Bring back ride quality!!

[JVaughan]

I sold my Mondeo ST and opted to buy an old 406 estate. I love it .. cheap tyres, and suspension that bounds and wallows over the bumps as opposed to the spine shattering ride the ST gave me.

Also, I run standard 225x50 x15's on the TVR .. sidewall flex is scarey on the limit but it doesnt half make the ride better!!

[aussieal]

For those inclined to do it, how best would the PH community approach improving the ride quality on say for example your every day German saloon?

Smaller wheels with higher profile tyres is an obvious one. What about springs and dampers? In terms of dampers would something like koni's FSD's be worth considering?

[JVaughan]

aussieal said:

Smaller wheels with higher profile tyres is an obvious one. What about springs and dampers? In terms of dampers would something like koni's FSD's be worth considering?

Yes, I went from 18" wheels with 225x45's to a super soft 195x60 15"

[kambites]

aussieal said:

For those inclined to do it, how best would the PH community approach improving the ride quality on say for example your every day German saloon?

Smaller wheels with higher profile tyres is an obvious one. What about springs and dampers? In terms of dampers would something like koni's FSD's be worth considering?

The weight of the wheel is as important as the size, perhaps more so.

The exact model of tyre makes a significant difference.

Beyond that, you're looking at spring/damper changes. Picking the damper first is not the right way to go about it - it's the springs that absorb the shock when you hit a bump, the dampers just damp the motion to stop the car continuing to bounce up and down once past the bump. Pick a desired spring rate then find some dampers which are either designed specifically for that spring rate or adjustable around the right kind of stiffness so you can fiddle. The aim (for both optimal handling and ride) is to have the dampers as soft as possible whilst still providing enough damping.

[Guvernator]

But why should it be up to us to "fix" ride quality issues by fitting different wheels or suspension? Surely the manufacturer should be doing that when developing the car? Aren't these cars put through hundreds of hours of rigorous testing on crap road surfaces? Are you telling me not one single chassis engineer said "Hang on a sec, this is a bit sh*t".

Even professional car journalists don't seem that interested in this topic. Is it some sort of motoring trade conspiracy perhaps to ensure that cars fall apart quicker due to being rattled around all the time? I really can't think why this has been allowed to happen.

Oh and for all those making snide comments about old men and slippers, grow up. I have driven my fair share of cars, most with some sort of sporting intentions. I even went through a max power stage in my mispent youth where any car I had was immdediately "lowered" whether it needed it or not and even those cars ride qualities where better than the supposed luxury German marque I drive now.

[kambites]

Guvernator said:

But why should it be up to us to "fix" ride quality issues by fitting different wheels or suspension?

Manufacturers produce cars that will make them as much profit as possible. This means giving people what they want as cheaply as possible - hence big yet heavy wheels (light wheels are expensive); stiff springs; and poor quality damping (decent dampers are also expensive).

Those of us who care more about how a car drives than what it looks like are in a minority. Chassis engineers don't generally have a very loud voice in most car companies, accountants and market analysts do. I think this is why small companies like Lotus produce cars with such exceptional ride quality, but probably also why they don't manage to make any money.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 16th February 10:12

[B'stard Child]

aussieal said:

For those inclined to do it, how best would the PH community approach improving the ride quality on say for example your every day German saloon?

Smaller wheels with higher profile tyres is an obvious one. What about springs and dampers? In terms of dampers would something like koni's FSD's be worth considering?

E38 740 - I swapped from 18 inch rims to 16 inch rims and it's now bearable (slightly jiggly but that's a complaint I have with BMW's anyway)

I've ruled out changing dampers and springs because 99% of replacements (even non performance OE equivilents) will have a 20-30% increase in damping rate as std so only alternative will be to change current ones for BMW replacement parts and I can't justify that

My proper solution would be to sell the car and purchase another Vauxhall Senator 24V as that knocks the 740 out of the play area for ride and handling qualities on OE equipment

Edited by B'stard Child on Thursday 16th February 12:10

[Kozy]

B'stard Child said:

I've ruled out changing dampers and springs because 99% of replacements (even non performance OE equivilents) will have a 20-30% increase in damping rate as std so only alternative will be to change current ones for BMW replacement parts and I can't justify that

Why not buy some Bilsteins and have the vendor valve them to your requirements. Yes it costs a tad more than buying off the shelf units, but if you like the car enough then it would be worthwhile.

[B'stard Child]

Kozy said:

B'stard Child said:

I've ruled out changing dampers and springs because 99% of replacements (even non performance OE equivilents) will have a 20-30% increase in damping rate as std so only alternative will be to change current ones for BMW replacement parts and I can't justify that

Why not buy some Bilsteins and have the vendor valve them to your requirements. Yes it costs a tad more than buying off the shelf units, but if you like the car enough then it would be worthwhile.

I don't - it was purchased as a Senator replacement after the last one I owned suffered the inevitale tinworm issues and I didn't have the skills to weld it up to a high std - I could do it now so Senator is on the shopping list for when my other projects are done but it's no where near as good*

(*) IMHO - been discussed before and all parties agreed to differ.

[hairyben]

Funny how we laugh and sneer at american metal so much still when our own roads have degraded to the point a waftomatic barge or huge truck is probably the best thing for daily chore driving.

[Caulkhead]

It seems to me there is a lot of subjectivity when it comes to defining a good ride. For some it's just softer the better. For me it's about how well controlled the ride is in all conditions which is why up until recently the best riding car I'd ever been in was an RS200 and now it's a McLaren MP4-12C. Both have astonishingly good rides in a car you just wouldn't expect to find it.

