RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5
Discussion
Amirhussain said:
'I suggest if you can't post anything with a modicum of common sense, you don't post at all.' 
You should be saying that to your bumchum Rover
'No need for your completely out of order comments.'
And he doesn't have a point, the guys a lost plot, goes on like his some kind of driving god 'demanding' hardcore stripped out racers
As for "thinking of the children", think it is more likely to be you who is actually the child. Not sure you are old enough to drive, let alone being in a position to be able to add any experience to this thread. Other than hurling insults of course, the big man that you are. You should be saying that to your bumchum Rover'No need for your completely out of order comments.'
And he doesn't have a point, the guys a lost plot, goes on like his some kind of driving god 'demanding' hardcore stripped out racers
As for "driving god", I am not sure you really understand what it means and at least the guy can actually drive. Some of us like our road racers and obviously being the driving god that I am, it is something that people like you do not and never will understand.
This used to be a great place for actual car people but PH has disappointingly gone downhill. Anyway, I have had enough of the pretty pointless discussion, particularly with the likes of you. 29 pages of mainly a load of misinformed rubbish. I am out.
Amirhussain said:
I give up, no point trying talk to people who are just lost causes.
Indeed. There is a market for a completely stripped out 5 seater saloon car which is unrefined and is basically a lotus exige but bigger with 5 seats. It's just that market is so, so small that it's not a viable option for manufacturing. Secondly, because numbers would be so small, the price would be high. Meaning even those who want one would likely have to spend more than what they'd want to.
It's almost as if some on ph think they know the market better than the leading manufacturers around the world.
E65Ross said:
RoverP6B said:
When did electric seat adjustment arrive in M cars, anyway? Pretty sure it wasn't in the E28 or E30.
Pretty sure it was in the E28 I've been in. Edited by RoverP6B on Thursday 6th February 17:16
Electric seats and headrests!
Also worth watching to remind oneself re the brief for this car:
Epic performance, supreme comfort. This rose tinted (nostalgic?) view of some stripped out race machine simply isn't true.
Edited by g3org3y on Friday 7th February 15:42
t. Well after driving one last weekend I must say I am smitten . Driven on a combination of roads this car feels like it easily copes with all that was flung at it, mind you it did have the 19" wheels so the 20" wheels may be a bit worse.
cruising it felt nice and relaxed but when called upon the grunt was there in bucket loads as was the glorious noise, albeit with the noise being piped through the speakers, box was nice and smooth but with all the different driver configs it could take a while to get fully dialed in.
I love the fact that it just slips into the crowd and would look awesome on my drive, but I will agree with the other comments on dealer service, it truly is shocking
cruising it felt nice and relaxed but when called upon the grunt was there in bucket loads as was the glorious noise, albeit with the noise being piped through the speakers, box was nice and smooth but with all the different driver configs it could take a while to get fully dialed in.
I love the fact that it just slips into the crowd and would look awesome on my drive, but I will agree with the other comments on dealer service, it truly is shocking
As a previous E39 M5 owner I have been reading these comments with interest. I sold me E39 M5 in early July, and I have been a bit lost ever since. I owned it for 7 years and I think I did it justice for suitable use over those years.
I live in the north east of Scotland and we are lucky enough to have quite roads in the mountains within 30mins of where I live, I used the car as a daily commuter all year (winter tyres as required) and I have had a few trips to the continent in it. Most notable highlights were travelling to le mans in the car with a convoy with a scout car sent ahead to look for police then radio'ing back if the coast was clear for a stretching of the cars legs. A round trip to the Nurburgring where the car clocked over 150 miles around the Nordschleife both in the dry and also in the wet. On the way the car reached its limited top speed on the Autobahn's 4 up at least 5 times. (167mph indicated / 163mph on the sat nav before the limiter was hit. 155mph restrictor didn't seem to be very accurate...). I also had a great run chasing a friend on an Aprilla V twin motorbike on the iconic B500 in the black forest. The engine note seemed to complement the M5 car perfectly. I have taken the car around some of the best roads in Scotland and in Wales over the years and learnt how to drift around secluded roundabouts in it when there are no prying eyes.
