RE: PDK-only for next Porsche 911 GT3?
Discussion
veryslowone said:
Mr Whippy said:
When I was at school, anyone who drove an automatic, or who got an auto only license was automatically a gay for not being able to drive a manual.
Progress doesn't mean taking away things that are actually enjoyable to do, it's about emphasising the enjoyable attributes of a package of experiences.
Changing gear is enjoyable and involving and not particularly hard, and not even particularly required when you have a ~ 4.0 litre NA engine with oodles of torque all over the place.
Using your logic, automatic steering when introduced, should be embraced, because it allows more speed, the driver can concentrate more on which way they want to go at junctions, or how fast they want to go simply by using a hand throttle, turning the whole experience into that of driving a railway train!
Technology WILL allow that within the next decade I am sure, so should we embrace that for the GT3?
Does it sound alien today to say that?
So why is the gearbox ANY different?
I suppose we may as well automate the throttle too, and braking. Why not jump in your GT3 and say where you want to go, and let the car do it as fast as it can? Progress WILL allow it soon, so should it be embraced?
If changing gear is so much of a hassle for people, then will steering be, braking?
Madness in my view. Cars like these are all about the experience and connection, not being 'easy' per se, but being hard because humans enjoy the challenge.
Dave
Good post, the crux of the matter is when you saidProgress doesn't mean taking away things that are actually enjoyable to do, it's about emphasising the enjoyable attributes of a package of experiences.
Changing gear is enjoyable and involving and not particularly hard, and not even particularly required when you have a ~ 4.0 litre NA engine with oodles of torque all over the place.
Using your logic, automatic steering when introduced, should be embraced, because it allows more speed, the driver can concentrate more on which way they want to go at junctions, or how fast they want to go simply by using a hand throttle, turning the whole experience into that of driving a railway train!
Technology WILL allow that within the next decade I am sure, so should we embrace that for the GT3?
Does it sound alien today to say that?
So why is the gearbox ANY different?
I suppose we may as well automate the throttle too, and braking. Why not jump in your GT3 and say where you want to go, and let the car do it as fast as it can? Progress WILL allow it soon, so should it be embraced?
If changing gear is so much of a hassle for people, then will steering be, braking?
Madness in my view. Cars like these are all about the experience and connection, not being 'easy' per se, but being hard because humans enjoy the challenge.
Dave
"Changing gear is enjoyable "
why is that so enjoyable using you hand to move up and down around your left leg (in the UK) and selecting a paddle shift? Because it takes more skill? Like I said why don't you therefore revert back to having to double declutch everytime, or is that a step too far?
To be brutally honest the gear shift has just been an interuption in "exciting things happening" for the last 120 years, it is a pause. Now man has made this pause shorter and people are still complaining.
Funny enough have you noticed how all the journo's are now coming around to this point of view?
The writing is on the wall, the gearshift is something that reduces acceleration or braking, so should not be encouraged because of the human want.
Why climb a mountian?
Why cook your own food when you can get ready meals?
Why go for a walk when you could drive?
Why bother having sex to have kids when you can just adopt them or have IVF?
Changing gear is fun because it's a challenge, and humans enjoy challenging experiences. It allows them to appreciate improving skills with time, so they can look back and say, yes, I am better. Maybe it's a bit of an adrenaline rush from getting a series of H&T's into a corner perfect!
Double clutching is a valid point, it would be a pain, that is why it was engineered away. But at the time automatic gearboxes were available, but not everyone rushed to them... why has it taken three or four decades for automatic gearboxes to become vogue all of a sudden.
Yes the newer ones are 'technically' better, but if the whole idea of changing gears was so horrible an idea all along, then why did it take so long for them to be able to supersede manuals?
The only reason automatics even exist today is the CO2 test cycle allows them to be better, so people now see them as something to save them money, wheras old automatics didn't. I think beyond that people don't care, as they stuck with manuals for years with viable and perfectly acceptable automatic gearboxes available!
