RE: Subaru BRZ: big brother's little brother

[alolympic]

Why fit steel wheels onto a car that is being marketed as a lightweight?
they will massively increase unsprung weight, over a set of similar size lightweight alloys, weird.....

[dtmpower]

alolympic said:

Why fit steel wheels onto a car that is being marketed as a lightweight?
they will massively increase unsprung weight, over a set of similar size lightweight alloys, weird.....

Because this model is aimed at tuners to put their own touch - including swapping the steels for alloys.

[davepoth]

alolympic said:

Why fit steel wheels onto a car that is being marketed as a lightweight?
they will massively increase unsprung weight, over a set of similar size lightweight alloys, weird.....

Nah, probably the last set of production alloy wheels that weighed less than the equivalent steelies were fitted to a Dolly Sprint.

In the other mammoth GT-86 thread someone posted the weights of MINI alloys and steelies, and only the most expensive alloys weighed less than the steel wheels.

[davepoth]

peter450 said:

I think you'l find a lot of sports car buyers, buy on what looks good rather than "Handling" and "Feel" etc, which are very subjective terms bandied about an awful lot, but mean rather differant things to a lot of people

Me for example, if a car rides well, has decent body control, and turns in the same direction as the sterring wheel, i rate that as good handling, or good enough for me at any rate.

All this talk of feel through the wheel etc that journos bang on about just goes over my driving head and hands, maybe i'm just a st driver , but one pothole or rough road surface feels much the same as another through the wheel to me

And that's why the GT-86/BRZ is good - in standard trim the engineers have set it up to drive nicely, not look good.

Feel through the wheel generally comes from not having massively wide low profile tyres that require huge power assistance to turn. In a 1 litre econobox with high profile narrow tyres (something like a 165/75 R13 which is what came on my Fiesta) the tyres are talking to you all the time, both through the steering wheel and through the seat.

Get it loaded up going round a corner at any speed at all and you feel the sidewall load up as the g increases. As the car goes over imperfections in the tarmac you can feel the tread shuffle across the road surface, and hear the little chirrup noise that's distinct from a full on skid noise when you are just about at the ragged edge.

That's what feel is all about. And if you've got feel, handling comes naturally. Just ask those scientists who try to pick up an egg with a robot hand.

[M400 NBL]

davepoth said:

And that's why the GT-86/BRZ is good - in standard trim the engineers have set it up to drive nicely, not look good.

Feel through the wheel generally comes from not having massively wide low profile tyres that require huge power assistance to turn. In a 1 litre econobox with high profile narrow tyres (something like a 165/75 R13 which is what came on my Fiesta) the tyres are talking to you all the time, both through the steering wheel and through the seat.

Get it loaded up going round a corner at any speed at all and you feel the sidewall load up as the g increases. As the car goes over imperfections in the tarmac you can feel the tread shuffle across the road surface, and hear the little chirrup noise that's distinct from a full on skid noise when you are just about at the ragged edge.

That's what feel is all about. And if you've got feel, handling comes naturally. Just ask those scientists who try to pick up an egg with a robot hand.

I reckon with a decent PLC program, forgiving matreials on the robot hands and pressure sensors, a robot could easily pick up an egg. It would rely on the 2 ends easily accessible where they are VERY strong compared to the possible sensitivity of pressure sensors.

And as for feeling the road/controlling the power through the tyres, much easier in a little fiesta with not much bhp/ton. Obvioulsy the feel would be nigh on zero with soft springs/dampers anyway. And feel doesn't always get you from A to B quicker. Besides i'd have thought lower profile tyres would allow more feel, not less.

[J-P]

peter450 said:

I think you'l find a lot of sports car buyers, buy on what looks good rather than "Handling" and "Feel" etc, which are very subjective terms bandied about an awful lot, but mean rather differant things to a lot of people

Me for example, if a car rides well, has decent body control, and turns in the same direction as the sterring wheel, i rate that as good handling, or good enough for me at any rate.

All this talk of feel through the wheel etc that journos bang on about just goes over my driving head and hands, maybe i'm just a st driver , but one pothole or rough road surface feels much the same as another through the wheel to me

I agree that there are many buyers who are only concerned about how a car looks and don't care about feel. But most enthusiasts are not in this camp. If a car is well set-up, you can tell the difference immediately from both the seat and also the wheel. Try an Elise or a Caterham, if you can't feel how different it is, then it might be worth checking that you're not gripping the wheel too tight as somebody suggested.

[paulmon]

You would have to be the worlds number one fanboi to buy the Subaru over the Toyota purley because the dealer network for Subaru has possibly one of the worst reputations in motordealerdom.

[Athlon]

davepoth said:

Nah, probably the last set of production alloy wheels that weighed less than the equivalent steelies were fitted to a Dolly Sprint.

In the other mammoth GT-86 thread someone posted the weights of MINI alloys and steelies, and only the most expensive alloys weighed less than the steel wheels.

NA MX-5 Minilite looky likeys are one of, if not the lightest alloys around.

