Bring back ride quality!!
Discussion
FreiWild said:
That's something I really don't get. Why would someone buy a diesel barge that probably is designed for comfortable mile munching and make it more "sporty"? Seems like a waste of money and potential.
In my case three reasons,firstly I have a bad back and the standard seats / comfort seats don't support enough where as the sports seats are one of the most comfortable seats I have ever sat in. Second I was coming from a 9 911's inna row as daily drivers and the standard car felt too much like a barge especially on country lanes where we live and felt very loose on high speed motorway turns. Thirdly the standard car made both me and my other half feel car sick as I guess we had always been used to a crashy and hard ride from years of sports cars So I thick basically it was the best compromise for us, hope that makes sense
Phib
NadiR said:
For me, the worst offenders are Audi's. My uncle had a 2009 Audi A4 SE for few months last year, which is supposedly the "comfort" version as opposed to the S Line, and my god the ride was terribly awful. At every bump you went over the car would judder and the ride was also very firm. Also, every other Audi I've been in (A3's and other A4's) had firm rides and terrible ride quality. I can only imagine how bad S Line versions are.
It isn't me just being a grumpy 17 year old, but apart from the (rather nice) 170 TDI engine, and the lovely interior, the car was awful in every other way. When I sat in the front, alongside my uncle, no one apart from my (small) Nan could fit in the back. Although both of us being 6"4 and 6"5 might have something to do with it we never have this problem in any other car.
I for one believe that we should go back to the days for when Audi actually did do something different (Quattro for example), and car makers in general weren't sheep, and yes, BRING BACK RIDE QUALITY!
exactly my experience. The A4 SE I had was truly appalling. It isn't me just being a grumpy 17 year old, but apart from the (rather nice) 170 TDI engine, and the lovely interior, the car was awful in every other way. When I sat in the front, alongside my uncle, no one apart from my (small) Nan could fit in the back. Although both of us being 6"4 and 6"5 might have something to do with it we never have this problem in any other car.
I for one believe that we should go back to the days for when Audi actually did do something different (Quattro for example), and car makers in general weren't sheep, and yes, BRING BACK RIDE QUALITY!
Re Audis, I entirely agree. I had an S Sport A4 courtesy car about 7 years ago and it was truly awful.
TBH, you're much better off in a Passat TDI 170. Much better ride, same performance and build quality, cheaper and handles just as well. Of Course, the Passat has a boring middle aged man image, unlike the Audi.....
Which is nice coz Passats tend to not get bought by pushy image conscious management accountant types, but nice people like me (a-hem...) so they make a great second hand buy as they havent been thrashed.
TBH, you're much better off in a Passat TDI 170. Much better ride, same performance and build quality, cheaper and handles just as well. Of Course, the Passat has a boring middle aged man image, unlike the Audi.....
Which is nice coz Passats tend to not get bought by pushy image conscious management accountant types, but nice people like me (a-hem...) so they make a great second hand buy as they havent been thrashed.
Hmm, I love those Masers.....
just to confirm how bad things have got, my wife's 205 GTI 1.9 was less crashy down our potholed bumpy main road last year (before it got resurfaced) than our friends 308 SW HDI and a friends Accord 2.2 CDTI. In fact the GTI is amazingly supple really, but it is a very light car and has tiddly 15 inch wheels!
So everyone's agreed that ride quality is bad, so you are all going to tick the "standard wheel" box when you purchase your next car are you??!! -
just to confirm how bad things have got, my wife's 205 GTI 1.9 was less crashy down our potholed bumpy main road last year (before it got resurfaced) than our friends 308 SW HDI and a friends Accord 2.2 CDTI. In fact the GTI is amazingly supple really, but it is a very light car and has tiddly 15 inch wheels!
So everyone's agreed that ride quality is bad, so you are all going to tick the "standard wheel" box when you purchase your next car are you??!! -
MC Bodge said:
StevieB said:
So everyone's agreed that ride quality is bad, so you are all going to tick the "standard wheel" box when you purchase your next car are you??!!
Yes. I have 16" (the smallest available) steels.2011 Clubman:
Runflats - not selected
Sport suspension - not selected
15" steel wheels (smallest possible) - selected, and kept for use with the winter tyres.