[angusc43]

corvus said:

Vladimir said:

It's a very strange trend and I wonder when it will stop - when wheels actually meet in the middle of the car?

There you go



I give you the future of wheel design

Edited by corvus on Wednesday 15th February 20:48

Look, if I'm in the market for an Audi S Line (with the little dag dag engine) I'll be having the iron roller front AND back thankyou very much.

[swilkins999]

aussieal said:

For those inclined to do it, how best would the PH community approach improving the ride quality on say for example your every day German saloon?

Smaller wheels with higher profile tyres is an obvious one. What about springs and dampers? In terms of dampers would something like koni's FSD's be worth considering?

I had an Audi RS6 avant, it came with 19's and I found the ride poor, so bought some 18's (everyone thought I was mad) and with the higher sidewalls they improved the ride by 15-20%. then, the common fault arose with the DRC (dynamic ride control) so I got it fitted with Bilsteins (£4k!) and these improved the ride again by another 20%, the damping was sublime and the ride on motorways was superb. Still firm but not crashy. When the car had to go and i switched to a 320d tourer i specced the 17 inch wheels, these are run flats so are still too firm butI would expect they would improve if they were non runflats. Finally, my westfield has 13inch wheels with the standard 80 profile 185s and the ride on that is also good, all things considered. I would say a bit of squish to the suspension and tyres is a welcome thing, i hate to think what a Rangey sport on 20's is like around town...!

[Vladimir]

swilkins999 said:

I had an Audi RS6 avant, it came with 19's and I found the ride poor, so bought some 18's (everyone thought I was mad) and with the higher sidewalls they improved the ride by 15-20%. then, the common fault arose with the DRC (dynamic ride control) so I got it fitted with Bilsteins (£4k!) and these improved the ride again by another 20%, the damping was sublime and the ride on motorways was superb. Still firm but not crashy. When the car had to go and i switched to a 320d tourer i specced the 17 inch wheels, these are run flats so are still too firm butI would expect they would improve if they were non runflats. Finally, my westfield has 13inch wheels with the standard 80 profile 185s and the ride on that is also good, all things considered. I would say a bit of squish to the suspension and tyres is a welcome thing, i hate to think what a Rangey sport on 20's is like around town...!

[Dracoro]

Guvernator said:

But why should it be up to us to "fix" ride quality issues by fitting different wheels or suspension?

Well, because "you" (not literally you of course), when buying the cars news strayed away from buying the model with 16 inch wheels in "SE" spec and opted for the 19 inch wheels with low profile (or worse still, runflats) tyres and "sport" suspension. In other words, "you" broke it in the first place

[Guvernator]

Dracoro said:

Guvernator said:

But why should it be up to us to "fix" ride quality issues by fitting different wheels or suspension?

Well, because "you" (not literally you of course), when buying the cars news strayed away from buying the model with 16 inch wheels in "SE" spec and opted for the 19 inch wheels with low profile (or worse still, runflats) tyres and "sport" suspension. In other words, "you" broke it in the first place

Nope, car is an SE spec with 18" wheels, however unfortunately the 335i comes with "sports" suspension as standard, even on the SE! A friends 330i on normal suspension is a bit better I have to say. I suppose it also doesn't help that run flats have to be inflated to a much higher pressure than normal tyres.

I think my next option is to try non-runflats with a slightly bigger profile. Does anyone have any recommendations on a tyre manufacturer which gives good ride quality? I've looked on the web but tyres don't seem to ever be rated on ride quality, only on grip, tread life and wet weather handling, all of which are mostly irrelevant on a decent modern tyre to be honest.

[kambites]

Guvernator said:

I think my next option is to try non-runflats with a slightly bigger profile. Does anyone have any recommendations on a tyre manufacturer which gives good ride quality? I've looked on the web but tyres don't seem to ever be rated on ride quality, only on grip, tread life and wet weather handling, all of which are mostly irrelevant on a decent modern tyre to be honest.

In my experience anything will be vastly better than the run-flats you have on there now. Generally speaking softer side-walls give a better ride but make the steering less sharp and destroy some of the steering feel (no idea I'f you'd notice that on something as numb as a 3-series, but it's bloody obvious in the Elise). I know Toyo T1-R are very soft, but I don't know about other brands.

The model of tyre seems to make a much bigger difference to the road noise than the ride quality, if that matters.

[dhariwab]

hairyben said:

Funny how we laugh and sneer at american metal so much still when our own roads have degraded to the point a waftomatic barge or huge truck is probably the best thing for daily chore driving.

+1 My roly poly pitching diving jeep grand cherokee with super soft seats was the best thing in which to explore the great outdoors of the West Midlands

[MC Bodge]

I've said it before but we should remember that cars are a status symbol that allow some people to indulge their fantasies.

Just because somebody is an inactive person with no knowledge of cars or driving who spends most of their time on the road sat about 1 metre behind the car in front in traffic and rarely ventures beyond dual-carriageways, shopping malls and suburbia shouldn't prevent them from buying a car that has supposedly 'sporting'(and preferably 'racing') pretensions and/or gives the appearance of a fast, active, outdoor lifestyle. They're buying into a dream.

I'm quite happy to sit here in my ivory tower laughing at them though

[PumpkinSteve]

Do you think going from 195/45/R16 to 165/75/R14, giving a tyre sidewall height increase of 26mm, would make any significant difference in ride quality?