RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
The new M3 is about 330kg heavier than the E30, so it's far from the lightest. The E92 M3 is 1655kg - 490kg more than the E30. Electric heated seats and aircon in an M3? I could just about understand those in an M5, but frankly if I wanted those I'd buy a Volvo V70. The M3 is a sports car, not a luxobarge. The CSL was a step in the right direction (SMG apart) but I'd have made all the detachable panels from CF, not just the boot.
Did you buy a csl? You've just shown your total ignorance to what car manufacturers are there for. Money. The csl which was "a step in the right direction" clearly wasn't, because it was a sales disaster compared to the normal car or the M5.E65Ross said:
Did you buy a csl? You've just shown your total ignorance to what car manufacturers are there for. Money. The csl which was "a step in the right direction" clearly wasn't, because it was a sales disaster compared to the normal car or the M5.
Problems with the CSL:- the deeply terrible SMG
- it was more expensive than a normal M3 for less equipment.
Had it had a standard manual 'box and been cheaper than the normal M3, or had it BEEN the normal M3, with the non-CSL additional equipment on the options list, I rather think it would have sold better.
RoverP6B said:
Problems with the CSL:
- the deeply terrible SMG
- it was more expensive than a normal M3 for less equipment.
Had it had a standard manual 'box and been cheaper than the normal M3, or had it BEEN the normal M3, with the non-CSL additional equipment on the options list, I rather think it would have sold better.
What exactly did the CSL's SMG set-up do to you that made it so deeply terrible?- the deeply terrible SMG
- it was more expensive than a normal M3 for less equipment.
Had it had a standard manual 'box and been cheaper than the normal M3, or had it BEEN the normal M3, with the non-CSL additional equipment on the options list, I rather think it would have sold better.
RoverP6B said:
Problems with the CSL:
- the deeply terrible SMG
- it was more expensive than a normal M3 for less equipment.
Had it had a standard manual 'box and been cheaper than the normal M3, or had it BEEN the normal M3, with the non-CSL additional equipment on the options list, I rather think it would have sold better.
Better phone BMW and tell them to sack their current marketing department which spend millions and millions of pounds per year getting to know the market to make the right cars and tell them to hire you instead then. Just about every M3 owner I know bought it because it was a very good compromise between fun and luxury. They didn't want something more stripped out. They quite liked the air con, nav, electric seats and so on. Even with sports cars it's why ones with a little more refinement actually sell better than cheaper ones with less refinement. Look at the 911, sells rather well despite being quite heavy compared to other "competition".- the deeply terrible SMG
- it was more expensive than a normal M3 for less equipment.
Had it had a standard manual 'box and been cheaper than the normal M3, or had it BEEN the normal M3, with the non-CSL additional equipment on the options list, I rather think it would have sold better.
4 seater, lighter cars are already out there with things like the Evora and so on, and they sell really well compared to the M3 don't they.
Deeply terrible SMG? it wasn't that bad. It was a gearbox you had to learn, and driving it once or twice was always going to leave you disappointed until you knew how to use it properly.
RoverP6B said:
The new M3 is about 330kg heavier than the E30, so it's far from the lightest. The E92 M3 is 1655kg - 490kg more than the E30. Electric heated seats and aircon in an M3? I could just about understand those in an M5, but frankly if I wanted those I'd buy a Volvo V70. The M3 is a sports car, not a luxobarge. The CSL was a step in the right direction (SMG apart) but I'd have made all the detachable panels from CF, not just the boot.
The e92 is 1580kg, the e90 is the heavier one. The e46 is still over 1500kg.An M3 is neither a sports car or a luxobarge. Why do you think it's this intensely focussed lightweight machine? I'm not sure about the e30 as finding accurate figures on it isn't easy but with all the others the M3 is the heaviest version of the base car.
What you think an M3 should be and what BMW M think it should be clearly differ.
E65Ross said:
Better phone BMW and tell them to sack their current marketing department
Yes. I have quite enough experience of dealing with marketeers to tell anyone who cares to listen that money spent on marketing and specifically market research, clinics etc is money wasted. Customer clinics result in 1980s Cadillacs: bold, audacious visions created without giving a hoot for anyone creates cars like Jaguar E-types, Lamborghini Miuras and so on. Where would McLaren be now if Bruce and later Ron Dennis had pissed a load of money away on consulting marketing men? Nowhere, that's where. There'd be no such thing as a McLaren road car. Horacio Pagani would be an unknown. Design and build a great car, do it properly (no cheap corner-cutting like in a Lotus) and send it to market.SMG - slow, clunky, hopeless as an auto and less effective than a manual at giving you control. I'd rather have had a proper sequential racing 'box than an automated manual, but the majority of the market would have preferred a normal H-pattern manual. As for stripped-out cars - have you even seen what a completely un-optioned boggo 911 looks like? I do, I know a guy who has one. 997, manual 'box, steel brakes, smallish wheels, no electric seats, no rear wiper, nothing. He says it's the better for lacking fripperies.
You know what? In the car business, the customer ISN'T always right. The customer is quite commonly a crashing moron. It's time carmakers stopped listening so much to the customers and listened more to their own instincts. Better, more memorable cars would result.
Amirhussain said:
New M3/M4 is going to come with a manual box as standard.
E65Ross said:
Just as well they're offering one in the M3 and M4 then isn't it.
Is there an echo in here? Scroll up, both of you. 
- I was talking about the future, as in after the F80/F82 (or when they facelift it, as it's not uncommon for manufacturers to remove options).
E65Ross said:
A DCT is a much better proposition than manual in a bigger saloon or GT car like the M5/6.
Agreed but I'd still choose a manual DB9/S. The latter is firmly in my "dream garage". 
I appreciate the merits of the various types of gearbox. - My Discovery is an auto and if I had a new one, I wouldn't want a manual (good job really as they don't do them any more).
E65Ross said:
Judging by what a lot say on here you'd think PH members know the market requirements better than the manufacturers! 
If that was aimed at me, I understand marketing (it's part of my job) but I don't necessarily want every engineering decision to be made based on it. RoverP6B said:
You know what? In the car business, the customer ISN'T always right. The customer is quite commonly a crashing moron. It's time carmakers stopped listening so much to the customers and listened more to their own instincts. Better, more memorable cars would result.
The customer does tend to have the money though, so regardless of what's 'right' (to your personal taste) they should continue to make cars to make them money, as they're a business, and if they don't, a competitor will, and they'll go out of business, clinging on to their 'instincts'.Also, and here's a concept for you, just because you believe in your opinion really hard, it isn't necessarily right. Cars should really be made simpler and safer for the crushing idiots that drive and crash them. I personally completely agree with you that light, basic cars are more fun and memorable, but unfortunately mate, we're not right, we're enthusiasts with tastes completely at opposites to the norm, and as much as it'd be nice for us all to be zipping around in cars that suit our tastes, we're the minority, and what we want isn't really 'right' as such, sorry.
I know there are reasons, I know there are comparisons with other BMWs, but we just can't get away from the fact that this thing weighs 2 tonnes and is huge. It's a niche car that lots of people will love, but we simply can't call it the best four door ever (as on page 1), because it weighs the same as a standard 3 series towing a Caterham :-o Respect, yes, but zero desire from me I'm afraid.
SturdyHSV said:
The customer does tend to have the money though, so regardless of what's 'right' (to your personal taste) they should continue to make cars to make them money, as they're a business, and if they don't, a competitor will, and they'll go out of business, clinging on to their 'instincts'.
Also, and here's a concept for you, just because you believe in your opinion really hard, it isn't necessarily right. Cars should really be made simpler and safer for the crushing idiots that drive and crash them. I personally completely agree with you that light, basic cars are more fun and memorable, but unfortunately mate, we're not right, we're enthusiasts with tastes completely at opposites to the norm, and as much as it'd be nice for us all to be zipping around in cars that suit our tastes, we're the minority, and what we want isn't really 'right' as such, sorry.
Endlessly listening to customer feedback didn't exactly do GM or Chrysler much good financially, did it? It took some serious vision on Bob Lutz's part to pull GM out of the sAlso, and here's a concept for you, just because you believe in your opinion really hard, it isn't necessarily right. Cars should really be made simpler and safer for the crushing idiots that drive and crash them. I personally completely agree with you that light, basic cars are more fun and memorable, but unfortunately mate, we're not right, we're enthusiasts with tastes completely at opposites to the norm, and as much as it'd be nice for us all to be zipping around in cars that suit our tastes, we're the minority, and what we want isn't really 'right' as such, sorry.
t. No customer clinic could have come up with the latest RWD Cadillacs (manual gearboxes and all SHOCK HORROR!), for example. Perhaps making cars more difficult to crash, by endowing them with less power, better handling and much better visibility would also reduce the number of wrecked exotics around. Putting an investment banker to whom nobody has ever said no into the driving seat of a 2-ton 600bhp (F10 M5s that have been dyno'd apparently usually report a lot more than the very conservative 550bhp official figure) pillbox and arm him with the "certain knowledge" that the systems will sort out any mistake he makes and create a false drift hero appearance is a recipe for disaster. Put him in a TVR with a massive spike on the steering wheel and he'll soon become a better driver, or remove himself from the equation...johnpeat said:
It's biggest problem, by far and away, is that it's MASSIVE - it's almost 7-series sized and no matter how clever it gets, it cannot fit it's bulk into the 'round hole' all that tech is aiming for.
The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
It is huge, and I wouldn't want to hustle it quickly along country roads. Great on fast A roads though.The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
johnpeat said:
It's biggest problem, by far and away, is that it's MASSIVE - it's almost 7-series sized and no matter how clever it gets, it cannot fit it's bulk into the 'round hole' all that tech is aiming for.
The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
2 things - well done on COMPLETELY missing the point of the M5. Secondly, you say "It's almost 7 series size" as if it's something new. As if the original M5 wasn't almost as big as the original 7 series. The original M5 was also heavier than the base 7 series. The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
RoverP6B said:
Yes. I have quite enough experience of dealing with marketeers to tell anyone who cares to listen that money spent on marketing and specifically market research, clinics etc is money wasted. Customer clinics result in 1980s Cadillacs: bold, audacious visions created without giving a hoot for anyone creates cars like Jaguar E-types, Lamborghini Miuras and so on. Where would McLaren be now if Bruce and later Ron Dennis had pissed a load of money away on consulting marketing men? Nowhere, that's where. There'd be no such thing as a McLaren road car. Horacio Pagani would be an unknown. Design and build a great car, do it properly (no cheap corner-cutting like in a Lotus) and send it to market.
SMG - slow, clunky, hopeless as an auto and less effective than a manual at giving you control. I'd rather have had a proper sequential racing 'box than an automated manual, but the majority of the market would have preferred a normal H-pattern manual. As for stripped-out cars - have you even seen what a completely un-optioned boggo 911 looks like? I do, I know a guy who has one. 997, manual 'box, steel brakes, smallish wheels, no electric seats, no rear wiper, nothing. He says it's the better for lacking fripperies.
You know what? In the car business, the customer ISN'T always right. The customer is quite commonly a crashing moron. It's time carmakers stopped listening so much to the customers and listened more to their own instincts. Better, more memorable cars would result.
I have a few different cars, all with different gearboxes .. These include a CSL and a light weight 911 . SMG - slow, clunky, hopeless as an auto and less effective than a manual at giving you control. I'd rather have had a proper sequential racing 'box than an automated manual, but the majority of the market would have preferred a normal H-pattern manual. As for stripped-out cars - have you even seen what a completely un-optioned boggo 911 looks like? I do, I know a guy who has one. 997, manual 'box, steel brakes, smallish wheels, no electric seats, no rear wiper, nothing. He says it's the better for lacking fripperies.
You know what? In the car business, the customer ISN'T always right. The customer is quite commonly a crashing moron. It's time carmakers stopped listening so much to the customers and listened more to their own instincts. Better, more memorable cars would result.
The SMG box is I agree, rubbish as an auto, but who drives a CSL in auto? Personally I love the SMG in the CSL and think it adds to the character of the car ... IMHO it would not be particularly any better or more enjoyable with a manual , the box suits the car well ........ Of course the reverse is true with my 911, it would not be the car it is with a sporto box ( which the car could be optioned with back in the 60's / 70's ... Again an automated manual )
Horses for courses, but with the CSL I now know BMW got it right ( ironically it was the thought of the SMG box and reading the uninformed comments about the box that had put me off buying a CSL over the years )
E65Ross said:
johnpeat said:
It's biggest problem, by far and away, is that it's MASSIVE - it's almost 7-series sized and no matter how clever it gets, it cannot fit it's bulk into the 'round hole' all that tech is aiming for.
The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
2 things - well done on COMPLETELY missing the point of the M5. Secondly, you say "It's almost 7 series size" as if it's something new. As if the original M5 wasn't almost as big as the original 7 series. The original M5 was also heavier than the base 7 series. The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
Is this the same 1M people on PH dismissed and hated quite badly when it was first shown?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Amirhussain said:
E65Ross said:
johnpeat said:
It's biggest problem, by far and away, is that it's MASSIVE - it's almost 7-series sized and no matter how clever it gets, it cannot fit it's bulk into the 'round hole' all that tech is aiming for.
The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
2 things - well done on COMPLETELY missing the point of the M5. Secondly, you say "It's almost 7 series size" as if it's something new. As if the original M5 wasn't almost as big as the original 7 series. The original M5 was also heavier than the base 7 series. The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
Is this the same 1M people on PH dismissed and hated quite badly when it was first shown?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
RobM77 said:
Amirhussain said:
E65Ross said:
johnpeat said:
It's biggest problem, by far and away, is that it's MASSIVE - it's almost 7-series sized and no matter how clever it gets, it cannot fit it's bulk into the 'round hole' all that tech is aiming for.
The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
2 things - well done on COMPLETELY missing the point of the M5. Secondly, you say "It's almost 7 series size" as if it's something new. As if the original M5 wasn't almost as big as the original 7 series. The original M5 was also heavier than the base 7 series. The 'serious' M drivers all drive the 1M now anyway tho - so this remains as a way for people to waste money further up the model range
Is this the same 1M people on PH dismissed and hated quite badly when it was first shown?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
1. The link I posted is wrong
Should be this one;http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&...
2. The point I was trying to make is that it makes me laugh when a car receives so much hate and criticism when its launched, that it isn't better than the car it is replacing, when the car it is replacing got the same treatment when it was launched.
E.g. E60 M5 was criticised by some for being too shouty and ugly compared to the E39 M5, I disagree, when you have 507 BHP 5 litre V10 under your bonnet, who gives a f
k about subtlety!People criticize the F10 M5 for being too tame compared to the E60 M5, but I don't see anyone talking about the plus points such as better range, less complicated, quicker etc. A better car overall.
When the time comes to replace the F10 M5, watch how people w
k over it, and whatever the replacement will be like, it won't be better than the F10.Also the way some people go on about the E39 is hilarious, like somehow its the greatest car ever made and everything after it was a downgrade and can't stack up to it.
Don't get it wrong, I like the E39, but BMW have moved on.
As much as I like the idea of the E60 M5 (take big repmobile, fit with stroked-out version of then-current F1 engine), the E39 IS pretty much the greatest car BMW has ever made. The F10 isn't fit to lick its exhaust tips. It's trying to be a 7-series-come-Nissan-GTR and ends up being a jack of all trades and master of none but going fast in a straight line. People dare to take the piss out of Corvettes etc as straight-line machines (which is not at all true) yet leap to defend the far heavier, less agile BMW. I know the E39 was no Lotus Seven, but it is physically smaller, its power more manageable, its throttle response that much more instantaneous, its sound more natural, and for my money Joji Nagashima's styling is masterly and only gets better with age. The chaps at my local BMW dealership were near unanimous in agreement that the E39 range were the best cars they have ever had to sell. Having bought my own (not an M5!), I asked them what to replace it with however many years down the line, when the supply of immaculate low-mileage examples has dried up. One senior salesman suggested "Cry?"...
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