RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5

[E65Ross]

RoverP6B said:

It's not just the noise. It's the forced induction, the excessive power, excessive weight, excessive tyre width, the bloody dual-clutch gearbox... 150-200bhp less (depending on its real-world power output), minus the turbochargers and a 500kg diet would make it a vastly better car. AND WHY WON'T THEY BUILD A TOURING?!?!?!?!!!!!

Right, so how do you propose bmw shed 500kgs from a luxury saloon car? The gearbox is your preference but NOT the preference of the market for these buyers. Even in the M3 the DCT box totally outsold manual boxes.

They won't build a touring because after people like you said they should.... They did build a touring, and it was a complete sales flop.

Excessive weight? Excessive for what? A racing car, yes. A VERY comfortable and spacious 5 seater saloon car with outstanding safety and a hell of a lot of creature comforts and a very powerful engine? Not so sure.

They've built the car you've described, it'd called an E90 M3. Which clearly shows you totally miss the point of what an M5 is.

Oh - with too wide tyres.... Too wide for what? You're aware tyre width isn't just for grip but also in terms of mm width per kg of car... Right?

[Devil2575]

-Z- said:

What does "electronically generated" mean though? It could still mean a recording.

No it couldn't. Electronically generated is competely different from recorded.

[Devil2575]

AreOut said:

it wouldn't stop me from driving one but would from owning, the same way I'd do a great looking girl with the voice of Bruce Buffer but couldn't stand living with her

[goldblum]

I'm wondering how the speakers actually reproduce music accurately when they're doing the fake turbos/revs bit. I presume you can switch the 'engine noise' off and lower a window.

[-Z-]

goldblum said:

I'm wondering how the speakers actually reproduce music accurately when they're doing the fake turbos/revs bit. I presume you can switch the 'engine noise' off and lower a window.

You cant tell that anything is coming from the speakers. If I had to guess I would say that possibly it adds a bit of bass? Something subtle that you feel rather than hear.

[Krikkit]

goldblum said:

I'm wondering how the speakers actually reproduce music accurately when they're doing the fake turbos/revs bit. I presume you can switch the 'engine noise' off and lower a window.

Simple enough to do, a speaker than can produce decent music can easily cope with a bit of engine noise overlaid onto the music. It's all the same.

[goldblum]

Krikkit said:

goldblum said:

I'm wondering how the speakers actually reproduce music accurately when they're doing the fake turbos/revs bit. I presume you can switch the 'engine noise' off and lower a window.

Simple enough to do, a speaker than can produce decent music can easily cope with a bit of engine noise overlaid onto the music. It's all the same.

My car's V8 sounds fantastic, but if I don't want the noise intruding into the cabin when I'm pushing on I shut the window. Presumably the fake engine noise can be overriden by music anyway, but can you switch it off completely?

[E65Ross]

goldblum said:

Krikkit said:

goldblum said:

I'm wondering how the speakers actually reproduce music accurately when they're doing the fake turbos/revs bit. I presume you can switch the 'engine noise' off and lower a window.

Simple enough to do, a speaker than can produce decent music can easily cope with a bit of engine noise overlaid onto the music. It's all the same.

My car's V8 sounds fantastic, but if I don't want the noise intruding into the cabin when I'm pushing on I shut the window. Presumably the fake engine noise can be overriden by music anyway, but can you switch it off completely?

My only experience is with the VERY expensive Bang and Olufsen upgraded stereo but you CANNOT tell it comes through the speakers. Let me repeat that for any naysayers. You CANNOT tell it comes through the speakers.

Secondly, the stereo copes just fine whether pushing on the loud pedal or not, the music doesn't change at all.

Thirdly, the noise is no more intrusive than when you normally press the loud pedal in an M car and if you want to hear it more, you open the window and you can hear the exhaust.

Honestly, you really can't tell the noise comes through the speakers at all.

I've spent a couple of hundred miles in an M6 and driven it for approx 100miles total.

Not sure why you'd want to turn it off though? It sounds decent enough (not great but nice enough) and isn't intrusive as you have sort of suggested.

[franki68]

RoverP6B said:

It's annoying but easily ignored. Not so fake engine noise.

Re acceleration - drag-racing is an imprecise science when you're using a poor surface such as Bruntingthorpe, which was built over fifty years ago for Avro Vulcans and Handley Page Victors. There has also been a lot of suggestion that the M5/M6 engine develops significantly more power than the book figures - I've heard that some have been dyno'd at closer to 610bhp...

Motor trend did a m5 vs e6s 4matic test ,their performance results suggested both cars produced more than stated outputsn (e63 hit 60 in 3.4 I think and the 1/4 mile in 11.6 secs) so they dyno'd them,the m5 was putting out what it was supposed to ,the e63s was putting out 636bhp-670bhp (540bhp at the wheels)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd...

[goldblum]

E65Ross said:

Not sure why you'd want to turn it off though? It sounds decent enough (not great but nice enough) and isn't intrusive as you have sort of suggested.

Time and place for everything. Sometimes I just want quiet.

[RenesisEvo]

E65Ross said:

My only experience is with the VERY expensive Bang and Olufsen upgraded stereo but you CANNOT tell it comes through the speakers. Let me repeat that for any naysayers. You CANNOT tell it comes through the speakers.
...
Thirdly, the noise is no more intrusive than when you normally press the loud pedal in an M car and if you want to hear it more, you open the window and you can hear the exhaust.

This matches my experience of an M6 (Comp pack). I did find the sound just a little flat, but only with the windows up; windows down it was still quite something. But the M6 owner admitted he'd miss the 'real' V8 noise of the car I bought off him - an E39 M5. Maybe it's because I can't afford one, but I have no desire for an E60 or F10 M5. An M6 GC maybe in that fantasy world where I have the money, because I love the interior and the exterior looks. The drivetrain is very effective, yes, but doesn't quite stir my soul in the same way the S62 does.

[E65Ross]

goldblum said:

E65Ross said:

Not sure why you'd want to turn it off though? It sounds decent enough (not great but nice enough) and isn't intrusive as you have sort of suggested.

Time and place for everything. Sometimes I just want quiet.

And how do you manage this with your current V8,and how do you think this would be any different to any other car?

Genuinely curious because, as I've already said, it's not really any different to any other car. Don't put your foot down, it's nice a difference quiet. Put your foot down, it gets louder. So when you ask that question as if you think this car would be different to another seems strange considering what I've already told you from my 1st hand experience.

Thanks.

[goldblum]

E65Ross said:

goldblum said:

E65Ross said:

Not sure why you'd want to turn it off though? It sounds decent enough (not great but nice enough) and isn't intrusive as you have sort of suggested.

Time and place for everything. Sometimes I just want quiet.

And how do you manage this with your current V8,and how do you think this would be any different to any other car?

Same engine makes more cabin noise in the C63 than the E63. That's why I bought the quieter E. It's there if you want it, but it's not intrusive or droney. At 1.5k revs and 80mph on the motorway it's almost silent.

[E65Ross]

goldblum said:

E65Ross said:

goldblum said:

E65Ross said:

Not sure why you'd want to turn it off though? It sounds decent enough (not great but nice enough) and isn't intrusive as you have sort of suggested.

Time and place for everything. Sometimes I just want quiet.

And how do you manage this with your current V8,and how do you think this would be any different to any other car?

Same engine makes more cabin noise in the C63 than the E63. That's why I bought the quieter E. It's there if you want it, but it's not intrusive or droney. At 1.5k revs and 80mph on the motorway it's almost silent.

Having been in an E63 AMG (estate) I can confirm that on the motorway at slow or high speeds there is no engine noise when cruising, even north of 100. It's not geared that tall (didn't realise the E63 was either) but it does around 2750rpm at 100 which is more than tall enough.

[RoverP6B]

E65Ross said:

How do you propose BMW shed 500kg from a luxury saloon? The gearbox is your preference but NOT the preference of the market for these buyers. Even in the M3 the DCT totally outsold manual boxes. They won't build a touring because after people like you said they should. They did build a touring, and it was a complete sales flop. Excessive weight? For what? A racing car, yes. A VERY comfortable and spacious 5 seater saloon car with outstanding safety and a hell of a lot of creature comforts and a very powerful engine? Not so sure. They've built the car you've described, it'd called an E90 M3. Which clearly shows you totally miss the point of what an M5 is. Oh - with too wide tyres... Too wide for what? You're aware tyre width isn't just for grip but also in terms of mm width per kg of car... Right?

The car needs to be about 18 inches shorter in length and a couple of inches narrower than it is, for starters. Swap the electric heated leather front seats for unheated manual cloth-trimmed buckets in c/f shells. Ordinary cloth will suffice for the rear. The M3 DCT outsold the manual because (a) the manual wasn't that good and (b) the people who buy a 1700kg V8 saloon nowadays are lazy. Strip the turbos off the engine, you might be able to make the engine itself lighter with thinner walls. Get rid of iDrive, get rid of the e-Brake, get rid of the DCT. Touring - the M5 Touring seemed to sell well enough, I certainly saw far more of them than the saloon - and, as I said, the Audi and Merc wagons, with torquey engines which perhaps suit the estate better than a stroked-out F1 motor with a SMG, mostly outsell the saloons (in Audi's case so much so that they don't even bother making saloon versions any more). Smaller wheels, smaller brakes, less unsprung weight, narrower tyres, less grip - all of these would make the M5 a better car. It has too much power, too much weight and too much grip. The E39 M5 was, truth be told, too heavy, but it was really the E90 M3 that was its successor (and that was much too heavy for an M3, though at least it was lighter than the E39) - and the F10 is an unforgivable lard-arse.

[RoverP6B]

franki68 said:

The e63s was putting out 636bhp-670bhp (540bhp at the wheels)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY5oSik1eHs

I presume that's the new twin-turbo motor, not the 6.2 N/A. Mightily impressive either way, even more so if it's the latter.

I notice they say the M5 (598bhp at the crank - so about what I'd heard before - or 564 if it's more efficient) shuts down if the rears are spinning and the fronts aren't - so I take it that means no childish smokey burnouts as the nanny will cut in. The Vauxhall VXR8 can rest easy...

Edited by RoverP6B on Wednesday 5th February 16:27

[NomduJour]

goldblum said:

Presumably the fake engine noise can be overriden by music anyway, but can you switch it off completely?

As above, you can't unless you pull the fuse for the amp (thereby losing the radio etc.) or have the right diagnostic equipment.

Whether it sounds good or not, the principle is intrinsically awful. It's about as contrary to what an M GmbH-developed car should be about as is possible.

[Krikkit]

RoverP6B said:

The car needs to be about 18 inches shorter in length and a couple of inches narrower than it is, for starters. Swap the electric heated leather front seats for unheated manual cloth-trimmed buckets in c/f shells. Ordinary cloth will suffice for the rear. The M3 DCT outsold the manual because (a) the manual wasn't that good and (b) the people who buy a 1700kg V8 saloon nowadays are lazy. Strip the turbos off the engine, you might be able to make the engine itself lighter with thinner walls. Get rid of iDrive, get rid of the e-Brake, get rid of the DCT. Touring - the M5 Touring seemed to sell well enough, I certainly saw far more of them than the saloon - and, as I said, the Audi and Merc wagons, with torquey engines which perhaps suit the estate better than a stroked-out F1 motor with a SMG, mostly outsell the saloons (in Audi's case so much so that they don't even bother making saloon versions any more). Smaller wheels, smaller brakes, less unsprung weight, narrower tyres, less grip - all of these would make the M5 a better car. It has too much power, too much weight and too much grip. The E39 M5 was, truth be told, too heavy, but it was really the E90 M3 that was its successor (and that was much too heavy for an M3, though at least it was lighter than the E39) - and the F10 is an unforgivable lard-arse.

Who's going to spend £60-80k on a super saloon in the 21st century which has cloth seats, no decent infotainment, no auto box and tiny wheels? No-one except a die-hard PH'er, that's who. Even then I'd be surprised if even the PH massive would buy it. Too compromised by having rear seats etc to be hardcore enough, but not comfortable and luxurious enough to use daily.

It sounds like a great car, but we represent a tiny %age of the car-buying public, let alone the ones buying an M5.

[E65Ross]

RoverP6B said:

The car needs to be about 18 inches shorter in length and a couple of inches narrower than it is, for starters. Swap the electric heated leather front seats for unheated manual cloth-trimmed buckets in c/f shells. Ordinary cloth will suffice for the rear. The M3 DCT outsold the manual because (a) the manual wasn't that good and (b) the people who buy a 1700kg V8 saloon nowadays are lazy. Strip the turbos off the engine, you might be able to make the engine itself lighter with thinner walls. Get rid of iDrive, get rid of the e-Brake, get rid of the DCT. Touring - the M5 Touring seemed to sell well enough, I certainly saw far more of them than the saloon - and, as I said, the Audi and Merc wagons, with torquey engines which perhaps suit the estate better than a stroked-out F1 motor with a SMG, mostly outsell the saloons (in Audi's case so much so that they don't even bother making saloon versions any more). Smaller wheels, smaller brakes, less unsprung weight, narrower tyres, less grip - all of these would make the M5 a better car. It has too much power, too much weight and too much grip. The E39 M5 was, truth be told, too heavy, but it was really the E90 M3 that was its successor (and that was much too heavy for an M3, though at least it was lighter than the E39) - and the F10 is an unforgivable lard-arse.

I'm giving up. There's no reasoning with you. You clearly think the M5 is a road racer not a Super saloon. 18 inches shorter? Yeah, that'll make it a great family saloon where it's a complete squeeze!

You don't understand what the M5 is about in the slightest.

[E65Ross]

RoverP6B said:

I presume that's the new twin-turbo motor, not the 6.2 N/A. Mightily impressive either way, even more so if it's the latter.

I notice they say the M5 (598bhp at the crank - so about what I'd heard before - or 564 if it's more efficient) shuts down if the rears are spinning and the fronts aren't - so I take it that means no childish smokey burnouts as the nanny will cut in. The Vauxhall VXR8 can rest easy...

Edited by RoverP6B on Wednesday 5th February 16:27

You're just trolling now. You can pull power slides and do burn outs in an M5. Not seen Harris's reviews?