[Guibo]

M400 NBL said:

And feel doesn't always get you from A to B quicker. Besides i'd have thought lower profile tyres would allow more feel, not less.

Agreed, more feel doesn't always get you from A to B quicker but I think for many of us, enjoying the journey is more important than how long it takes.
There is some logic to higher profile tires allowing for better feel. For a given tire diameter, the lower profile tire would be wider. This might be less of a problem in cars with variable racks that change their assist as speed rises, but for cars without you'd need more powerful steering boost to negotiate slow speed maneuvers. The greater this steering boost, generally the less feel you have.
The second problem with wider tires is that they tend to tramline more. When you combine this with the first, you can see how the problems are compounding: You don't get much sensation through the wheel, yet you feel the rest of the car inexplicably tugging back and forth where a car on narrower tires might not. We've seen some of this in various reviews of the Corvette, particularly on British B-roads.

[stephen300o]

paulmon said:

You would have to be the worlds number one fanboi to buy the Subaru over the Toyota purley because the dealer network for Subaru has possibly one of the worst reputations in motordealerdom.

Thats a surprise, they always used to do well in the surveys. Finding dealers is difficult and a bit of a trek with most off-piste car manufacturers now though. My local Subaru evaporated last year.

[StormLoaded]

Kong said:

daveknott5 said:

what about this:



Tasty.

That is the first incarnation or the GT86/BRZ which i've actually though 'yum!'

What's been done to it?

some good photoshopping.


now this on the other hand....

[Dave Hedgehog]

StormLoaded said:

some good photoshopping.


now this on the other hand....

errrm

i actually want that (without the bonnet scope)


the scooby looks better in the pics than the toyota imo

[StormLoaded]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i actually want that (without the bonnet scope)

i think there's an aero pack wing thats v.similar.. so you may be in luck (and yes, hopefully that scoop will never appear! )

[pugboy]

There is no doubt in my mind there would be demand for the 'cup'/bargain basement version of this car, with many liking the back to basics no nonesense look with steelies. If they were to put an lsd in that and a boot light and a modest stereo and sold it for 17 grand they would sell fooking loads, and then the 'TT' audience could buy the 'lux' version for 25k. To me it's a no brainer, but then if they are only selling 188 WRX's in a year then clearly they are a littel out of touch with customer demands! Come on Subaru/Toyota, what have you got to lose, you could even put numbered plaques on them for us nauses!

[Efbe]

Mmmm, steelies. much much better than alloys imo. look better, feel better to drive, cheaper, just good all round!

[MC Bodge]

pugboy said:

There is no doubt in my mind there would be demand for the 'cup'/bargain basement version of this car, with many liking the back to basics no nonesense look with steelies. If they were to put an lsd in that and a boot light and a modest stereo and sold it for 17 grand they would sell fooking loads

There would be a following, like a modern "Rallye", but maybe not a massive market amongst the general public.

[sparx99]

I still can't decide which one I want! I prefer the Toyota looks but preferred the concept a lot more tbh!

Also, will the Toyota not have a better interior? I know the selling point is that its a stripped down fun to drive sports car but I still expect a decent interior for £25k.

A lot of comments have been about tuning and modifying. I assume this will void the warranty which means 3 year vs 5 year is not particularly important.

[StormLoaded]

regarding modifying and warranty, with both manufacturers doing upgrades (and body mods) it'll probably come down to your preference to turbo v supercharger. (Toyota developing a supercharger, and Subaru thought to want to go down the turbo route, warranties wont be affected (if you stick with TRD/STI) and all parts it's believed can be fitted directly at the dealership, whether that be on your intial order (if you wait for a fettled with model to arrive) or retrosectively added if you pick up one of the early models to arrive on our shores, unless you want to go elsewhere for your tuning you'd probably be ok and no need to worry about anything.
there's already quite a nice list of parts coming it looks like from both sti and trd.

interior wise, bar some colour changes they look identical to me

[Dave Hedgehog]

StormLoaded said:

regarding modifying and warranty, with both manufacturers doing upgrades (and body mods) it'll probably come down to your preference to turbo v supercharger. (Toyota developing a supercharger, and Subaru thought to want to go down the turbo route, warranties wont be affected (if you stick with TRD/STI) and all parts it's believed can be fitted directly at the dealership, whether that be on your intial order (if you wait for a fettled with model to arrive) or retrosectively added if you pick up one of the early models to arrive on our shores, unless you want to go elsewhere for your tuning you'd probably be ok and no need to worry about anything.
there's already quite a nice list of parts coming it looks like from both sti and trd.

interior wise, bar some colour changes they look identical to me

its as thou its the same car

[richb77]

alolympic said:

Why fit steel wheels onto a car that is being marketed as a lightweight?
they will massively increase unsprung weight, over a set of similar size lightweight alloys, weird.....

Cost and the fact that steelies are light weight. They may not be quite as light as ultra light alloys/magnesium wheels but compared to many stock alloys or blingy tat bought from Halfords steelies are a fraction of the weight.