RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5

[Patrick Bateman]

M5 stuck with hydraulic, M3/4 went electric.

[Marty Funkhouser]

RoverP6B said:

It's not just the noise. It's the forced induction, the excessive power, excessive weight, excessive tyre width, the bloody dual-clutch gearbox... 150-200bhp less (depending on its real-world power output), minus the turbochargers and a 500kg diet would make it a vastly better car. AND WHY WON'T THEY BUILD A TOURING?!?!?!?!!!!!

because they would lose money on it.

[Mr Whippy]

M meant Marketing and stopped meaning Motorsport increasingly over time, but since BMW went FI everything they're pretty much guaranteed to not be anything like they used to be.

[E65Ross]

Mr Whippy said:

M meant Marketing and stopped meaning Motorsport increasingly over time, but since BMW went FI everything they're pretty much guaranteed to not be anything like they used to be.

You mean like they never used to run a turbo in F1 in the M10-based engine era?

[Mr Whippy]

E65Ross said:

Mr Whippy said:

M meant Marketing and stopped meaning Motorsport increasingly over time, but since BMW went FI everything they're pretty much guaranteed to not be anything like they used to be.

You mean like they never used to run a turbo in F1 in the M10-based engine era?

Ah yes, lets compare engines made for racing cars with ones made for road cars. That's a winning argument right there.

[E65Ross]

Mr Whippy said:

E65Ross said:

Mr Whippy said:

M meant Marketing and stopped meaning Motorsport increasingly over time, but since BMW went FI everything they're pretty much guaranteed to not be anything like they used to be.

You mean like they never used to run a turbo in F1 in the M10-based engine era?

Ah yes, lets compare engines made for racing cars with ones made for road cars. That's a winning argument right there.

You're the one who mentioned motorsport, no?

[k-ink]

I quite fancy the E34 M5, simply based on the cool retro looks. The E39 M5 is about as new as I'd ever want to go, as it bridges the divide between old school and new, IMHO.

[mcerbm]

mcerbm said:

As a previous E39 M5 owner I have been reading these comments with interest. I sold me E39 M5 in early July, and I have been a bit lost ever since. I owned it for 7 years and I think I did it justice for suitable use over those years.

I live in the north east of Scotland and we are lucky enough to have quite roads in the mountains within 30mins of where I live, I used the car as a daily commuter all year (winter tyres as required) and I have had a few trips to the continent in it. Most notable highlights were travelling to le mans in the car with a convoy with a scout car sent ahead to look for police then radio'ing back if the coast was clear for a stretching of the cars legs. A round trip to the Nurburgring where the car clocked over 150 miles around the Nordschleife both in the dry and also in the wet. On the way the car reached its limited top speed on the Autobahn's 4 up at least 5 times. (167mph indicated / 163mph on the sat nav before the limiter was hit. 155mph restrictor didn't seem to be very accurate...). I also had a great run chasing a friend on an Aprilla V twin motorbike on the iconic B500 in the black forest. The engine note seemed to complement the M5 car perfectly. I have taken the car around some of the best roads in Scotland and in Wales over the years and learnt how to drift around secluded roundabouts in it when there are no prying eyes.

Its been a very reliable motor over the 60,000 miles I used it only ever requiring consumables, nothing ever went wrong with it mechanically. It even had its original clutch when I sold it at 115,000 miles! The only changes I made to the car were upgrading the brakes (AP racing 6 pot fronts with paid RS14 pads, a common and in my experience a required upgrade) and adding a parrot cleverly concealed in the ashtray out of the way to allow bluetooth calls through the steering wheel buttons.

I was only thinking of selling it because there were slight signs of rust starting to appear through the paintwork at a few points. I didn't really mean to sell it, I swapped it with a colleague from work for a week for a VW amarok so I could tow my caterham to the nurburgring / Spa. He enjoyed the M5 so much he persuaded me to sell it to him, it really does have that affect on people. Incredibly capable car for the money.

I only bring this up as the last 4 months I have been using my knackered old 14 year old, 140,000mile skoda octavia estate tow car for day to day driving, after a while you start to a acclimatise to the soft comfy floaty suspension and last week I even started to think the 90bhp tune 1.9 tdi started to feel a bit quick. Thats was a warning sign, so 7 days later I am writing this waiting for my 2012 F10 M5 to be turned around by the bmws dealer having test driven one last weekend.

I didn't really intend to buy one, I was actually going in to test the F30 335d drive estate to be my do it all car (caterham tow car / daily driver / fast enough to be exciting). After test driving it I was left quite under whelmed, it was competent, and reasonably quick (308bhp diesel) but not my cup of tea. The dealer had a M5 in that day that hadn't been advertised for more than a few hours. I took it for a drive and shook the mans hand.

I only had the car for about 45mins and it was damp so I don't really have a full appreciation for what the car is like yet. It is quick, the steering is a bit numb, most modern cars are and the E39 wasn't know for great steering feel at the time either. It is a bit bigger than my old car but I had it down B roads on the test drive and I didn't find it an issue, as has been mentioned in comments on here. I don't need it to have the agility / steering feel / responses of a caterham in a saloon car, I have a caterham for that. I didn't think I when the F10 came out that I would end up purchasing one, but I'm going to give this one a go and see how I get on. Its very hard to find an alternative to an M5 after you have owned one and have sold it. As it turned out I couldn't, hence i'm giving the current generation a go. I'll give a review once I get the car and have put some miles under it.

When I first wrote this post I was awaiting my F10 M5. I thought I would resurrect the thread as I have now had my car for almost 2 years and think I know it well enough to give an over view of the car and compare it with my 7 years of E39 M5 ownership.

Some of the obvious points to address are the change from manual to dual clutch, the piped in engine note over the speakers, the turbo charged V8 vs naturally aspirated V8, the level of electronics, and if the car lives up to the M5 badge based on my experience of the E39 M5, which is generally considered to be the sweet point in the M5 lineup.

I'll start with a round up of how I have used the car. Its my daily commuter to work during all but the winter months (a bit of dual carriage way, a bit of country B roads, a bit of town driving), I have taken it over the cairngorm mountain range quite a few times over the two years, it has been on track at knockhill circuit and I have also done the North Coast 500 route around the coastline of the highlands, so it has had a good range of driving styles under its belt but I haven't had a chance to take it to the continent.

I'll get the boring stuff out of the way first. It works very well as a daily driver, some people may not like the mpg but for me it was a slight improvement over my old car in most types of driving apart from cruising where it was a lot better. my E39 was officially 22mpg combined i think, the F10 is 28.5 I think? The reality is the F10 is about 2-3 mpg better than the E39, cruising at motorway speeds its maybe 5-6mpg better. It also has the potential to go much lower than the E39 if you push on. I can actually get 30mpg out of the car on a long run, the E39 was about 26-27 max. The fuel tank is also much larger and range is pretty good, possibly 400miles (80 litre tank) if you have the restraint and patience to achieve that (I doubt many people have).

The dual clutch gearbox is praised in reviews as being very good, I have driven an E60 and its box is pretty terrible in auto but reasonable when driving quickly (brief throttle lift during a change when driving fast and it works well) for the F10 its pretty good but I think a manual works better in a few situations. The F10 does change smoothly but its still a computer controlled clutch when pulling away from a standstill and it can sometimes not act as you expect. Its characteristics when pulling away in 1st and 2nd are very different and it is inconsistent in which gear it picks, mostly 2nd for pulling away then sometimes 1st. its good to look at the dash if you are pulling away in a tight spot at a round about, or better put it in manual mode to know what you are getting. delicate edging forward or backwards is still a bit tricky, the car has a mode where you tap the throttle to let it know its a small movement required, if you are edging up to a wall, the process involves, a tap on throttle, immediately hovering over brake with a light brush to slow the movement but not enough for the car to cancel the move because you pushed the brake too much. if the car has just started and is idling fast, forget it, it thinks its at santa pod when you request a delicate move forward.

tech wise its brilliant, the head up display is a delight and a genuinely useful feature that I miss when I drive other cars, the sat nav details in the heads up are very useful, and its brilliant when you have the car in M mode. The speed limit display is useful in town to for any changing 30mph / 40mph areas or just reminding what limit you are in if you have missed a sign.

In general it works very well as a comfortable every day car, I have my car on 20" wheels and I think it rides very well, although the dampers are adjustable the car feels close to the E39 on the softest damper setting, its maybe slightly softer but not massively. I always thought the E39 was a great all round compromise between comfort and a competent chassis you can push. My version of comfortable may differ to yours, I like to be able to feel the road and bumps but just have the edge taken / harshness taken away from it. I generally think most cars are too soft on the road that I have tried (normal 5 series or 3 series that have been courtesy cars). Although the M5 is stiffer it doesn't use run flats and I think it rides better than all run-flat bmws while still having better / stiffer damping. the suspension is aluminium on the M5 which may help with unsprung weight relative to the normal 5 series.

The car probably feels less special than the E39 when just driving. The E39 had a nice note from the engine at all times, it really was a great sound while never being too loud or intrusive and full of character. This is part throttle low rpm general driving. That combined with the manual gear box and slightly stiffer setup helped it be more of an event more of the time in normal use, there are benefits of having a more relaxed M5 and the nature of the DCT, it does come in handy but it would of been nice to have a bit more engine noise come through while muting around and its hard to tell from the inside that its a v8 when lightly driving around.

So is it a faff to setup with so many electronic settings for driving to try and get an enjoyable drive? NO, what a load of nonsense. Spend 2 minutes in the menu shortly after getting the car and set up the two M buttons on the steering wheel to what you think you may like, try it, maybe tweak to see the difference then leave alone and enjoy. To activate one of your m modes once set, you push the button a message appears on the dash to push again to confirm your choice. The reality is that if you are driving along (in a controlled area of course....) and you see a corner which you want to have the rear end of the car more active you thumb reaches for the button instinctively and you double click just like you would a computer mouse, normal car to alert, entertaining, mobile car in approx 0.5secs from registering an opportunity. the individual buttons for changing steering / dampers / engine response / stability control don't get touched, just program your favourites and activate / de-activate as required.

My preference is to have a dry setup on one M button, wet setup on the other. steering is on standard setting for both, I think it feels un natural each setting that adds weight, engine response is on the max setting for both so its consistent, and I think its been programmed well and doesn't feel artificially forced, i.e large throttle openings for small pedal movements. For dry the dampers on the middle setting and stability control fully off, for wet the dampers kept on the softest setting to aid traction and the stability on MDM. In practice I find that I use the "dry setup" in the wet quite often too as the mdm can correct the car as you correct it. The car has a nice chassis and is predictable so it isn't daunting to drive in the wet as long as you are comfortable with the power delivery and have a good feel for how the car is reacting to the elements.

Engine - I quite like it. It suits the car well. I need to quantify that I didn't think I would like it and have never really fancied a turbo car other than to try one for the experience. I have always liked N/A engines with character. I have a k-series caterham which I use in time trials / sprints hill climbs and track days. its 215bhp out of a 1.8l engine revving to a howling 8300rpm through throttle bodies, it is in short an exciting engine / car combo. It would be unfair to compare the M5 to the caterham, they accelerate at the same rate up to about 110mph (vbox data at knock ill on the straight) then the caterham as aero issues, and the M5 romps on. Comparing the engine to the N/A V8 in the E39 I think it compares well. The E39 sounded better in the cabin, but the F10 I think doesn't sound too bad, the piped in sound through the speakers? if you didn't know you wouldn't be able to tell. I have been driven in the passenger seat and had my ear up to the speaker, its really hard to tell, I would almost go as far as saying that it might be broken in my car (probably not). I have been in a i8 and its obvious its coming from the speakers. In the F10 its hard to tell, so for me a total non issue. I read a technical note form bmw on a forum somewhere that said they accentuate certain frequencies rather than actually play a engine note over the speakers.

I would say the engine pulled like a gear down in the E39, i.e if I accelerate in 4th in the F10 you got the accelerative force of full throttle in 3rd in the E39. There is no doubting its a quick car. But I like the way it revs out, it has of course a strong mid range but it still pulls hard increasing in force through 5 - 6k and staying solid to 7. The E39 was incredibly linear, it pulled from about 2k with no change in ferocity (or drop off) right to the red line (which was just over 7k as well I think). The F10 has more character of delivery in that respect. It also has a softer throttle response but not by much and if you are driving quickly its not much of an issue and you can have finesse and meter out just enough and feel how the car is gripping through the chassis. It a very impressive technical achievement and is enjoyable to drive.

Even though the weight is more in this car it is a more enjoyable quick drive, the chassis has a great front end, better than the E39 and is adjustable and playful. On track the chassis is better, on the road I would say its also better, even though heavier, the middle damper setting has a better control of the chassis than the E39.

The brakes in the F10 are non-comparable to standard E39 brakes as they were TERRIBLE. If you think the E39 is the best M5 and you have standard brakes you haven't properly experienced the car. I upgraded to 6 pot AP's and pagid 24hour endurance pads, possibly a bit extreme but it allowed you to fully use the car to its potential. The F10 brakes are very good but they have a softer pedal feel than the Ap's and the car will fade due to its weight and lack of dedicated cooling ducts for the brakes. But on the whole they are impressive.

lack of a manual. tricky one, I loved the manual in the E39, the bmw pedals are setup perfectly for heel and toe with the floor hinged throttle, the manual worked great in that car. the dual clutch allows you to concentrate more on the driving and probably suits this car better. However I would prefer to have a GT3 with a manual, I think ferrari should of offered a manual in the 458 (even if it was a 911R type small run model) and I wouldn't have a sequential in a caterham since I use it on the road. So I do love the manuals and the work you have to put in, and don't like how DCT or similar can flatter lesser ability drivers. however this car does work well with a DCT.

Is it too fast for the road? I don't think so, and it depends on the driver ultimately and their choices. I have never understood the argument some people put forward about this type of car being too fast for the road. Any mildly sporting car can be a license loser, i got my first points in a 1.0litre nissan micra at the age of 17 with 60bhp in a NSL area (not my choice of car!). A clio 172 cup from the 90's could easily be classed as too quick for the road, easily has enough power to get into license losing territory on any country road in a handful of seconds, can carry big speeds round corners etc. So depending on where and how you exercise the M5 it can be enjoyable on the road, its a good chassis with all the electronics off and with them on then it should be fine for most people.

So to summarise I guess I am a bit spoilt by having access to a caterham, I got most of my kicks out of that car, its at the other end of the spectrum which means I probably don't miss a manual as much since I have access to one in a much rawer, quicker, agile car. But for a quick all round car the F10 M5 is a great car and it still has its own character and charms and I enjoy driving it, you just need to go for the M button to get the full experience and I think the car works well in this jekyl and hyde type split personality that it has. Would I want to swap back to the E39? probably not, I enjoyed my time in that car, had a lot of great journeys. Would I like to go for a drive again in a E39, absolutely! it really is a great m car and the F10 is also a great M car but just a different type. It is the current evo magazine pick for best saloon car.

So my advice is to go out and try one, don't be put off by pre-conceptions. on paper i shouldn't of liked the car but I really do now. Take it for what it is and don't expect it to be a exceptionally agile track weapon, its not, intact for me its almost 5 seconds a lap slower round knockhill than the caterham! But it is very competent in pretty much all areas and is good fun with it.

apologies for the extensive review, I had two years of findings to compare!

[Zod]

mcerbm said:

mcerbm said:

As a previous E39 M5 owner I have been reading these comments with interest. I sold me E39 M5 in early July, and I have been a bit lost ever since. I owned it for 7 years and I think I did it justice for suitable use over those years.

I live in the north east of Scotland and we are lucky enough to have quite roads in the mountains within 30mins of where I live, I used the car as a daily commuter all year (winter tyres as required) and I have had a few trips to the continent in it. Most notable highlights were travelling to le mans in the car with a convoy with a scout car sent ahead to look for police then radio'ing back if the coast was clear for a stretching of the cars legs. A round trip to the Nurburgring where the car clocked over 150 miles around the Nordschleife both in the dry and also in the wet. On the way the car reached its limited top speed on the Autobahn's 4 up at least 5 times. (167mph indicated / 163mph on the sat nav before the limiter was hit. 155mph restrictor didn't seem to be very accurate...). I also had a great run chasing a friend on an Aprilla V twin motorbike on the iconic B500 in the black forest. The engine note seemed to complement the M5 car perfectly. I have taken the car around some of the best roads in Scotland and in Wales over the years and learnt how to drift around secluded roundabouts in it when there are no prying eyes.

Its been a very reliable motor over the 60,000 miles I used it only ever requiring consumables, nothing ever went wrong with it mechanically. It even had its original clutch when I sold it at 115,000 miles! The only changes I made to the car were upgrading the brakes (AP racing 6 pot fronts with paid RS14 pads, a common and in my experience a required upgrade) and adding a parrot cleverly concealed in the ashtray out of the way to allow bluetooth calls through the steering wheel buttons.

I was only thinking of selling it because there were slight signs of rust starting to appear through the paintwork at a few points. I didn't really mean to sell it, I swapped it with a colleague from work for a week for a VW amarok so I could tow my caterham to the nurburgring / Spa. He enjoyed the M5 so much he persuaded me to sell it to him, it really does have that affect on people. Incredibly capable car for the money.

I only bring this up as the last 4 months I have been using my knackered old 14 year old, 140,000mile skoda octavia estate tow car for day to day driving, after a while you start to a acclimatise to the soft comfy floaty suspension and last week I even started to think the 90bhp tune 1.9 tdi started to feel a bit quick. Thats was a warning sign, so 7 days later I am writing this waiting for my 2012 F10 M5 to be turned around by the bmws dealer having test driven one last weekend.

I didn't really intend to buy one, I was actually going in to test the F30 335d drive estate to be my do it all car (caterham tow car / daily driver / fast enough to be exciting). After test driving it I was left quite under whelmed, it was competent, and reasonably quick (308bhp diesel) but not my cup of tea. The dealer had a M5 in that day that hadn't been advertised for more than a few hours. I took it for a drive and shook the mans hand.

I only had the car for about 45mins and it was damp so I don't really have a full appreciation for what the car is like yet. It is quick, the steering is a bit numb, most modern cars are and the E39 wasn't know for great steering feel at the time either. It is a bit bigger than my old car but I had it down B roads on the test drive and I didn't find it an issue, as has been mentioned in comments on here. I don't need it to have the agility / steering feel / responses of a caterham in a saloon car, I have a caterham for that. I didn't think I when the F10 came out that I would end up purchasing one, but I'm going to give this one a go and see how I get on. Its very hard to find an alternative to an M5 after you have owned one and have sold it. As it turned out I couldn't, hence i'm giving the current generation a go. I'll give a review once I get the car and have put some miles under it.

When I first wrote this post I was awaiting my F10 M5. I thought I would resurrect the thread as I have now had my car for almost 2 years and think I know it well enough to give an over view of the car and compare it with my 7 years of E39 M5 ownership.

Some of the obvious points to address are the change from manual to dual clutch, the piped in engine note over the speakers, the turbo charged V8 vs naturally aspirated V8, the level of electronics, and if the car lives up to the M5 badge based on my experience of the E39 M5, which is generally considered to be the sweet point in the M5 lineup.

I'll start with a round up of how I have used the car. Its my daily commuter to work during all but the winter months (a bit of dual carriage way, a bit of country B roads, a bit of town driving), I have taken it over the cairngorm mountain range quite a few times over the two years, it has been on track at knockhill circuit and I have also done the North Coast 500 route around the coastline of the highlands, so it has had a good range of driving styles under its belt but I haven't had a chance to take it to the continent.

I'll get the boring stuff out of the way first. It works very well as a daily driver, some people may not like the mpg but for me it was a slight improvement over my old car in most types of driving apart from cruising where it was a lot better. my E39 was officially 22mpg combined i think, the F10 is 28.5 I think? The reality is the F10 is about 2-3 mpg better than the E39, cruising at motorway speeds its maybe 5-6mpg better. It also has the potential to go much lower than the E39 if you push on. I can actually get 30mpg out of the car on a long run, the E39 was about 26-27 max. The fuel tank is also much larger and range is pretty good, possibly 400miles (80 litre tank) if you have the restraint and patience to achieve that (I doubt many people have).

The dual clutch gearbox is praised in reviews as being very good, I have driven an E60 and its box is pretty terrible in auto but reasonable when driving quickly (brief throttle lift during a change when driving fast and it works well) for the F10 its pretty good but I think a manual works better in a few situations. The F10 does change smoothly but its still a computer controlled clutch when pulling away from a standstill and it can sometimes not act as you expect. Its characteristics when pulling away in 1st and 2nd are very different and it is inconsistent in which gear it picks, mostly 2nd for pulling away then sometimes 1st. its good to look at the dash if you are pulling away in a tight spot at a round about, or better put it in manual mode to know what you are getting. delicate edging forward or backwards is still a bit tricky, the car has a mode where you tap the throttle to let it know its a small movement required, if you are edging up to a wall, the process involves, a tap on throttle, immediately hovering over brake with a light brush to slow the movement but not enough for the car to cancel the move because you pushed the brake too much. if the car has just started and is idling fast, forget it, it thinks its at santa pod when you request a delicate move forward.

tech wise its brilliant, the head up display is a delight and a genuinely useful feature that I miss when I drive other cars, the sat nav details in the heads up are very useful, and its brilliant when you have the car in M mode. The speed limit display is useful in town to for any changing 30mph / 40mph areas or just reminding what limit you are in if you have missed a sign.

In general it works very well as a comfortable every day car, I have my car on 20" wheels and I think it rides very well, although the dampers are adjustable the car feels close to the E39 on the softest damper setting, its maybe slightly softer but not massively. I always thought the E39 was a great all round compromise between comfort and a competent chassis you can push. My version of comfortable may differ to yours, I like to be able to feel the road and bumps but just have the edge taken / harshness taken away from it. I generally think most cars are too soft on the road that I have tried (normal 5 series or 3 series that have been courtesy cars). Although the M5 is stiffer it doesn't use run flats and I think it rides better than all run-flat bmws while still having better / stiffer damping. the suspension is aluminium on the M5 which may help with unsprung weight relative to the normal 5 series.

The car probably feels less special than the E39 when just driving. The E39 had a nice note from the engine at all times, it really was a great sound while never being too loud or intrusive and full of character. This is part throttle low rpm general driving. That combined with the manual gear box and slightly stiffer setup helped it be more of an event more of the time in normal use, there are benefits of having a more relaxed M5 and the nature of the DCT, it does come in handy but it would of been nice to have a bit more engine noise come through while muting around and its hard to tell from the inside that its a v8 when lightly driving around.

So is it a faff to setup with so many electronic settings for driving to try and get an enjoyable drive? NO, what a load of nonsense. Spend 2 minutes in the menu shortly after getting the car and set up the two M buttons on the steering wheel to what you think you may like, try it, maybe tweak to see the difference then leave alone and enjoy. To activate one of your m modes once set, you push the button a message appears on the dash to push again to confirm your choice. The reality is that if you are driving along (in a controlled area of course....) and you see a corner which you want to have the rear end of the car more active you thumb reaches for the button instinctively and you double click just like you would a computer mouse, normal car to alert, entertaining, mobile car in approx 0.5secs from registering an opportunity. the individual buttons for changing steering / dampers / engine response / stability control don't get touched, just program your favourites and activate / de-activate as required.

My preference is to have a dry setup on one M button, wet setup on the other. steering is on standard setting for both, I think it feels un natural each setting that adds weight, engine response is on the max setting for both so its consistent, and I think its been programmed well and doesn't feel artificially forced, i.e large throttle openings for small pedal movements. For dry the dampers on the middle setting and stability control fully off, for wet the dampers kept on the softest setting to aid traction and the stability on MDM. In practice I find that I use the "dry setup" in the wet quite often too as the mdm can correct the car as you correct it. The car has a nice chassis and is predictable so it isn't daunting to drive in the wet as long as you are comfortable with the power delivery and have a good feel for how the car is reacting to the elements.

Engine - I quite like it. It suits the car well. I need to quantify that I didn't think I would like it and have never really fancied a turbo car other than to try one for the experience. I have always liked N/A engines with character. I have a k-series caterham which I use in time trials / sprints hill climbs and track days. its 215bhp out of a 1.8l engine revving to a howling 8300rpm through throttle bodies, it is in short an exciting engine / car combo. It would be unfair to compare the M5 to the caterham, they accelerate at the same rate up to about 110mph (vbox data at knock ill on the straight) then the caterham as aero issues, and the M5 romps on. Comparing the engine to the N/A V8 in the E39 I think it compares well. The E39 sounded better in the cabin, but the F10 I think doesn't sound too bad, the piped in sound through the speakers? if you didn't know you wouldn't be able to tell. I have been driven in the passenger seat and had my ear up to the speaker, its really hard to tell, I would almost go as far as saying that it might be broken in my car (probably not). I have been in a i8 and its obvious its coming from the speakers. In the F10 its hard to tell, so for me a total non issue. I read a technical note form bmw on a forum somewhere that said they accentuate certain frequencies rather than actually play a engine note over the speakers.

I would say the engine pulled like a gear down in the E39, i.e if I accelerate in 4th in the F10 you got the accelerative force of full throttle in 3rd in the E39. There is no doubting its a quick car. But I like the way it revs out, it has of course a strong mid range but it still pulls hard increasing in force through 5 - 6k and staying solid to 7. The E39 was incredibly linear, it pulled from about 2k with no change in ferocity (or drop off) right to the red line (which was just over 7k as well I think). The F10 has more character of delivery in that respect. It also has a softer throttle response but not by much and if you are driving quickly its not much of an issue and you can have finesse and meter out just enough and feel how the car is gripping through the chassis. It a very impressive technical achievement and is enjoyable to drive.

Even though the weight is more in this car it is a more enjoyable quick drive, the chassis has a great front end, better than the E39 and is adjustable and playful. On track the chassis is better, on the road I would say its also better, even though heavier, the middle damper setting has a better control of the chassis than the E39.

The brakes in the F10 are non-comparable to standard E39 brakes as they were TERRIBLE. If you think the E39 is the best M5 and you have standard brakes you haven't properly experienced the car. I upgraded to 6 pot AP's and pagid 24hour endurance pads, possibly a bit extreme but it allowed you to fully use the car to its potential. The F10 brakes are very good but they have a softer pedal feel than the Ap's and the car will fade due to its weight and lack of dedicated cooling ducts for the brakes. But on the whole they are impressive.

lack of a manual. tricky one, I loved the manual in the E39, the bmw pedals are setup perfectly for heel and toe with the floor hinged throttle, the manual worked great in that car. the dual clutch allows you to concentrate more on the driving and probably suits this car better. However I would prefer to have a GT3 with a manual, I think ferrari should of offered a manual in the 458 (even if it was a 911R type small run model) and I wouldn't have a sequential in a caterham since I use it on the road. So I do love the manuals and the work you have to put in, and don't like how DCT or similar can flatter lesser ability drivers. however this car does work well with a DCT.

Is it too fast for the road? I don't think so, and it depends on the driver ultimately and their choices. I have never understood the argument some people put forward about this type of car being too fast for the road. Any mildly sporting car can be a license loser, i got my first points in a 1.0litre nissan micra at the age of 17 with 60bhp in a NSL area (not my choice of car!). A clio 172 cup from the 90's could easily be classed as too quick for the road, easily has enough power to get into license losing territory on any country road in a handful of seconds, can carry big speeds round corners etc. So depending on where and how you exercise the M5 it can be enjoyable on the road, its a good chassis with all the electronics off and with them on then it should be fine for most people.

So to summarise I guess I am a bit spoilt by having access to a caterham, I got most of my kicks out of that car, its at the other end of the spectrum which means I probably don't miss a manual as much since I have access to one in a much rawer, quicker, agile car. But for a quick all round car the F10 M5 is a great car and it still has its own character and charms and I enjoy driving it, you just need to go for the M button to get the full experience and I think the car works well in this jekyl and hyde type split personality that it has. Would I want to swap back to the E39? probably not, I enjoyed my time in that car, had a lot of great journeys. Would I like to go for a drive again in a E39, absolutely! it really is a great m car and the F10 is also a great M car but just a different type. It is the current evo magazine pick for best saloon car.

So my advice is to go out and try one, don't be put off by pre-conceptions. on paper i shouldn't of liked the car but I really do now. Take it for what it is and don't expect it to be a exceptionally agile track weapon, its not, intact for me its almost 5 seconds a lap slower round knockhill than the caterham! But it is very competent in pretty much all areas and is good fun with it.

apologies for the extensive review, I had two years of findings to compare!

Don't apologise! That's a great review. Well written and interesting. I wrote something similar, probably a little shorter about the E60 M5, having moved into it from an M3 CSL.

I think I will have another M5 at some point.

[theboss]

Great write-up. I am 41k miles into mine now, with a DMS stage 2 map performed at 25k which has turned it into something else altogether. I have always had a soft spot for alpinas and I think the F10 has moved more into this territory in terms of providing an incredibly fast paced, discreet and comfortable daily - with the addition of a more ferocious edge when all the settings are dialled up to 10. Its a brilliant car all round - I have taken mine across Germany and back twice along with the ring - and it also covers all the practical stuff a single Dad with 3 kids could ask for. I very much agree with yor appraisal.

[Wills2]

Did 31k in mine over 12 months, it's a superb car and the definition of a mile muncher with huge reserves of power on tap.

The way it takes off at autobahn speeds is very impressive, the only car I've had where I thought this has to have more power than they quote.

[mcerbm]

to help give an idea of the different character of both M5's I have owned (and speed difference) see videos below:

F10 M5 on track at knockhill, keeping it conservative on braking distances and a little in apex speed as its my daily driver. speed data is from a vbox sport gps unit. Sound quality from go pro in case not great. but gives you a good idea of acceleration (true GPS data not speedo)

https://youtu.be/w-qhG2W3MWc

E39 M5 at nurburgring on a dry lap. standard car apart from brakes which are AP's

https://youtu.be/jqP9xnwBR8A

E39 drifting in the wet at nurburgring

https://youtu.be/8WHpUmQsr00

[Zod]

E65Ross said:

Mr Whippy said:

E65Ross said:

Mr Whippy said:

M meant Marketing and stopped meaning Motorsport increasingly over time, but since BMW went FI everything they're pretty much guaranteed to not be anything like they used to be.

You mean like they never used to run a turbo in F1 in the M10-based engine era?

Ah yes, lets compare engines made for racing cars with ones made for road cars. That's a winning argument right there.

You're the one who mentioned motorsport, no?

In my NA M car days (a decade of them), I'm pretty sure Mr Whippy was one of the ones dropping comments about how the cars weren't what they used to be.

[Wills2]

Zod said:

E65Ross said:

Mr Whippy said:

E65Ross said:

Mr Whippy said:

M meant Marketing and stopped meaning Motorsport increasingly over time, but since BMW went FI everything they're pretty much guaranteed to not be anything like they used to be.

You mean like they never used to run a turbo in F1 in the M10-based engine era?

Ah yes, lets compare engines made for racing cars with ones made for road cars. That's a winning argument right there.

You're the one who mentioned motorsport, no?

In my NA M car days (a decade of them), I'm pretty sure Mr Whippy was one of the ones dropping comments about how the cars weren't what they used to be.

But no doubt all backed up by his extensive experience of the cars I'm sure, both N/A and FI M cars.

[joscal]

Zod said:

In my NA M car days (a decade of them), I'm pretty sure Mr Whippy was one of the ones dropping comments about how the cars weren't what they used to be.

I've had all of them bar the e34 and concur. Great machines.

[Leins]

joscal said:

I've had all of them bar the e34 and concur. Great machines.

E34 was great too

[FWIW]

CampDavid said:

When the E34 came out it was huge (I was about 6 and called it "big BMW") but a few year passed and it looked perfect

When the E39 came out it was too big but a few year passed and it looked perfect

When the E60 came out it was too big and really ugly but a few year passed and now it looks perfect

The F10 will start to look good in a few years time, which is handy because you'd need to be mental to shove £85k into one knowing it'll be worth around £30k in three years time.

BMWs are kind of like the oposite of Italian populus cars, which all age like milk

Great, insightful post!

[CampDavid]

FWIW said:

CampDavid said:

When the E34 came out it was huge (I was about 6 and called it "big BMW") but a few year passed and it looked perfect

When the E39 came out it was too big but a few year passed and it looked perfect

When the E60 came out it was too big and really ugly but a few year passed and now it looks perfect

The F10 will start to look good in a few years time, which is handy because you'd need to be mental to shove £85k into one knowing it'll be worth around £30k in three years time.

BMWs are kind of like the oposite of Italian populus cars, which all age like milk

Great, insightful post!

Not sure if serious or sarcastic but, 4 and a half years on was a right? Starting to like the F10 a bit more, exhausts on the M5 still look forced though

[RoverP6B]

I loved the E34 and E39 the moment I saw them. Didn't like the E60 base models in SE trim, but a 530i M-sport or an M5 was always a striking looking car. The F10 has always and will always look like an overstyled yet styleless heap of crap.

[nickfrog]

RoverP6B said:

overstyled yet styleless heap of crap.

Interesting. Style tends to be subjective though - even if style matters more than substance to you. But each to their own.