day, same conditions.
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