RE: PH Blog: why base-spec 911s rule
Discussion
thirsty said:
For anyone that has ever visited a sports car forecourt, all the new cars sitting there a loaded up with goodies to bump up the profit margins. If you want a base spec car, you almost surely will have to order it.
For most of us mortals however, we purchase our toys second hand and have to really search what's out there for what we want.
For most of us mortals however, we purchase our toys second hand and have to really search what's out there for what we want.
Cotic said:
Almost certainly not.
The BRZ/86 twins will have narrow rubber, but I'll bet my hat they'll grip into corners better than a wide shodden(?) 3-series.
Wasn't the whole point of the BRZ/86 that they weren't over tyred so you could move the rear around even with the modest power available?The BRZ/86 twins will have narrow rubber, but I'll bet my hat they'll grip into corners better than a wide shodden(?) 3-series.
A good chassis will make the car more controlable at the limit rather than give you outright grip surely tyres are the biggest single factor when it comes to grip?
Paul, I couldn't agree more.
Three weeks ago I went to Scotland with some mates and drove three different 911's (and an NSX and an MX5).
The regular 993 was lovely, it felt really torquey and nice on damp Scottish roads, though clearly without the ultimate pace and grip of the more modern stuff.
The 996 GT3 was a (outrageous) joy in the dry, but really too lively on British roads in the wet - it needed some respect and caution for sure.
However - the 'poverty' spec. base 997 C2 was just perfect. You could give it full commitment in the dry, in the wet, and even on dodgy British roads. The grip was immense and with the suppleness of the suspension it soaked up everything and allowed you to use all the power.
On a track I'll take a GT3 (or RS) every time, on British roads standard C2 is perfect.
Three weeks ago I went to Scotland with some mates and drove three different 911's (and an NSX and an MX5).
The regular 993 was lovely, it felt really torquey and nice on damp Scottish roads, though clearly without the ultimate pace and grip of the more modern stuff.
The 996 GT3 was a (outrageous) joy in the dry, but really too lively on British roads in the wet - it needed some respect and caution for sure.
However - the 'poverty' spec. base 997 C2 was just perfect. You could give it full commitment in the dry, in the wet, and even on dodgy British roads. The grip was immense and with the suppleness of the suspension it soaked up everything and allowed you to use all the power.
On a track I'll take a GT3 (or RS) every time, on British roads standard C2 is perfect.
I know what he means but the gt3 is the pick of the 997 crop. The turbo is too soft and the gt2 was too stiff (though not tried the gt2rs). the basic 997 is nice but I prefer my 89 3.2 but would love a CS of the same era.
It would be nice if porsche produced a new mid rwd flagship car to take over from the 911 and took the 911 back to light weight rwd with no or little aids as a road/club race/track car as.it was in the early days.
It would be nice if porsche produced a new mid rwd flagship car to take over from the 911 and took the 911 back to light weight rwd with no or little aids as a road/club race/track car as.it was in the early days.
Drove a 991 C2 Cab Manual last weekend for about 150 miles .. no PASM, 19" wheels. Standard car apart from heated seats, telephone module and rear park assist.
Amazing car. 3.4 engine is very eager and willing, and more than powerful enough for UK roads.
Gearbox is much closer than usual as it's higher up. Shift quality is good, if a little detached. Shifting from 7 to 3 is not easy to get right. Apart from that, I think you will get used to it.
Pressing the SPORT button increases exhaust noise and rortiness .. I tested this many times, and yes, the exhaust note (non PSE car) becomes rortier and louder in SPORT mode. In SPORT mode, exhaust is similar in volume to 997 Gen II PSE on.
Chassis and ride was beautifully compliant. Handling was much more 'alive' than the C2S PDK with PDCC that I drove last year. You feel the car moving around much more, and for me, it is more involving, more interesting and more effort to go fast round corners. Ride on our nasty roads is really beautifully controlled. On really horribly worn sections of the M4, it jittered around a bit and felt slightly unhinged, but that's it.
Interior noise with roof up is low, really low, and about the same as the coupe. Incredible. Really incredible.
With the wind deflector in place (very neat electric deployment and retraction) and windows up at brisk motorway speeds, there's very little turbulence or wind hitting you anywhere.
Great car, even if it lists at around £81k as specced!
Amazing car. 3.4 engine is very eager and willing, and more than powerful enough for UK roads.
Gearbox is much closer than usual as it's higher up. Shift quality is good, if a little detached. Shifting from 7 to 3 is not easy to get right. Apart from that, I think you will get used to it.
Pressing the SPORT button increases exhaust noise and rortiness .. I tested this many times, and yes, the exhaust note (non PSE car) becomes rortier and louder in SPORT mode. In SPORT mode, exhaust is similar in volume to 997 Gen II PSE on.
Chassis and ride was beautifully compliant. Handling was much more 'alive' than the C2S PDK with PDCC that I drove last year. You feel the car moving around much more, and for me, it is more involving, more interesting and more effort to go fast round corners. Ride on our nasty roads is really beautifully controlled. On really horribly worn sections of the M4, it jittered around a bit and felt slightly unhinged, but that's it.
Interior noise with roof up is low, really low, and about the same as the coupe. Incredible. Really incredible.
With the wind deflector in place (very neat electric deployment and retraction) and windows up at brisk motorway speeds, there's very little turbulence or wind hitting you anywhere.
Great car, even if it lists at around £81k as specced!
I must agree with this too; my Boxster S is what many would call 'poverty spec' but it feels so much better for it. On my daily driver and when I hire cars I always have full spec as it is nice to have all the bells and whistles when pottering along.
However when I fancy a roof down blast I can honestly say my Boxster S is fantastic and always raises a smile. It isn't load ed with options, it isn't the fastest car, BUT it handles superbly, has fantastic power delivery and for fun road driving it is more than capable enough. That's not to say that it is the ultimate track car and any comments about it being hairdressers car don't bother me - the reason being is that those that make comments like that have never driven one properly and/or can't drive well enough to get the best out of it!
However when I fancy a roof down blast I can honestly say my Boxster S is fantastic and always raises a smile. It isn't load ed with options, it isn't the fastest car, BUT it handles superbly, has fantastic power delivery and for fun road driving it is more than capable enough. That's not to say that it is the ultimate track car and any comments about it being hairdressers car don't bother me - the reason being is that those that make comments like that have never driven one properly and/or can't drive well enough to get the best out of it!
snorkel sucker said:
And that is predominantly down to the smaller wheels and tyres?
What size does the Carrera 2 use that makes such a difference? Even on a base spec model they would be in the region of 245's at least? That is still quite meaty for a car with under 400bhp.
I have 225's on my BMW 130, and that seems to be just about right for its 260bhp. I know people who have got far wider tyres than that and I can only assume that the car has way more much grip than feel.
The 991 C2 comes with 285 rubber at the rear, the 997 C2 came with 265. What size does the Carrera 2 use that makes such a difference? Even on a base spec model they would be in the region of 245's at least? That is still quite meaty for a car with under 400bhp.
I have 225's on my BMW 130, and that seems to be just about right for its 260bhp. I know people who have got far wider tyres than that and I can only assume that the car has way more much grip than feel.
jamespink said:
garyhun said:
Not wishing to be a pedant but the BASE model is the Carrera, not the "S"
Why do pedants do that "not wishing to be a pedant" thing, you did, you are...No, wait, pedantic is the spelling thing, right? Not the fiddling. In that case same answer.
jamespink said:
garyhun said:
Not wishing to be a pedant but the BASE model is the Carrera, not the "S"
Why do pedants do that "not wishing to be a pedant" thing, you did, you are...
IMI A said:
Completely agree with you Garlick. Having owned a 911 turbo for the last 5 years (whilst I love it) if I had to do it all again I would definitely just buy a base spec Carrera with zero options. In fact without the kiddies it would probably be a Boxster truth be told as I found them much more fun to drive on a twisty B road with roof off on a baking hot day.
Speed and grip gets boring after a while.
Have to say, I had a bog spec 997.2 Carrera 2 for a year, and my dad has a gen 2 Turbo S, and I would have the Turbo absolutely hands down every day of the week.Speed and grip gets boring after a while.
The ride and handling weren't particarly great on my C2 (IMHO), and if purity of driving dynamics is what you want then buy an Evora, that's what I did.
The Wookie said:
Have to say, I had a bog spec 997.2 Carrera 2 for a year, and my dad has a gen 2 Turbo S, and I would have the Turbo absolutely hands down every day of the week.
The ride and handling weren't particarly great on my C2 (IMHO), and if purity of driving dynamics is what you want then buy an Evora, that's what I did.