Lightest 15" OEM alloys with tyres bought from eBay for under £100.
Ride quality is as good as it gets for a MINI.
2012 Cooper SD:
Runflats - not selected
Sport suspension - not selected
17" alloys and low profile tyres that came with the Chili pack - swapped for 16" alloys (smallest possible) with higher profile tyres + £400 of accessories to make up the difference, thanks to the very helpful supplying MINI dealer.
Ride quality is as good as it gets for a MINI Cooper S.
Both cars still corner like go karts, grip like limpets, can still run rings round most other cars if you want them to, but now also ride comfortably too.
Edited by Miglia 888 on Sunday 12th February 09:10
MC Bodge said:
Yes. I have 16" (the smallest available) steels.
Yes. Here's my last 5 cars I've owned:
Cayman S. Chose 18s instead of 19s. And then bought 17s off ebay instead!
Alfa 159. Love the look of the 19" Ti wheels. But I had 16" Turismo wheels
BMW 530. M Sports look nice on 19s, but I had 17s.
Audi A4. Replaced the 18s with 17s, but it was still awful.
Focus. Chose 16s instead of 18s.
I fancy a Megane 250. But I'm resisting 19s or Cup chassis until I try it back to back with a non-Cup on 18s.
I've never driven a car that was improved by bigger wheels. Some, like the 1 series and Mini Cooper S are simply ruined by anything bigger than 16s.
It's not about being an old man (as an earlier poster suggested), it is about putting chassis engineering ahead of fashion and styling. I'd hazard a guess that all of the above cars would have been quicker on a typical B road on the smaller wheels, simply because of the suppleness giving more confidence and feedback to the driver.
I'm hoping the trend to low emissions cars means smaller wheels come back into vogue. (Toyota FT86 being the start of a trend.)
Edited by Redlake27 on Sunday 12th February 09:10
Here here (hear hear?)!
One of the things I particularly like about my RX8 is it manages to handle without being rock solid.
I used to think I'd never want a car without stiff suspension and the non-PZ/R3 RX8 takes a bit of adapting to because of its softish springs, but most of the time you're not flat out in bends and the little extra sharpness the R3 has in turn-in is more than compensated by the superior ride, imo.
I can't see me ever going back to a hot-hatch style car now (and I've had a few and enjoyed them greatly). Too old? Probably, but I appreciate the comfort now!
M
PS Of course, there will be plenty of people who say the RX8 is STILL too stiff for the their tastes, but I'm not a fan of the wallowing barge.
One of the things I particularly like about my RX8 is it manages to handle without being rock solid.
I used to think I'd never want a car without stiff suspension and the non-PZ/R3 RX8 takes a bit of adapting to because of its softish springs, but most of the time you're not flat out in bends and the little extra sharpness the R3 has in turn-in is more than compensated by the superior ride, imo.
I can't see me ever going back to a hot-hatch style car now (and I've had a few and enjoyed them greatly). Too old? Probably, but I appreciate the comfort now!
M
PS Of course, there will be plenty of people who say the RX8 is STILL too stiff for the their tastes, but I'm not a fan of the wallowing barge.
StevieB said:
So everyone's agreed that ride quality is bad, so you are all going to tick the "standard wheel" box when you purchase your next car are you??!!
Yep. Can't think of a single car on the market that I wouldn't specify the smallest available wheels on if I was buying new. The 18 inch wheels on our Octavia (bought second hand) will never be going back on because they're awful - the 16 inch wheels I got for winter tyres improve the handling massively. Come summer, I'll get another set of 16s (or possibly light 17s, depending on which gives the better choice of tyres) for it.
Interesting comments thus far about Audis. Brings to mind this article which apparently originated from Auto Express nearly 10 years ago:
"UK Roads Put Audi To The Test
British tarmac is literally being put under the microscope by Audi. Engineers have scanned thousands of miles of our roads because they believe they are the most challenging in the world, and will use the data to revise the suspension on UK-spec A4s.
The firm is coming here because it has developed experimental new damper settings which can dramatically reduce excess car body movement over bumps. Although many manufacturers adapt their products for the UK, Audi has one of the biggest test programmes and regularly brings cars over here to try out new ideas. The data gathered allows bosses back at German HQ to recreate everything from a bumpy backroad to a worn section of motorway.