Dave
Polarbert said:
I thought it started on the Porsche rally cars? Or am I mistaken.
A quick google points to the original Porsche developed PDK system being installed in Group C (956/962) in 1983 and the S1 Audi Sport Quattro some time from 1985. I'll leave it for someone else to dig out anything more specific though.Not that it is scientific but I took a couple of track days at the Autódromo Internacional do Algarve last summer using, three different tools for comparison.
If anyone is familiar with the circuit it is technical with many tight bends and changes in gradient. Cars were 911 Carrera S (Manual), BMW M3 DCT and 911 GT3 (Manual) all great and a fun time had all round (thanks to Hugo and his team).
Carrera S = very fun and challenging in left hand drive
M3 = fun (but a little dull at times due to paddles and a lack of involvement)
GT3 = very very very very very fun
As has been reported multiple times the manual GT3 was awesome. It made me smile like a cheshire cat for 2 days and bore my girlfriend silly with how much fun it was.
This was because you are involved with the feeling of the car beneath you as you match your inputs to get the car to perform.
Just a thought but the GT3 nearly made me wee myself with excitement!
Hope Porsche offer both and the manual does not die.
If anyone is familiar with the circuit it is technical with many tight bends and changes in gradient. Cars were 911 Carrera S (Manual), BMW M3 DCT and 911 GT3 (Manual) all great and a fun time had all round (thanks to Hugo and his team).
Carrera S = very fun and challenging in left hand drive
M3 = fun (but a little dull at times due to paddles and a lack of involvement)
GT3 = very very very very very fun
As has been reported multiple times the manual GT3 was awesome. It made me smile like a cheshire cat for 2 days and bore my girlfriend silly with how much fun it was.
This was because you are involved with the feeling of the car beneath you as you match your inputs to get the car to perform.
Just a thought but the GT3 nearly made me wee myself with excitement!
Hope Porsche offer both and the manual does not die.
Richard330s said:
Not that it is scientific but I took a couple of track days at the Autódromo Internacional do Algarve last summer using, three different tools for comparison.
If anyone is familiar with the circuit it is technical with many tight bends and changes in gradient. Cars were 911 Carrera S (Manual), BMW M3 DCT and 911 GT3 (Manual) all great and a fun time had all round (thanks to Hugo and his team).
Carrera S = very fun and challenging in left hand drive
M3 = fun (but a little dull at times due to paddles and a lack of involvement)
GT3 = very very very very very fun
As has been reported multiple times the manual GT3 was awesome. It made me smile like a cheshire cat for 2 days and bore my girlfriend silly with how much fun it was.
This was because you are involved with the feeling of the car beneath you as you match your inputs to get the car to perform.
Just a thought but the GT3 nearly made me wee myself with excitement!
Hope Porsche offer both and the manual does not die.
Thanks for this.If anyone is familiar with the circuit it is technical with many tight bends and changes in gradient. Cars were 911 Carrera S (Manual), BMW M3 DCT and 911 GT3 (Manual) all great and a fun time had all round (thanks to Hugo and his team).
Carrera S = very fun and challenging in left hand drive
M3 = fun (but a little dull at times due to paddles and a lack of involvement)
GT3 = very very very very very fun
As has been reported multiple times the manual GT3 was awesome. It made me smile like a cheshire cat for 2 days and bore my girlfriend silly with how much fun it was.
This was because you are involved with the feeling of the car beneath you as you match your inputs to get the car to perform.
Just a thought but the GT3 nearly made me wee myself with excitement!
Hope Porsche offer both and the manual does not die.
In 11 pages of posts on this thread, not one person has complained that a GT3 Cup car with Sequential box is boring / less involved / less exciting in comparison to a GT3 with Manual box.
Case closed.