Its been a very reliable motor over the 60,000 miles I used it only ever requiring consumables, nothing ever went wrong with it mechanically. It even had its original clutch when I sold it at 115,000 miles! The only changes I made to the car were upgrading the brakes (AP racing 6 pot fronts with paid RS14 pads, a common and in my experience a required upgrade) and adding a parrot cleverly concealed in the ashtray out of the way to allow bluetooth calls through the steering wheel buttons.
I was only thinking of selling it because there were slight signs of rust starting to appear through the paintwork at a few points. I didn't really mean to sell it, I swapped it with a colleague from work for a week for a VW amarok so I could tow my caterham to the nurburgring / Spa. He enjoyed the M5 so much he persuaded me to sell it to him, it really does have that affect on people. Incredibly capable car for the money.
I only bring this up as the last 4 months I have been using my knackered old 14 year old, 140,000mile skoda octavia estate tow car for day to day driving, after a while you start to a acclimatise to the soft comfy floaty suspension and last week I even started to think the 90bhp tune 1.9 tdi started to feel a bit quick. Thats was a warning sign, so 7 days later I am writing this waiting for my 2012 F10 M5 to be turned around by the bmws dealer having test driven one last weekend.
I didn't really intend to buy one, I was actually going in to test the F30 335d drive estate to be my do it all car (caterham tow car / daily driver / fast enough to be exciting). After test driving it I was left quite under whelmed, it was competent, and reasonably quick (308bhp diesel) but not my cup of tea. The dealer had a M5 in that day that hadn't been advertised for more than a few hours. I took it for a drive and shook the mans hand.
I only had the car for about 45mins and it was damp so I don't really have a full appreciation for what the car is like yet. It is quick, the steering is a bit numb, most modern cars are and the E39 wasn't know for great steering feel at the time either. It is a bit bigger than my old car but I had it down B roads on the test drive and I didn't find it an issue, as has been mentioned in comments on here. I don't need it to have the agility / steering feel / responses of a caterham in a saloon car, I have a caterham for that. I didn't think I when the F10 came out that I would end up purchasing one, but I'm going to give this one a go and see how I get on. Its very hard to find an alternative to an M5 after you have owned one and have sold it. As it turned out I couldn't, hence i'm giving the current generation a go. I'll give a review once I get the car and have put some miles under it.
I live in the north east of Scotland and we are lucky enough to have quite roads in the mountains within 30mins of where I live, I used the car as a daily commuter all year (winter tyres as required) and I have had a few trips to the continent in it. Most notable highlights were travelling to le mans in the car with a convoy with a scout car sent ahead to look for police then radio'ing back if the coast was clear for a stretching of the cars legs. A round trip to the Nurburgring where the car clocked over 150 miles around the Nordschleife both in the dry and also in the wet. On the way the car reached its limited top speed on the Autobahn's 4 up at least 5 times. (167mph indicated / 163mph on the sat nav before the limiter was hit. 155mph restrictor didn't seem to be very accurate...). I also had a great run chasing a friend on an Aprilla V twin motorbike on the iconic B500 in the black forest. The engine note seemed to complement the M5 car perfectly. I have taken the car around some of the best roads in Scotland and in Wales over the years and learnt how to drift around secluded roundabouts in it when there are no prying eyes.
Its been a very reliable motor over the 60,000 miles I used it only ever requiring consumables, nothing ever went wrong with it mechanically. It even had its original clutch when I sold it at 115,000 miles! The only changes I made to the car were upgrading the brakes (AP racing 6 pot fronts with paid RS14 pads, a common and in my experience a required upgrade) and adding a parrot cleverly concealed in the ashtray out of the way to allow bluetooth calls through the steering wheel buttons.