Last week, Auto Express was invited to drive a prototype with the new suspension set-up. Chassis engineers, led by Audi's handling guru Jos Van-As, wanted our input to help fine-tune the technology. Although the new settings are still in the early stages, if further testing with customers is favourable, all UK Audis could use the changes by the end of the year."
Either their simulation method was poorly executed (a poor substitute for on-site damper tuning), or British roads have gotten worse since then, or the increase in rim sizes have rendered the data obsolete. Possibly all of the above. R8 on magnetic dampers have gotten great reviews however.
"UK Roads Put Audi To The Test
British tarmac is literally being put under the microscope by Audi. Engineers have scanned thousands of miles of our roads because they believe they are the most challenging in the world, and will use the data to revise the suspension on UK-spec A4s.
The firm is coming here because it has developed experimental new damper settings which can dramatically reduce excess car body movement over bumps. Although many manufacturers adapt their products for the UK, Audi has one of the biggest test programmes and regularly brings cars over here to try out new ideas. The data gathered allows bosses back at German HQ to recreate everything from a bumpy backroad to a worn section of motorway.
Last week, Auto Express was invited to drive a prototype with the new suspension set-up. Chassis engineers, led by Audi's handling guru Jos Van-As, wanted our input to help fine-tune the technology. Although the new settings are still in the early stages, if further testing with customers is favourable, all UK Audis could use the changes by the end of the year."
Either their simulation method was poorly executed (a poor substitute for on-site damper tuning), or British roads have gotten worse since then, or the increase in rim sizes have rendered the data obsolete. Possibly all of the above. R8 on magnetic dampers have gotten great reviews however.
phib said:
In my case three reasons,firstly I have a bad back and the standard seats / comfort seats don't support enough where as the sports seats are one of the most comfortable seats I have ever sat in. Second I was coming from a 9 911's inna row as daily drivers and the standard car felt too much like a barge especially on country lanes where we live and felt very loose on high speed motorway turns. Thirdly the standard car made both me and my other half feel car sick as I guess we had always been used to a crashy and hard ride from years of sports cars
So I thick basically it was the best compromise for us, hope that makes sense
Phib
Fair play to you then So I thick basically it was the best compromise for us, hope that makes sense
Phib
turbospud said:
its not just the hard suspension,its the seats too that need attention,havnt found a car yet that didnt give you a numb arse or back problems after 2hrs use, why cant they just fit recaros if they cant design a comfortable seat
I don't think that's a regression though - old cars weren't really any better in that respect. Manufacturers have to produce seats that can hold everyone from 4'10 and six stone up to 6'10 and 25 stone, so it's hardly surprising they aren't perfectly comfortable for everyone. Guibo said:
Interesting comments thus far about Audis. Brings to mind this article which apparently originated from Auto Express nearly 10 years ago:
"UK Roads Put Audi To The Test
British tarmac is literally being put under the microscope by Audi. Engineers have scanned thousands of miles of our roads because they believe they are the most challenging in the world, and will use the data to revise the suspension on UK-spec A4s.
The firm is coming here because it has developed experimental new damper settings which can dramatically reduce excess car body movement over bumps. Although many manufacturers adapt their products for the UK, Audi has one of the biggest test programmes and regularly brings cars over here to try out new ideas. The data gathered allows bosses back at German HQ to recreate everything from a bumpy backroad to a worn section of motorway.
Last week, Auto Express was invited to drive a prototype with the new suspension set-up. Chassis engineers, led by Audi's handling guru Jos Van-As, wanted our input to help fine-tune the technology. Although the new settings are still in the early stages, if further testing with customers is favourable, all UK Audis could use the changes by the end of the year."
Either their simulation method was poorly executed (a poor substitute for on-site damper tuning), or British roads have gotten worse since then, or the increase in rim sizes have rendered the data obsolete. Possibly all of the above. R8 on magnetic dampers have gotten great reviews however.
I've driven several A3s, A4s, TTs and A6s. All of them struggled to find a compromise between ride and handling. on SE type models the bump and rebound of the dampers is too slow to cope with complex surfaces and on S-Line it is as if they dampers have been filled with concrete. It is not just a wheel size thing on Audis, it is a damper issue."UK Roads Put Audi To The Test
British tarmac is literally being put under the microscope by Audi. Engineers have scanned thousands of miles of our roads because they believe they are the most challenging in the world, and will use the data to revise the suspension on UK-spec A4s.