Mr Whippy said:
The only reason automatics even exist today is the CO2 test cycle allows them to be better, so people now see them as something to save them money, wheras old automatics didn't. I think beyond that people don't care, as they stuck with manuals for years with viable and perfectly acceptable automatic gearboxes available!
Dave
This is complete tosh! You think Americans won't buy anything other than automatics because it means lower CO2 emissions? Dave
DiscoColin said:
Polarbert said:
I thought it started on the Porsche rally cars? Or am I mistaken.
A quick google points to the original Porsche developed PDK system being installed in Group C (956/962) in 1983 and the S1 Audi Sport Quattro some time from 1985. I'll leave it for someone else to dig out anything more specific though.A GT3 with a gearbox that has its roots in the 956 sounds about as special as GT3 with an engine block that can trace its way back to the same car...
SonnyM said:
Thanks for this.
In 11 pages of posts on this thread, not one person has complained that a GT3 Cup car with Sequential box is boring / less involved / less exciting in comparison to a GT3 with Manual box.
Case closed.
In 11 pages of posts on this thread, not one person has complained that a GT3 Cup car with Sequential box is boring / less involved / less exciting in comparison to a GT3 with Manual box.
Case closed.
Yeah, right, now there's logic for you...
How many GT3 Cup cars are there?
How many folk have driven them?
Are they driven on the road? You know, like in traffic?
How many road cars have a fully sequential box exactly that same as the GT3 Cup Car? What do folk think of those that do?
Case closed? Pah.
Raitzi said:
Now they just have to engine in front of rear axle to create a perfect car 
They did that ages ago. All the need to do is stick the big engines into it and lavish the sort of attention the GT3 gets when it comes to optimising the platform for racing...SonnyM said:
In 11 pages of posts on this thread, not one person has complained that a GT3 Cup car with Sequential box is boring / less involved / less exciting in comparison to a GT3 with Manual box.
Case closed.
A Cup car's sequential is totally unsuited to road use and about a million miles away from a PDK box.Case closed.
Edited by juansolo on Thursday 16th February 08:53
Dr JonboyG said:
Mr Whippy said:
The only reason automatics even exist today is the CO2 test cycle allows them to be better, so people now see them as something to save them money, wheras old automatics didn't. I think beyond that people don't care, as they stuck with manuals for years with viable and perfectly acceptable automatic gearboxes available!
Dave
This is complete tosh! You think Americans won't buy anything other than automatics because it means lower CO2 emissions? Dave
People have all rushed to them in droves today, despite avoiding them in the UK in the past, because they now save them money.
15 years ago the automatic was a luxury, it cost more to buy and cost more to run, and was probably less reliable.
Today that isn't the same so people buy the automatics for their lower CO2/running costs (tax etc)...
Basically, automatics have always been 'good' if you wanted an automatic. SMG type stuff was very good a decade ago... so why are Porsche only just going to that type of box?
It's purely down to price of developing one box vs two for Porsche. They are greedy and profit is king.
Good for them, but the residuals on this GT3 will be the worst on any GT3 product yet I am sure. Buyers beware, horrible residuals lurk within!
Dave
kambites said:
No-one is denying that paddle shifts are faster, so building a racing car without one if it's allowed would be lunacy.
I guess the decision will depend (to some extent) on how much Porsche want to maintain the tie between their race cars and their road cars. I don't believe that comparing peoples impressions of the Turbo S with the GT3 is a sensible approach - they're quite different cars for quite different drivers.kambites said:
Racing cars are not designed to be fun, though.
I guess that rather depends on what level of racing you're talking about. Certainly the RSR (at approach 5 million Euros) is a serious beast.DiscoColin said:
Polarbert said:
I thought it started on the Porsche rally cars? Or am I mistaken.
A quick google points to the original Porsche developed PDK system being installed in Group C (956/962) in 1983 and the S1 Audi Sport Quattro some time from 1985. I'll leave it for someone else to dig out anything more specific though. Cool.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff