RE: Lotus announces partnership with Mansory
Discussion
The trouble is Frimley111R, that for some of us, what Colin Chapman achieved on very little was part of what made Lotus so remarkable. It's clear that like the "smoke and mirrors' Formula 1 team, and all the other Lotus branded racing efforts, to the vaguely knowledgeable are simply fluff. You as a marketing guru, see and appreciate the Bahar genius, I as a retired manufacturer see it as a route to oblivion .
It really annoys me that within the last twelve months that our government has ploughed eleven million Pounds of British tax payer money into this obvious folly.
I also find it very hard to believe that any company making an allegedly non profitable product ( the Elise ) would continue to do so over so many years, simply, where did the money come from, I don't believe the consultancy propped the whole thing up for more than a decade, especially considering that Lotus Engineering was not even good enough for Bahar to use in the design of the new range of products ?
Mansory, someone suggested it was their genius in carbon fibre that made them a useful partner, but what have Lotus been doing all these years, making carbon racing car parts and making glass fibre cars, has all that expertise been so lost that you have to go to some modern day "Richard Grant", don't Lotus even make the bespoke parts for the racing Evora's ?
There is also such a whiff of dishonesty in way that Bahar plays the gullible press, for example the much talked about Lotus designed modular V8 engine, which was so very clever it could be a V6 or an in-line four, and then the truth emerges, it's an old ex-DTM racing engine project, which like the current F1 Team, has nothing to do with Lotus at all, other than funding. As such, the engine is no more Lotus than the immediately available Lexus engine originally shown in the "Paris Five", why would Lotus ditch a long term association with giant Toyota, to take much more time and money to go with a relatively tiny German outfit, a much cleverer friend of mine suggested ( I thought rather unkindly ) "accounting practices" ?
It really annoys me that within the last twelve months that our government has ploughed eleven million Pounds of British tax payer money into this obvious folly.
I also find it very hard to believe that any company making an allegedly non profitable product ( the Elise ) would continue to do so over so many years, simply, where did the money come from, I don't believe the consultancy propped the whole thing up for more than a decade, especially considering that Lotus Engineering was not even good enough for Bahar to use in the design of the new range of products ?
Mansory, someone suggested it was their genius in carbon fibre that made them a useful partner, but what have Lotus been doing all these years, making carbon racing car parts and making glass fibre cars, has all that expertise been so lost that you have to go to some modern day "Richard Grant", don't Lotus even make the bespoke parts for the racing Evora's ?
There is also such a whiff of dishonesty in way that Bahar plays the gullible press, for example the much talked about Lotus designed modular V8 engine, which was so very clever it could be a V6 or an in-line four, and then the truth emerges, it's an old ex-DTM racing engine project, which like the current F1 Team, has nothing to do with Lotus at all, other than funding. As such, the engine is no more Lotus than the immediately available Lexus engine originally shown in the "Paris Five", why would Lotus ditch a long term association with giant Toyota, to take much more time and money to go with a relatively tiny German outfit, a much cleverer friend of mine suggested ( I thought rather unkindly ) "accounting practices" ?
andy_s said:
Mansory aren't designing cars from scratch though - are they? It's a customisation house, for add on bits o bling and some styling showcase runs - Lotus have done this for years anyway haven't they, the odd Harrods LE and the like. This is no different except putting it in the hands of people who are probably better known than Lotus in certain market segments.
I'm suggesting that that's what Lotus needs. For all the tangible complaints about the Evora's build quality and packaging, there were five that it's ugly. The Elise is hardly a stunning looking car either, in any form exactly maybe the mk1 Exige. The new designs are nothing particularly special either, IMO. They aren't bad, but neither are they outstanding. It looks to me they're trying to 'youth up' their image a bit, precisely to get away from the beardie, pipe smoking, shed dweller image they have.
Judging by many of the comments on this thread, they're not wrong either!
If you dont like the mansory version, don't buy it and keep it stock!
I love that chrome red evora - looks awesome! :-D
Judging by many of the comments on this thread, they're not wrong either!
If you dont like the mansory version, don't buy it and keep it stock!
I love that chrome red evora - looks awesome! :-D
I don't think the complaints are about the idea or blinged up special editions as such (well some of them might be, but mine aren't). It's more the worry that it's indicative of the direction that Lotus want to take their "standard" cars in.
Having said that, the S2 Exige always looked far too blingy to me anyway; the daft wing will just be naked carbon fibre and cost five times as much, in the future.
Having said that, the S2 Exige always looked far too blingy to me anyway; the daft wing will just be naked carbon fibre and cost five times as much, in the future.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 27th March 10:10
Having seen an Evora GTE in person, I can't fault the craftmanship of Mansory's carbon panels. It's a stunning car.
Fairly obviously any customisation program offered by an OEM will allow the boundaries of taste to be pushed, but that's more telling of the customers than anything else. I assume Lotus would be able to draw a line on anything too outrageous whilst still accomodating most requests (I remember a similar comment on one of these Megafactory type programs at a luxury marque).
The most important thing for me is that it may give Lotus that much more of a fighting chance of being here in the future, in whatever capacity that might be. As much as I question their direction at times, it would be very sad indeed to see a 'Saab-esque' Top Gear feature looking back at the history of another lost iconic manufacturer.
Fairly obviously any customisation program offered by an OEM will allow the boundaries of taste to be pushed, but that's more telling of the customers than anything else. I assume Lotus would be able to draw a line on anything too outrageous whilst still accomodating most requests (I remember a similar comment on one of these Megafactory type programs at a luxury marque).
The most important thing for me is that it may give Lotus that much more of a fighting chance of being here in the future, in whatever capacity that might be. As much as I question their direction at times, it would be very sad indeed to see a 'Saab-esque' Top Gear feature looking back at the history of another lost iconic manufacturer.
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
I wonder just how much money DB has spent on not developing just one halo model to announce, build, deliver to market and start generating revenue? I wonder how much time and money has gone instead on splitting resources on 5 models and creating news fluff?
Well if Proton had stated that they were willing to fund another few years of R&D with next to no revenue generation there is nothing especially wrong with that approach; or at least there wasn't before Proton were sold to someone who might want a shorter-term profit. DonkeyApple said:
True, but the question is whether Lotus as a company was ever large enough to commence 5 projects from scratch pretty much simultaneously? When you look at the numbers, both financial and re head count, it is a fair arguement that focussing solely on one new model is probably the wise approach?
Good question, to which I don't know the answer. The "cars" division has always been a smallish part of the Lotus company but I haven't hard much from the new management on what they intend to do with the (hugely profitable, IIRC) engineering division. Maybe they're moving people from there over to cars, although that would seem a crazy thing to do to me. Captain Muppet said:
PascalBuyens said:
... and then to hear that they want to scrap the type of cars that has been keeping them alive for the past ten years....
One of the five cars they announced was the new Elise. Quite how this is "scrapping" the Elise I'm not sure, seems more like committing to build another one to me.Their plans seem to be to expand in to new markets, not to move in to new markets. It's a very important distinction.
Captain Muppet said:
One of the five cars they announced was the new Elise. Quite how this is "scrapping" the Elise I'm not sure, seems more like committing to build another one to me.
Initial indications were that it was to be a very different sort of car - in the same sense that a BMW MINI isn't really the same sort of thing as a classic Mini. Since then there has been some backpedalling, so it's not clear what kind of car they are now planning to deliver - it seems likely that it will be heavier and more ordinary, but we'll have to wait and see.Mansory is really the company that taste forget. Completely at odds with most of the cars in modifies. Having said that they have survived and keep showing cars so there is a market for that kind of styling, just not big enough to keep Lotus afloat.
That red Evora isnt bad though, so this is probably just an exercise to get some extra column inches.
That red Evora isnt bad though, so this is probably just an exercise to get some extra column inches.
PascalBuyens said:
The new Elise has nothing to do with the Elise as it's been up until now. It'll be a completely different type of car. To me the Elise was and will always be an S1. A gokart for the track/road. A 320hp/1100kg car isn't exactly going to be the "point and go car" that the 700kg-ish Elise used to be... Faster, yeah, maybe... but as pure as the S1... Nope, it's not even a convertible.
Problem is you can't build an S1 anymore, it wouldn't comply to all the legislation since then. The closest thing to it is the Elise CR, which people then say is underpowered.I think Lotus bashing is just the new national pass time. Even when they do something people have previously said they want all people do is moan.
DonkeyApple said:
True, but the question is whether Lotus as a company was ever large enough to commence 5 projects from scratch pretty much simultaneously? When you look at the numbers, both financial and re head count, it is a fair arguement that focussing solely on one new model is probably the wise approach?
If you do a bit of Googling regarding the VVA architecture that underpins the Evora and some of the new cars, you'll see it's not as bad as you imagine.Take 1 Esprit (Longitudinal V8), change the rear subframe and some body panels and you have an Elan (Transverse V6).
OK, that's a very crude way of describing it, but it gets the point across. It's basically 2 complete new cars then variations on a theme.
crofty1984 said:
DonkeyApple said:
True, but the question is whether Lotus as a company was ever large enough to commence 5 projects from scratch pretty much simultaneously? When you look at the numbers, both financial and re head count, it is a fair arguement that focussing solely on one new model is probably the wise approach?
If you do a bit of Googling regarding the VVA architecture that underpins the Evora and some of the new cars, you'll see it's not as bad as you imagine.Take 1 Esprit (Longitudinal V8), change the rear subframe and some body panels and you have an Elan (Transverse V6).
OK, that's a very crude way of describing it, but it gets the point across. It's basically 2 complete new cars then variations on a theme.
I'm sure that engineering wise they have strong synergies, but the angle I was looking at this from is that each model must have its own team at the top to focus 100% on their specific product, ensuring that the slot for it in the market is perfectly defined and the product fits perfectly into that bracket etc.
I have a feeling that all 5 are run by the same team and I don't believe it possible for one moment that a single team can be doing the work needed to ensure the right products in the right market sectors etc.
evil_dr_fish said:
IIRC DB brought over half a billion quid's worth of investment with him. I suspect they're not overly concerned about development funds! 
I suspect you aren't too close to Lotus then! He might have agreed £500m of funding but that's not the same as having it sitting in the bank account... they are certainly not awash with cash right now.Turbo Harry said:
(little bit of background for those wondering where the new cars are)
Lotus has a 50:50 chance of survival under its new ownership, claims Dany Bahar, the company's CEO.Last month, the Malaysian Government sold Proton (Lotus' parent company) to local private investors who are doing their due diligence to the company.Talking to Evo.co.uk, Bahar said that he was taken aback when the deal was announced. According to regulations in Malaysia following the sale, the company went into a 3 month 'lockdown' period.
During this period, all activities (and some production) in the company is stopped or temporarily halted.Therefore Lotus' development plans for five new models that were unveiled at the Paris Motor Show 18 months ago have now been suspended. The delays in development will cause the cars' respective launches to be delayed as well.Bahar is not sure whether the new owners will be interested in retaining Lotus. He says he flies every week to Malaysia to talk to the new investors and to persuade them to keep on the project.
"This difficult period for Lotus finishes at the end of March and that's when we will know then whether DRB-Hicom will want to continue with our business plan," Bahar said. "I really hope they will but I cannot call it at the moment, it's still 50:50."
This is what I find really confusing. During 'lockdown' they can only carry out normal business which doesn't include the development of new cars - surely that is normal business for a car company? However during this so called lockdown they can announce a new partnership? That just doesn't make sense.... Although with Bahar at the helm very little at Lotus has sadly made any sense Lotus has a 50:50 chance of survival under its new ownership, claims Dany Bahar, the company's CEO.Last month, the Malaysian Government sold Proton (Lotus' parent company) to local private investors who are doing their due diligence to the company.Talking to Evo.co.uk, Bahar said that he was taken aback when the deal was announced. According to regulations in Malaysia following the sale, the company went into a 3 month 'lockdown' period.
During this period, all activities (and some production) in the company is stopped or temporarily halted.Therefore Lotus' development plans for five new models that were unveiled at the Paris Motor Show 18 months ago have now been suspended. The delays in development will cause the cars' respective launches to be delayed as well.Bahar is not sure whether the new owners will be interested in retaining Lotus. He says he flies every week to Malaysia to talk to the new investors and to persuade them to keep on the project.
"This difficult period for Lotus finishes at the end of March and that's when we will know then whether DRB-Hicom will want to continue with our business plan," Bahar said. "I really hope they will but I cannot call it at the moment, it's still 50:50."
PhilipAlfa said:
Turbo Harry said:
(little bit of background for those wondering where the new cars are)
Lotus has a 50:50 chance of survival under its new ownership, claims Dany Bahar, the company's CEO.Last month, the Malaysian Government sold Proton (Lotus' parent company) to local private investors who are doing their due diligence to the company.Talking to Evo.co.uk, Bahar said that he was taken aback when the deal was announced. According to regulations in Malaysia following the sale, the company went into a 3 month 'lockdown' period.
During this period, all activities (and some production) in the company is stopped or temporarily halted.Therefore Lotus' development plans for five new models that were unveiled at the Paris Motor Show 18 months ago have now been suspended. The delays in development will cause the cars' respective launches to be delayed as well.Bahar is not sure whether the new owners will be interested in retaining Lotus. He says he flies every week to Malaysia to talk to the new investors and to persuade them to keep on the project.
"This difficult period for Lotus finishes at the end of March and that's when we will know then whether DRB-Hicom will want to continue with our business plan," Bahar said. "I really hope they will but I cannot call it at the moment, it's still 50:50."
This is what I find really confusing. During 'lockdown' they can only carry out normal business which doesn't include the development of new cars - surely that is normal business for a car company? However during this so called lockdown they can announce a new partnership? That just doesn't make sense.... Although with Bahar at the helm very little at Lotus has sadly made any sense Lotus has a 50:50 chance of survival under its new ownership, claims Dany Bahar, the company's CEO.Last month, the Malaysian Government sold Proton (Lotus' parent company) to local private investors who are doing their due diligence to the company.Talking to Evo.co.uk, Bahar said that he was taken aback when the deal was announced. According to regulations in Malaysia following the sale, the company went into a 3 month 'lockdown' period.
During this period, all activities (and some production) in the company is stopped or temporarily halted.Therefore Lotus' development plans for five new models that were unveiled at the Paris Motor Show 18 months ago have now been suspended. The delays in development will cause the cars' respective launches to be delayed as well.Bahar is not sure whether the new owners will be interested in retaining Lotus. He says he flies every week to Malaysia to talk to the new investors and to persuade them to keep on the project.
"This difficult period for Lotus finishes at the end of March and that's when we will know then whether DRB-Hicom will want to continue with our business plan," Bahar said. "I really hope they will but I cannot call it at the moment, it's still 50:50."
PascalBuyens said:
Captain Muppet said:
PascalBuyens said:
... and then to hear that they want to scrap the type of cars that has been keeping them alive for the past ten years....
One of the five cars they announced was the new Elise. Quite how this is "scrapping" the Elise I'm not sure, seems more like committing to build another one to me.Their plans seem to be to expand in to new markets, not to move in to new markets. It's a very important distinction.
If the Elise will always be the S1 to you then you are already a decade out of touch with Lotus. I have an S1, I love it, but I also loved driving an S2 Elise S and Elise R.
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