RE: New Caterham road car - details
Discussion
DJRC said:
Take 1 SV, put a coupe body on it, functioning doors, windows that go and down and a boot that opens.
Same engines, weight about 50kg more than the equivalent 7. Same price as 7, maybe 1000 quid more.
Job jobbed. Wtf Caterham didnt do this 20yrs ago, f
k knows.
An R500 coupe? Hell yes. Nothing else touches them to 100mph already, even with the aeros of a brick (yes, yes Atoms, etc. but they arent really normal motors), so give it a decent aero body and you are looking at 150+ speed and bugger all touching it.
For £40k or whatever an R500 costs.
Exactly what I have been thinking since my mate bought Nearn's CSR. Same engines, weight about 50kg more than the equivalent 7. Same price as 7, maybe 1000 quid more.
Job jobbed. Wtf Caterham didnt do this 20yrs ago, f
k knows.An R500 coupe? Hell yes. Nothing else touches them to 100mph already, even with the aeros of a brick (yes, yes Atoms, etc. but they arent really normal motors), so give it a decent aero body and you are looking at 150+ speed and bugger all touching it.
For £40k or whatever an R500 costs.
It's a brilliant bit of kit and the drive on normal roads is exceptional.
But I keep looking at it and thinking just how difficult is it to bond a floor pan in to act as robust out riggers and bolt a funky hard top shell onto it.
I've not understood why they haven't been offering a whole range of body styles on the same package to cater for people who want the driving experience but not the beard and ale body.
They could keep churning out different shells to their hearts content and even update existing cars etc.
Issues as i see them:
1) £35 to £40K. When you consider that a decently spec'd 7 is already close to those figures as a factory build, and that had all its development and tooling costs paid off about 1000 years ago, how can a completely new car, which will cost more to develop (due to the creature comforts etc) cost the same?
2) Competition. The 7 has no competition because of what it is. As soon as you move away from this minimialist architecture then you run slap bang into some major players in that price bracket
3) CD player? Does he mean no audio system what so ever? Most people will want just an Ipod connection these days......
4) Monocoque chassis that isn't CF. Well thats an ally one then isn't it? (no way they could afford to tool up for steel panels, unlikely they are going to "do a Morgan" and make it out of wood, and doubtfull they would be brave enough to go for a full composite load bearing structure (Fibreglass etc)
Looking at the market for sports cars it's pretty well sewn up.
Scooby/toyota BR15 thingy and Mazda Mx5 at low OEM end
Lots of cheaper kit cars at low DIY end
Boxster/370z/Z4 in the middle for OEM's
Elise/Exige for more basic middle ground
911 top middle OEM
Radical top middle track
R8/V8V etc top OEM
BARC Mono etc top track
lots of super/hyper cars above this in both inhabitable and raw track stylee flavours.....
The only gap i can see is for an affordable (£25k max) "commuter" sports car, with excellent fuel economy. (maybe even electric etc)?
1) £35 to £40K. When you consider that a decently spec'd 7 is already close to those figures as a factory build, and that had all its development and tooling costs paid off about 1000 years ago, how can a completely new car, which will cost more to develop (due to the creature comforts etc) cost the same?
2) Competition. The 7 has no competition because of what it is. As soon as you move away from this minimialist architecture then you run slap bang into some major players in that price bracket
3) CD player? Does he mean no audio system what so ever? Most people will want just an Ipod connection these days......
4) Monocoque chassis that isn't CF. Well thats an ally one then isn't it? (no way they could afford to tool up for steel panels, unlikely they are going to "do a Morgan" and make it out of wood, and doubtfull they would be brave enough to go for a full composite load bearing structure (Fibreglass etc)
Looking at the market for sports cars it's pretty well sewn up.
Scooby/toyota BR15 thingy and Mazda Mx5 at low OEM end
Lots of cheaper kit cars at low DIY end
Boxster/370z/Z4 in the middle for OEM's
Elise/Exige for more basic middle ground
911 top middle OEM
Radical top middle track
R8/V8V etc top OEM
BARC Mono etc top track
lots of super/hyper cars above this in both inhabitable and raw track stylee flavours.....
The only gap i can see is for an affordable (£25k max) "commuter" sports car, with excellent fuel economy. (maybe even electric etc)?
Max_Torque said:
4) Monocoque chassis that isn't CF. Well thats an ally one then isn't it? (no way they could afford to tool up for steel panels, unlikely they are going to "do a Morgan" and make it out of wood, and doubtfull they would be brave enough to go for a full composite load bearing structure (Fibreglass etc)
Not GRP? That's a mono that impresses me.DonkeyApple said:
DJRC said:
Take 1 SV, put a coupe body on it, functioning doors, windows that go and down and a boot that opens.
Same engines, weight about 50kg more than the equivalent 7. Same price as 7, maybe 1000 quid more.
Job jobbed. Wtf Caterham didnt do this 20yrs ago, fk knows.
An R500 coupe? Hell yes. Nothing else touches them to 100mph already, even with the aeros of a brick (yes, yes Atoms, etc. but they arent really normal motors), so give it a decent aero body and you are looking at 150+ speed and bugger all touching it.
For £40k or whatever an R500 costs.
Exactly what I have been thinking since my mate bought Nearn's CSR. Same engines, weight about 50kg more than the equivalent 7. Same price as 7, maybe 1000 quid more.
Job jobbed. Wtf Caterham didnt do this 20yrs ago, f
k knows.An R500 coupe? Hell yes. Nothing else touches them to 100mph already, even with the aeros of a brick (yes, yes Atoms, etc. but they arent really normal motors), so give it a decent aero body and you are looking at 150+ speed and bugger all touching it.
For £40k or whatever an R500 costs.
It's a brilliant bit of kit and the drive on normal roads is exceptional.
But I keep looking at it and thinking just how difficult is it to bond a floor pan in to act as robust out riggers and bolt a funky hard top shell onto it.
I've not understood why they haven't been offering a whole range of body styles on the same package to cater for people who want the driving experience but not the beard and ale body.
They could keep churning out different shells to their hearts content and even update existing cars etc.
DJRC said:
But DA, read the rest of this thread. Far from it being apparently blindingy obvious, it seems we are in a minority of 2.
But people just don't understand the power that we have. We just need to put a deposit down and the project will die.
Not sure why they haven't tried different skins to try and tap into adjacent markets. Most of the people I know my age think they are brilliant cars and would have one in the garage but don't like the looks.
DonkeyApple said:
But people just don't understand the power that we have.
We just need to put a deposit down and the project will die.
Not sure why they haven't tried different skins to try and tap into adjacent markets. Most of the people I know my age think they are brilliant cars and would have one in the garage but don't like the looks.
I'm not massively convinced that packaging a coupe body on even an SV fatboy chassis would be that easy. We just need to put a deposit down and the project will die.
Not sure why they haven't tried different skins to try and tap into adjacent markets. Most of the people I know my age think they are brilliant cars and would have one in the garage but don't like the looks.
Getting in and out would be a 'mare and the boot and interior space poor for what it would then be. A few people have cobbled hard tops on 7s and I'm not sure they're that successful.
An SV+(+) chassis maybe. Which might not be that hard to do (they did it to the S3 chassis after all). But as someone else has said, don't underestimate how much it would cost to do something like this.
I hope they've done their market research right. Timing it with the F1 branding is a good move. But there's so much established metal out there now that it would have to be exceedingly good, and exceedingly good looking to succeed (IMO).
DonkeyApple said:
DJRC said:
But DA, read the rest of this thread. Far from it being apparently blindingy obvious, it seems we are in a minority of 2.
But people just don't understand the power that we have. We just need to put a deposit down and the project will die.
Not sure why they haven't tried different skins to try and tap into adjacent markets. Most of the people I know my age think they are brilliant cars and would have one in the garage but don't like the looks.
Hmm, i wonder if I try it on Micras, production of the hateful things might stop?
VladD said:
So is it basically a new Lotus Elite?
Hope so.Or a new Elan, or a new MX-5 NA (as others have said) or... and here's an idea, a new Suzuki Cappuccino. Remember that? 64hp 3-cylinder 660cc turbo pulling just 725kgs around? Ford's new blown 1.0 litre 3-pot is good for 180hp apparently...
DonkeyApple said:
DJRC said:
But DA, read the rest of this thread. Far from it being apparently blindingy obvious, it seems we are in a minority of 2.
But people just don't understand the power that we have. We just need to put a deposit down and the project will die.
Not sure why they haven't tried different skins to try and tap into adjacent markets. Most of the people I know my age think they are brilliant cars and would have one in the garage but don't like the looks.
I'm a bit disappointed that they're setting the target weight at under 1000kg rather than beneath 600kg or even 500kg.
They appear to have lost sight of Colin Chapman's philosophy that made the Seven so successful.
With the modern materials available to them this should be easily achievable.
IMHO it would be far better to produce a partner for the Seven but aimed at the less traditionally minded younger market.
At the heavier weight there is too much competition.
They appear to have lost sight of Colin Chapman's philosophy that made the Seven so successful.
With the modern materials available to them this should be easily achievable.
IMHO it would be far better to produce a partner for the Seven but aimed at the less traditionally minded younger market.
At the heavier weight there is too much competition.
Miura Anjin said:
Hope so.
Or a new Elan, or a new MX-5 NA (as others have said) or... and here's an idea, a new Suzuki Cappuccino. Remember that? 64hp 3-cylinder 660cc turbo pulling just 725kgs around? Ford's new blown 1.0 litre 3-pot is good for 180hp apparently...
It will need to be more than either the MX-5 or the Cappuccino. Both great cars, but a little soft for Caterham.Or a new Elan, or a new MX-5 NA (as others have said) or... and here's an idea, a new Suzuki Cappuccino. Remember that? 64hp 3-cylinder 660cc turbo pulling just 725kgs around? Ford's new blown 1.0 litre 3-pot is good for 180hp apparently...
I would hope for a coupe the size of the current MX-5 (not easy to make it smaller with current legislation). But it should be lighter, loosing the creature comforts.
I agree that this should take the place left vacant by the Elise when it moves into Cayman-ish territory.
<Edited because I'm an idiot.>
Edited by SpudLink on Friday 17th February 08:49
RegMolehusband said:
I'm a bit disappointed that they're setting the target weight at under 1000kg rather than beneath 600kg or even 500kg.
They appear to have lost sight of Colin Chapman's philosophy that made the Seven so successful.
With the modern materials available to them this should be easily achievable.
IMHO it would be far better to produce a partner for the Seven but aimed at the less traditionally minded younger market.
At the heavier weight there is too much competition.
But they said they want to meet current and future requirements for type approval in various markets so they don't have to re-engineer. An R500 with basically nothing in it can weight just under 500kg, there is no chance in hell you could make a coupe that can pass any form of crash testing at that weight. Actually maybe I am wrong, you could, but it would cost £200,000+ for the 4-cylinder version as the materials would be so expensive! They appear to have lost sight of Colin Chapman's philosophy that made the Seven so successful.
With the modern materials available to them this should be easily achievable.
IMHO it would be far better to produce a partner for the Seven but aimed at the less traditionally minded younger market.
At the heavier weight there is too much competition.
Caterham want a car they can sell worldwide and the seven is increasingly a struggle in many markets due to regulations.
Got to agree with a few of the other posters,
but Ali was quick to point out “above £50,000 people’s expectations ramp up quickly so we want to keep it under that mark.”
My expectations increase quickly over £25k tbh, anyhting like £40k+ and you will fall straight into the Evora trap, and never be seen again.
but Ali was quick to point out “above £50,000 people’s expectations ramp up quickly so we want to keep it under that mark.”
My expectations increase quickly over £25k tbh, anyhting like £40k+ and you will fall straight into the Evora trap, and never be seen again.
I think there is a problem for all car markers that many customer's expectations on price haven't moved with the times. I have lost count of the number of times people have said something about a MK1 Elise type car, but around £20k. Thing is, that normal hatchbacks come in at that price with a few options and that is what the Elise cost at launch. Add a few years compound inflation and the price now would be £30k ish anyway.
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