I was only thinking of selling it because there were slight signs of rust starting to appear through the paintwork at a few points. I didn't really mean to sell it, I swapped it with a colleague from work for a week for a VW amarok so I could tow my caterham to the nurburgring / Spa. He enjoyed the M5 so much he persuaded me to sell it to him, it really does have that affect on people. Incredibly capable car for the money.
I only bring this up as the last 4 months I have been using my knackered old 14 year old, 140,000mile skoda octavia estate tow car for day to day driving, after a while you start to a acclimatise to the soft comfy floaty suspension and last week I even started to think the 90bhp tune 1.9 tdi started to feel a bit quick. Thats was a warning sign, so 7 days later I am writing this waiting for my 2012 F10 M5 to be turned around by the bmws dealer having test driven one last weekend.
I didn't really intend to buy one, I was actually going in to test the F30 335d drive estate to be my do it all car (caterham tow car / daily driver / fast enough to be exciting). After test driving it I was left quite under whelmed, it was competent, and reasonably quick (308bhp diesel) but not my cup of tea. The dealer had a M5 in that day that hadn't been advertised for more than a few hours. I took it for a drive and shook the mans hand.
I only had the car for about 45mins and it was damp so I don't really have a full appreciation for what the car is like yet. It is quick, the steering is a bit numb, most modern cars are and the E39 wasn't know for great steering feel at the time either. It is a bit bigger than my old car but I had it down B roads on the test drive and I didn't find it an issue, as has been mentioned in comments on here. I don't need it to have the agility / steering feel / responses of a caterham in a saloon car, I have a caterham for that. I didn't think I when the F10 came out that I would end up purchasing one, but I'm going to give this one a go and see how I get on. Its very hard to find an alternative to an M5 after you have owned one and have sold it. As it turned out I couldn't, hence i'm giving the current generation a go. I'll give a review once I get the car and have put some miles under it.
Great post, mcerbm. I'm 8 months into M5 ownership and before buying had many of the reservations that others have expressed. Synthetic noise, numb steering, size, weight, lack of involvement.
Like you, my M5 is a tow car for a Caterham. I have other cars for visceral kicks. This is my daily. I've come to accept that modern cars will never have the tactility and connectedness of old. That's why I will probably never consider a 991 GT3: the earlier cars push all the right buttons for me and require years of skill and experience to master. That's what I want from a sports car.
But for a daily, I'm less fussy. It's got to carry the family plus luggage in comfort, have toys that make the menial tasks less challenging like reversing camera, HUD, a decent info/entertainment system, comfy seats with lots of adjustment.
It can do the fast stuff. A couple of weeks back I followed an F430 who dropped the hammer on a NSL dual carriageway and through some roundabouts. The M5 shadowed the Ferrari every inch until the speeds became a little silly and we both backed off. He probably had more fun but he must have been a little shocked (we were 5-up with luggage by the way).
MDM is surprisingly benign: I'm used to no electronics in high-performance cars which probably explains it. It doesn't require much skill to punt the M5 down a B-road, or kick the tail out and control the slide. Some of the posts on PH led me to believe the car was an animal. It really isn't. A Radical or a Porsche Cup car is an animal. This is dead easy to drive really fast. Which is good for some and bad for others.
Oh, and the fuel economy. Having previously owned the V10-engined M6, this is a revelation (once the engine loosens up after a few thousand miles). I get around 28mpg on the motorway, average low 20s including the school run.
As for the noise - TBH if no-one had told me, I'd never have noticed it's synthesised. It really is a non-issue.
Like you, my M5 is a tow car for a Caterham. I have other cars for visceral kicks. This is my daily. I've come to accept that modern cars will never have the tactility and connectedness of old. That's why I will probably never consider a 991 GT3: the earlier cars push all the right buttons for me and require years of skill and experience to master. That's what I want from a sports car.
But for a daily, I'm less fussy. It's got to carry the family plus luggage in comfort, have toys that make the menial tasks less challenging like reversing camera, HUD, a decent info/entertainment system, comfy seats with lots of adjustment.