The firm is coming here because it has developed experimental new damper settings which can dramatically reduce excess car body movement over bumps. Although many manufacturers adapt their products for the UK, Audi has one of the biggest test programmes and regularly brings cars over here to try out new ideas. The data gathered allows bosses back at German HQ to recreate everything from a bumpy backroad to a worn section of motorway.
Last week, Auto Express was invited to drive a prototype with the new suspension set-up. Chassis engineers, led by Audi's handling guru Jos Van-As, wanted our input to help fine-tune the technology. Although the new settings are still in the early stages, if further testing with customers is favourable, all UK Audis could use the changes by the end of the year."
Either their simulation method was poorly executed (a poor substitute for on-site damper tuning), or British roads have gotten worse since then, or the increase in rim sizes have rendered the data obsolete. Possibly all of the above. R8 on magnetic dampers have gotten great reviews however.
The strange thing is, they put a lot of the same bits on Skodas and Golfs, most of which I've experienced have been very acceptable, if not in the Ford league for achieving both ride and handling.
I've been fortunate to own some so called 'premium/sporty' cars, but (engine power aside) my favourite A and B road car is my 8 year old Focus Ghia. It is if Ford spent the money on researching damping and steering feel, rather than on fairy light LEDs.
I dislike the term "compromise between ride and handling" because it seems to imply that they are opposites, which simply isn't true - both benefit from a good suspension setup and neither from a stupidly stiff one.
Just drive an M3 back to back with a normal 3-series M-Sport to see what I mean - the M3 both rides and handles better because they've actually set the suspension up properly rather than just bolting on some stiff springs and going to the pub.
Just drive an M3 back to back with a normal 3-series M-Sport to see what I mean - the M3 both rides and handles better because they've actually set the suspension up properly rather than just bolting on some stiff springs and going to the pub.
Miglia 888 said:
Yes. I've also put my money where my mouth is, on both of our last two new cars.
2011 Clubman:
Runflats - not selected
Sport suspension - not selected
15" steel wheels (smallest possible) - selected, and kept for use with the winter tyres.
Lightest 15" OEM alloys with tyres bought from eBay for under £100.
Ride quality is as good as it gets for a MINI.
2012 Cooper SD:
Runflats - not selected
Sport suspension - not selected
17" alloys and low profile tyres that came with the Chili pack - swapped for 16" alloys (smallest possible) with higher profile tyres + £400 of accessories to make up the difference, thanks to the very helpful supplying MINI dealer.
Ride quality is as good as it gets for a MINI Cooper S.
Both cars still corner like go karts, grip like limpets, can still run rings round most other cars if you want them to, but now also ride comfortably too.
I'd be intrigued to learn/ feel how much difference this has made.2011 Clubman:
Runflats - not selected
Sport suspension - not selected
15" steel wheels (smallest possible) - selected, and kept for use with the winter tyres.
Lightest 15" OEM alloys with tyres bought from eBay for under £100.
Ride quality is as good as it gets for a MINI.
2012 Cooper SD:
Runflats - not selected
Sport suspension - not selected
17" alloys and low profile tyres that came with the Chili pack - swapped for 16" alloys (smallest possible) with higher profile tyres + £400 of accessories to make up the difference, thanks to the very helpful supplying MINI dealer.
Ride quality is as good as it gets for a MINI Cooper S.
Both cars still corner like go karts, grip like limpets, can still run rings round most other cars if you want them to, but now also ride comfortably too.
Edited by Miglia 888 on Sunday 12th February 09:10
But I guess it's something that's very hard for consumers such as ourselves to measure.
HBFS said:
I'd be intrigued to learn/ feel how much difference this has made.
But I guess it's something that's very hard for consumers such as ourselves to measure.
Impossible to measure quantifiably. Easy to feel qualitatively if you try it. It makes a huge difference on the cars that I've driven on several different wheel options and the smallest has always been the best, IMO. But I guess it's something that's very hard for consumers such as ourselves to measure.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff