RE: PH Blog: back from the magistrates
Discussion
To prosecute an innocent person on the basis on facts that are untrue and not investigated properly? If CH hadn't turned up he would have been wrongly convicted. Luckily the summons didn't go missing in the post. It's maybe less serious for a missing insurance certificate. But if we acquiesce to tolerate a certain level of wrongful prosecutions for 'the greater good', how about when H M government start applying it to more serious crimes... Assault, GBH, murder, fraud? The court could convicted you in your absence of murder on the basis of a dodgy database check and you'd be locked up for life, even though you're innocent and without having a fair trial! You'd then have to prove you didn't do it, from the inside, and of course it's much harder to prove a negative. It seems unjust and undemocratic. Innocent until proven guilty, and guilty provided you've had a fair trial... -.-
No insurance, you 'could' face a fixed penalty notice
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicl...
No tax, you WILL get an £80 fine and 'could' get your car clamped or taken away
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicl...
Which is the worst of the two and should be getting the automatic fine at least?
Why not the same punishment for both?
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicl...
No tax, you WILL get an £80 fine and 'could' get your car clamped or taken away
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicl...
Which is the worst of the two and should be getting the automatic fine at least?
Why not the same punishment for both?
ringweekends said:
I had a similar situation recently.
The Mighty Mi16 was seized and impounded, leaving me stood on the side of the road, because it wasn't on the database and the officer that pulled me wouldn't accept my explanation of my insurance arrangements.
£150 to spring the Mi, half an hour in a magistrates court 2 months later to present the evidence and guess what - not guilty.
And was any reimbursement offered for transport costs to get home, release fee, time off work, petrol costs, etc, etc?The Mighty Mi16 was seized and impounded, leaving me stood on the side of the road, because it wasn't on the database and the officer that pulled me wouldn't accept my explanation of my insurance arrangements.
£150 to spring the Mi, half an hour in a magistrates court 2 months later to present the evidence and guess what - not guilty.
Chris Harris said:
Bureaucracy is intrinsically imperfect. We all know that. How you choose to deal with the ups and downs of living within such a system probably determines your day-to-day happiness and blood pressure.
Me? I’m instinctively aggressive and angry. Ask anyone that knows me.
That means I can find irritation in virtually anything: from the coldness of the bog-seat to the vague whiff of radio noise that just reaches the window of the room I often work in when there’s a light north-easterly. Even accusations of being a troll when all you’ve done is directly report something that happened to you that morning can be viewed as potential flash points.
I have to take the long view, otherwise I am probably incompatible with any kind of society.
Am I happy that today cost me half a day? No.
But then again on Monday the local tip accepted two car loads of household rubbish when I was supposed to be limited to just two black sacks. And three blokes smiled and chatted with me as they helped unload it.
I could try and recover the £23 of fuel and a day’s time, but the process would make me angry and ultimately yield nothing. I went today knowing that I was innocent, but still expecting to have some unfair court costs slapped on me – instead a polite man apologised for the situation, explained what had happened in completely unpatronising terms and when I left the building the sun was shining.
I’ve had better days, and I’ve had worse.
Is this newfangled Insurance Database perfect? Not by a long chalk, and as someone who’s always in pre-prod test cars and borrowed metal, I suspect I’ll fall foul of it again and be less sympathetic next time.
Anyone who’s had to deal with an accident with an uninsured driver will confirm that removing those cars/people from the road is a worthy cause. Automation is the best way to do that. Coppers should replace speed cameras, but they can't be expected to sort this problem.
FYI - I am testing a wooden toilet seat, initial results are favourable.
You're unlikely to find people supporting that view here. The intention behind such a system will be to catch and stop uninsured drivers, I have no doubt about that. You'll read lots of nonsense here about 'Big Brother' and 'revenue generation', from people who think being cynical = being clever and savvy. What matters is the way such a system is created from the initial intention. The primary focus should be to avoid innocent people ending up in court or going through avoidable processes (I'm assuming you weren't awkward and put yourself in court?). If I were designing the system, that is one of the most important measures of whether it worked or not. Me? I’m instinctively aggressive and angry. Ask anyone that knows me.
That means I can find irritation in virtually anything: from the coldness of the bog-seat to the vague whiff of radio noise that just reaches the window of the room I often work in when there’s a light north-easterly. Even accusations of being a troll when all you’ve done is directly report something that happened to you that morning can be viewed as potential flash points.
I have to take the long view, otherwise I am probably incompatible with any kind of society.
Am I happy that today cost me half a day? No.
But then again on Monday the local tip accepted two car loads of household rubbish when I was supposed to be limited to just two black sacks. And three blokes smiled and chatted with me as they helped unload it.
I could try and recover the £23 of fuel and a day’s time, but the process would make me angry and ultimately yield nothing. I went today knowing that I was innocent, but still expecting to have some unfair court costs slapped on me – instead a polite man apologised for the situation, explained what had happened in completely unpatronising terms and when I left the building the sun was shining.
I’ve had better days, and I’ve had worse.
Is this newfangled Insurance Database perfect? Not by a long chalk, and as someone who’s always in pre-prod test cars and borrowed metal, I suspect I’ll fall foul of it again and be less sympathetic next time.
Anyone who’s had to deal with an accident with an uninsured driver will confirm that removing those cars/people from the road is a worthy cause. Automation is the best way to do that. Coppers should replace speed cameras, but they can't be expected to sort this problem.
FYI - I am testing a wooden toilet seat, initial results are favourable.
The information and technology exits to avoid your scenario. If in doubt the DVLA should have a structure where they can speak to the MIB (not just the sometimes-wrong website) who can find out for certain if one is insured or not. This may incur a cost, but so does dragging you to court, and the budren of evidence lies with the prosecution who are obligated to make reasonable enquiries.
You should claim expenses.
10 Pence Short said:
Couldn't Mr. Harris have avoided appearing in person, and the cost of doing so, by pleading not guilty by post and supplying his defence (probably one side of a4 and a copy of the insurance certificate) by the same method?
AIUI, paper certs aren't seen as evidence. You can take out insurance, get the cert posted to you, then cancel (does the 'within 14 days' apply?). Uninsured but in possession of certificate saying otherwise...caziques said:
Yep, parts of Oz, New Zealand and South Africa. Personal injury stuff in NZ is covered by some fuel duty and most of the "tax disc". If you buy third party insurance as well it covers up to 2,500 pounds of damage to your car if someone else hits you who isn't insured. I have to say it's a far less stressful situation.
Of course, Britain being Britain, after the first few articles on the Daily Mail/Mumsnet when a 17-year-old puts an Evo in a tree, we'd end up with Australian-style limits on what you can drive in the first X years after passing your test. In Australia it's "no turbos or V-8s"*- the existence of an eight-cylinder engine is off the radar for much of the BRAKE crowd, so it would probably be something worse. Limited to n/a and no more than 1.4 litres, anyone?- Of course this is stupid in itself, as something like a Daihatsu Copen with a 700cc turbo triple is considered to be "dangerously quick"....
Chris Harris said:
FYI - I am testing a wooden toilet seat, initial results are favourable.
Spare us the test-drive video for that one Chris... 
I'm about to have to retax my SORNed (but insured and MOTed) GT4 so that it can go up for sale. I think that if I hadn't read the various discussions on here about continuous insurance and changes to SORN process I probably would have fallen foul of SOMETHING in terms of tax/MOT or insurance. :S
If a scrote has a car that is not in his name as probably stolen and with wrong number plates, not regd to his address and not insured - who do the dvla write to and send the fine to??
And Chris I would not have a problem going to court but hot damn NO WAY would I like going to WALES!!!!!!!!!!!
And Chris I would not have a problem going to court but hot damn NO WAY would I like going to WALES!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't agree with CH on this. The fact that some people do things contrary to society's rules should never allow the state or its agents to infringe the liberty of the innocent.
It isn't right that he has to answer to the courts for something he hasn't done, simply because uninsured drivers exist. Else I hope he'll be equally happy to take the noose, whilst entirely innocent, simply because - bigger picture - it's important that people are dissuaded from committing murder.
It isn't right that he has to answer to the courts for something he hasn't done, simply because uninsured drivers exist. Else I hope he'll be equally happy to take the noose, whilst entirely innocent, simply because - bigger picture - it's important that people are dissuaded from committing murder.
Any criminal who wants to get away from paying insurance/tax/mot would just copy an identical cars plate, then they can regularly check the ask mid to check regularly that the car is covered so not to get pulled by an ANPR and as long as they don't do anything supid and the car looks road worthy the chance of being pulled by the fuzz is slim.
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