Interesting and can't disagree with you as it's your opinion.The ride and handling weren't particarly great on my C2 (IMHO), and if purity of driving dynamics is what you want then buy an Evora, that's what I did.
Me? I didn't get on with the TS and felt it missed the poise of the lesser model(s), but hey, you've tried both and made your choice accordingly
Garlick said:
Interesting and can't disagree with you as it's your opinion.
Me? I didn't get on with the TS and felt it missed the poise of the lesser model(s), but hey, you've tried both and made your choice accordingly
I wont argue that the standard C2 had more poise and feedback than the Turbo, but I'd say that the standard rear drive models have a large amount of understeer unless you're trail braking, despite a fair amount of unsignalled ESP intervention, and the body control isn't particularly great at speed. Me? I didn't get on with the TS and felt it missed the poise of the lesser model(s), but hey, you've tried both and made your choice accordingly
Personally, I thought the Turbo had 95% of the feedback, but with better balance, better body control and blistering pace. The only things I don't like about the Turbo are the lag and the excessive road noise, even at low speed.
Personally, I went for the Evora because it rides and handles significantly better than the C2, and has more feedback. In an ideal world I'd have the chassis of the Evora with the practicality and drivetrain of the C2.
CHIEF said:
But how do you define 'Purity?'
Is it because a car has less power or less grip - I'm not so sure.
Whilst you couldn't argue a 997 Turbo has 'purity' what about a standard GT3?
For me that is a proper purity Porsche.
Plenty of na power, stripped of excess weight and 2wd.
Agree completely. I had a 997 C2S and wanted something more pure and 'basic' and so bought my current car, a 997.1 GT3. Funnily enough I have been thinking lately where to go after the GT3, and there aren't really that many options, the GT3 is just perfection for me personally. So have been toying with the idea of a base 991 Carrera (not S), but I don't see myself carrying through with that. Is it because a car has less power or less grip - I'm not so sure.
Whilst you couldn't argue a 997 Turbo has 'purity' what about a standard GT3?
For me that is a proper purity Porsche.
Plenty of na power, stripped of excess weight and 2wd.
Heres some contraversy for you
I want to love the 911, i really do, but i cant.
Every time i consider buying one, i sit in it and find it too german. In the world of a kitchen I am sure its a perfect scalpel knife, but in the real world I want character and the beetle has none.
It is pure, it is well built. But there is just something missing......a soul
I wanted a 996 Carrera but 30% of them have had rebuilt engines, if that was a Toyota it would of been all over the news at 10. There is no excuse for that.
I will probably give in one day and buy one as there is nothing else left to choose.
where am i going wrong ? what am i missing
I want to love the 911, i really do, but i cant.
Every time i consider buying one, i sit in it and find it too german. In the world of a kitchen I am sure its a perfect scalpel knife, but in the real world I want character and the beetle has none.
It is pure, it is well built. But there is just something missing......a soul
I wanted a 996 Carrera but 30% of them have had rebuilt engines, if that was a Toyota it would of been all over the news at 10. There is no excuse for that.
I will probably give in one day and buy one as there is nothing else left to choose.
where am i going wrong ? what am i missing
xkrG said:
Heres some contraversy for you
I want to love the 911, i really do, but i cant.
Every time i consider buying one, i sit in it and find it too german. In the world of a kitchen I am sure its a perfect scalpel knife, but in the real world I want character and the beetle has none.
It is pure, it is well built. But there is just something missing......a soul
I wanted a 996 Carrera but 30% of them have had rebuilt engines, if that was a Toyota it would of been all over the news at 10. There is no excuse for that.
I will probably give in one day and buy one as there is nothing else left to choose.
where am i going wrong ? what am i missing
For this you need to go old school. 3.2 Carrera the latest. No power steering or abs brakes. Faily light, no driver aids and the most tactile car I have ever driven. I want to love the 911, i really do, but i cant.
Every time i consider buying one, i sit in it and find it too german. In the world of a kitchen I am sure its a perfect scalpel knife, but in the real world I want character and the beetle has none.
It is pure, it is well built. But there is just something missing......a soul
I wanted a 996 Carrera but 30% of them have had rebuilt engines, if that was a Toyota it would of been all over the news at 10. There is no excuse for that.
I will probably give in one day and buy one as there is nothing else left to choose.
where am i going wrong ? what am i missing
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