It can do the fast stuff. A couple of weeks back I followed an F430 who dropped the hammer on a NSL dual carriageway and through some roundabouts. The M5 shadowed the Ferrari every inch until the speeds became a little silly and we both backed off. He probably had more fun but he must have been a little shocked (we were 5-up with luggage by the way).
MDM is surprisingly benign: I'm used to no electronics in high-performance cars which probably explains it. It doesn't require much skill to punt the M5 down a B-road, or kick the tail out and control the slide. Some of the posts on PH led me to believe the car was an animal. It really isn't. A Radical or a Porsche Cup car is an animal. This is dead easy to drive really fast. Which is good for some and bad for others.
Oh, and the fuel economy. Having previously owned the V10-engined M6, this is a revelation (once the engine loosens up after a few thousand miles). I get around 28mpg on the motorway, average low 20s including the school run.
As for the noise - TBH if no-one had told me, I'd never have noticed it's synthesised. It really is a non-issue.
Edited by Harris_I on Saturday 8th November 12:21
It seems the Caterham boys have a rather different view of the M5. What about those who will never have the slightest inclination to buy a Caterham (even if seeing one puts a smile on one's face), as they won't fit in them, don't have the space, can't cope with the impracticality etc? I'd want something exciting, and for me, natural aspiration is a crucial part of that - and, though I like autos for daily driving, there's still nothing like the fun of thrashing a manual up a B-road with the engine singing... a 550-odd bhp 2-ton turbo barge with DCT just isn't going to be entertaining in real life, is it? Whereas I could imagine a ~400bhp N/A M5 with a manual could be - although it still weighs near 2 tons.
RoverP6B said:
a 550-odd bhp 2-ton turbo barge with DCT just isn't going to be entertaining in real life, is it?
This is where you're wrong. I've not experienced it in a M5 but have driven an M6 a few times, and spent around 2k miles in one so far..... And it's absolutely amazing. How many times have you driven one?
E65Ross said:
This is where you're wrong. I've not experienced it in a M5 but have driven an M6 a few times, and spent around 2k miles in one so far..... And it's absolutely amazing.
How many times have you driven one?
As I said ages ago, I haven't. I just don't see something that powerful but with turbos, autobox (DCT) and (IIRC?) electric steering being much fun on a B-road. My 535i is usable and fun. Wouldn't mind more grunt, as adequate as it is for daily use. It's interesting that the senior staff at my local BMW main dealer, as well as my trusty independent brand specialist, agree that the E39 in all forms is the best BMW ever made, especially in M5 form. Considering how cheap M5s are now, I'm starting to do the man-maths on one as a fun, usable investment...How many times have you driven one?
RoverP6B said:
E65Ross said:
This is where you're wrong. I've not experienced it in a M5 but have driven an M6 a few times, and spent around 2k miles in one so far..... And it's absolutely amazing.
How many times have you driven one?
As I said ages ago, I haven't. I just don't see something that powerful but with turbos, autobox (DCT) and (IIRC?) electric steering being much fun on a B-road. My 535i is usable and fun. Wouldn't mind more grunt, as adequate as it is for daily use. It's interesting that the senior staff at my local BMW main dealer, as well as my trusty independent brand specialist, agree that the E39 in all forms is the best BMW ever made, especially in M5 form. Considering how cheap M5s are now, I'm starting to do the man-maths on one as a fun, usable investment...How many times have you driven one?
RoverP6B said:
E65Ross said:
S9 what you're saying is that in your opinion based on no experience that..... Actually I'll just finish there.
I'm raising some questions based on theoretical knowledge and nearly 40 years' driving experience...The M5 isn't ever going to be the last word in fun.... It's a comprised car by definition. But the way you brush it aside without having ever tried it is really rather comical.
I prefer it to the E39 M5. You probably haven't ever been in one of those, either, have you.
E65Ross said:
What experience do you have of 550bhp DCT saloons in your 40 years?
The M5 isn't ever going to be the last word in fun.... It's a comprised car by definition. But the way you brush it aside without having ever tried it is really rather comical.
I prefer it to the E39 M5. You probably haven't ever been in one of those, either, have you.
I've already told you, I haven't driven the F10M. Nor, for that matter, have I driven its predecessor, yet, although it's definitely one of the next two cars I'm going to buy (that or a 750i, I haven't quite decided). However, one doesn't need to have driven one to know that, in fun stakes, HPAS > EPAS, manual > everything else, natural aspiration > forced induction, and usable power > power you just can't get near exploiting on the road. I'd rather have fun within a modest percentage margin over the speed limit than have to be going triple figures before the thing begins to feel alive. Far greater drivers than I have levelled similar criticisms at the Porsche 991 GT3 for the same reasons.The M5 isn't ever going to be the last word in fun.... It's a comprised car by definition. But the way you brush it aside without having ever tried it is really rather comical.
I prefer it to the E39 M5. You probably haven't ever been in one of those, either, have you.
RoverP6B said:
E65Ross said:
What experience do you have of 550bhp DCT saloons in your 40 years?
The M5 isn't ever going to be the last word in fun.... It's a comprised car by definition. But the way you brush it aside without having ever tried it is really rather comical.
I prefer it to the E39 M5. You probably haven't ever been in one of those, either, have you.
I've already told you, I haven't driven the F10M. Nor, for that matter, have I driven its predecessor, yet, although it's definitely one of the next two cars I'm going to buy (that or a 750i, I haven't quite decided). However, one doesn't need to have driven one to know that, in fun stakes, HPAS > EPAS, manual > everything else, natural aspiration > forced induction, and usable power > power you just can't get near exploiting on the road. I'd rather have fun within a modest percentage margin over the speed limit than have to be going triple figures before the thing begins to feel alive. Far greater drivers than I have levelled similar criticisms at the Porsche 991 GT3 for the same reasons.The M5 isn't ever going to be the last word in fun.... It's a comprised car by definition. But the way you brush it aside without having ever tried it is really rather comical.
I prefer it to the E39 M5. You probably haven't ever been in one of those, either, have you.
Actually, as an F10 M5 owner, I find myself not exactly disagreeing. It's a bit of a rocket ship, you punch the coordinates and let it fly. It doesn't really truly immerse you in the experience. I find the humble E39 more satisfying in many ways. Would I go back? No, because I want something modern, dependable, economical etc.
When I open the garage door on a Sunday morning, I am lucky enough to find 3 other cars to entertain me a lot more. All three are old school, pre the latest electronics and clever transmissions. The F10 really is too quick to be truly entertaining on public roads and feedback through the primary controls has been deadened by modern NVH, economy and safety requirements. I still think it's an outstanding car, but I'm of the school that believes the golden age of motoring is long gone.
When I open the garage door on a Sunday morning, I am lucky enough to find 3 other cars to entertain me a lot more. All three are old school, pre the latest electronics and clever transmissions. The F10 really is too quick to be truly entertaining on public roads and feedback through the primary controls has been deadened by modern NVH, economy and safety requirements. I still think it's an outstanding car, but I'm of the school that believes the golden age of motoring is long gone.
More power does not equal usable power. The M5 now has far more power than you can use on public roads. The tyres are consequently huge, which means more grip. My E39 has too much grip as it is, on cheap Chinese tyres, to be really playful. It's got to the point, as Mr Harris has observed, that really fast cars now have to be driven at highly illegal speeds to enjoy them at all - and that, in my book, is not fun.
It's odd that you've found a document mentioning the F10M having hydraulic steering when the various magazine articles about it I've read have mentioned EPAS, and certainly criticised it for lacking feel.
It's odd that you've found a document mentioning the F10M having hydraulic steering when the various magazine articles about it I've read have mentioned EPAS, and certainly criticised it for lacking feel.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff