RE: PH Blog: why base-spec 911s rule
Discussion
binnerboy said:
if you want to have fun without losing your licence due to speed (dangerous driving is another matter entirely) get a morris minor, drifts roundabouts at less than 30 mph in the wet and drum brakes require planning !
It’s true the less power RWD the more fun can be had, especially with narrow tyres in this day and age!!!Great for track days in your FAST GREAT GRIPPING CARS!! But most of the time we are on mundane school trips and off to work... Which leaves us with the odd round about to have fun!!???????Wills2 said:
xkrG said:
Heres some contraversy for you
I want to love the 911, i really do, but i cant.
Every time i consider buying one, i sit in it and find it too german. In the world of a kitchen I am sure its a perfect scalpel knife, but in the real world I want character and the beetle has none.
It is pure, it is well built. But there is just something missing......a soul
I wanted a 996 Carrera but 30% of them have had rebuilt engines, if that was a Toyota it would of been all over the news at 10. There is no excuse for that.
I will probably give in one day and buy one as there is nothing else left to choose.
where am i going wrong ? what am i missing
Everything, a 911 is a very soulful car, it talks to you through the steering and seat base gets annoyed at sloppy driving kicking, bucking and bobing when you are hamfisted, but is wonderful when you get it right.I want to love the 911, i really do, but i cant.
Every time i consider buying one, i sit in it and find it too german. In the world of a kitchen I am sure its a perfect scalpel knife, but in the real world I want character and the beetle has none.
It is pure, it is well built. But there is just something missing......a soul
I wanted a 996 Carrera but 30% of them have had rebuilt engines, if that was a Toyota it would of been all over the news at 10. There is no excuse for that.
I will probably give in one day and buy one as there is nothing else left to choose.
where am i going wrong ? what am i missing
The engine sound is unique and the howl as it passes 5k is lovely to hear and never wearing.
IMHO no other car sounds, goes or handles like a 911 I'm not saying that makes it better than the competition but it certainly makes it different.
As for the engine failures they're over stated on the internet and I'd be interested as to where you get the 30% figure from.
Take a look at the PH Forum for 996 - the first thing I saw was a survey asking who has had 1 of the 5 major problems with these cars. Many of them have had engine rebuilds. Dont even start talking about oil seal failures.
I'll still get one one day, just not sure when. I generally dont like german cars, audi, bmw etc are dull dull dull and have no character or interior flair.... buy me an Alfa instead.
Might get myself in trouble here, but...
It's all very well to talk about purity, but what do you start with in the first place, and where do you draw the line?
When I first realised I could afford a fast car I decided I'd get a 911. I drove a number, both standard and modified, built between 1969 and 1996. The impression I was left with was somewhat akin to a rollercoaster: enough power and grip to tie your internal organs in knots, and about the same level of driver involvement. (The exception was the late-80s 3.2, which I found quite satisfyingly mechanical, kind of like a scaled-down Landrover Defender)
I honestly don't get the 911 at all. The only appeal I can see is that it's the ultimate easy-does-it commuter car for people without kids. But as a sporty car that's entertaining to drive, sorry but no. Sure they're fast, but the way they deliver their performance, the characteristics of the engine, and the way they handle at the limit, can only be described as uninspiring, stodgy, and predictable.
So I ended up getting a 40 year old Ferrari Dino, originally intended to compete with the 911, and obviously such a knock-out punch that they never had to build anything like it again - the point was proven comprehensively. It cost me nearly 4 times as much as a Porsche, and realistically prevents me from being able to buy a house even when all indications point to the fact that's what I should be doing, but I don't care, because driving it is nothing short of a life-affirming experience.
Oh, and I should say, my daily driver is a bog-standard, 40bhp 1972 beetle 1300, which has the kind of purity a 911 can only dream of.
So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged - and if you're looking at a 964, do yourself a favour and test-drive a Ferrari 328 or a Lotus, Ginetta or TVR, and I promise you you'll never look twice at a 911 again.
It's all very well to talk about purity, but what do you start with in the first place, and where do you draw the line?
When I first realised I could afford a fast car I decided I'd get a 911. I drove a number, both standard and modified, built between 1969 and 1996. The impression I was left with was somewhat akin to a rollercoaster: enough power and grip to tie your internal organs in knots, and about the same level of driver involvement. (The exception was the late-80s 3.2, which I found quite satisfyingly mechanical, kind of like a scaled-down Landrover Defender)
I honestly don't get the 911 at all. The only appeal I can see is that it's the ultimate easy-does-it commuter car for people without kids. But as a sporty car that's entertaining to drive, sorry but no. Sure they're fast, but the way they deliver their performance, the characteristics of the engine, and the way they handle at the limit, can only be described as uninspiring, stodgy, and predictable.
So I ended up getting a 40 year old Ferrari Dino, originally intended to compete with the 911, and obviously such a knock-out punch that they never had to build anything like it again - the point was proven comprehensively. It cost me nearly 4 times as much as a Porsche, and realistically prevents me from being able to buy a house even when all indications point to the fact that's what I should be doing, but I don't care, because driving it is nothing short of a life-affirming experience.
Oh, and I should say, my daily driver is a bog-standard, 40bhp 1972 beetle 1300, which has the kind of purity a 911 can only dream of.
So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged - and if you're looking at a 964, do yourself a favour and test-drive a Ferrari 328 or a Lotus, Ginetta or TVR, and I promise you you'll never look twice at a 911 again.
Ftumpch said:
Might get myself in trouble here, but...
It's all very well to talk about purity, but what do you start with in the first place, and where do you draw the line?
When I first realised I could afford a fast car I decided I'd get a 911. I drove a number, both standard and modified, built between 1969 and 1996. The impression I was left with was somewhat akin to a rollercoaster: enough power and grip to tie your internal organs in knots, and about the same level of driver involvement. (The exception was the late-80s 3.2, which I found quite satisfyingly mechanical, kind of like a scaled-down Landrover Defender)
I honestly don't get the 911 at all. The only appeal I can see is that it's the ultimate easy-does-it commuter car for people without kids. But as a sporty car that's entertaining to drive, sorry but no. Sure they're fast, but the way they deliver their performance, the characteristics of the engine, and the way they handle at the limit, can only be described as uninspiring, stodgy, and predictable.
So I ended up getting a 40 year old Ferrari Dino, originally intended to compete with the 911, and obviously such a knock-out punch that they never had to build anything like it again - the point was proven comprehensively. It cost me nearly 4 times as much as a Porsche, and realistically prevents me from being able to buy a house even when all indications point to the fact that's what I should be doing, but I don't care, because driving it is nothing short of a life-affirming experience.
Oh, and I should say, my daily driver is a bog-standard, 40bhp 1972 beetle 1300, which has the kind of purity a 911 can only dream of.
So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged - and if you're looking at a 964, do yourself a favour and test-drive a Ferrari 328 or a Lotus, Ginetta or TVR, and I promise you you'll never look twice at a 911 again.
Last year I drove a 997 carrera S and it was very nice at the limit. I don't believe in the mythology of any car, but I do think the 911 has a unique character, with some interesting behaviour when driven fairly hard. I'm a rwd snob, I put front engined ahead of rear engined rwd, with mid engined coming last.It's all very well to talk about purity, but what do you start with in the first place, and where do you draw the line?
When I first realised I could afford a fast car I decided I'd get a 911. I drove a number, both standard and modified, built between 1969 and 1996. The impression I was left with was somewhat akin to a rollercoaster: enough power and grip to tie your internal organs in knots, and about the same level of driver involvement. (The exception was the late-80s 3.2, which I found quite satisfyingly mechanical, kind of like a scaled-down Landrover Defender)
I honestly don't get the 911 at all. The only appeal I can see is that it's the ultimate easy-does-it commuter car for people without kids. But as a sporty car that's entertaining to drive, sorry but no. Sure they're fast, but the way they deliver their performance, the characteristics of the engine, and the way they handle at the limit, can only be described as uninspiring, stodgy, and predictable.
So I ended up getting a 40 year old Ferrari Dino, originally intended to compete with the 911, and obviously such a knock-out punch that they never had to build anything like it again - the point was proven comprehensively. It cost me nearly 4 times as much as a Porsche, and realistically prevents me from being able to buy a house even when all indications point to the fact that's what I should be doing, but I don't care, because driving it is nothing short of a life-affirming experience.
Oh, and I should say, my daily driver is a bog-standard, 40bhp 1972 beetle 1300, which has the kind of purity a 911 can only dream of.
So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged - and if you're looking at a 964, do yourself a favour and test-drive a Ferrari 328 or a Lotus, Ginetta or TVR, and I promise you you'll never look twice at a 911 again.
garyhun said:
I test drove an Alfa Spyder last summer. Wobblier than a lightly set jelly. If you're after a satisfying, soul filled drive, Alfa is most definitely not the place to go.
That is some sweeping statement. Try driving a proper Alfa, perhaps like a 145 cloverleaf or even a coupe GTV. The convertables have always been way less solid. Which is fine as covertables are only bught by girls who lunch. 
xkrG said:
The 30% figure comes from a number of pieces of research.
Take a look at the PH Forum for 996 - the first thing I saw was a survey asking who has had 1 of the 5 major problems with these cars. Many of them have had engine rebuilds. Dont even start talking about oil seal failures.
Or in other words you just made the figure up.Take a look at the PH Forum for 996 - the first thing I saw was a survey asking who has had 1 of the 5 major problems with these cars. Many of them have had engine rebuilds. Dont even start talking about oil seal failures.
Ftumpch said:
I honestly don't get the 911 at all.
So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged - and if you're looking at a 964, do yourself a favour and test-drive a Ferrari 328 or a Lotus, Ginetta or TVR, and I promise you you'll never look twice at a 911 again.
I tend to agree, 10+ yrs ago I drove a 1986 for a few weeks and it didn't go, stop or corner very well, was very basic and sounded awful.So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged - and if you're looking at a 964, do yourself a favour and test-drive a Ferrari 328 or a Lotus, Ginetta or TVR, and I promise you you'll never look twice at a 911 again.
Recently I was in the market for a £10-15k 2+2 and looked at the 996. It was OK but just wasn't me.
The problem is when looking for a 2+2 Sportscar what other choices are there ?
All of them are either GT's or ruinously expensive to run as a daily (3200GT, 4200GT, Cerbera etc)
However I agree that like VW, Porsche is still trading on it's reputation as reliable cars which in the case of Porsche for the last 20yrs it simply hasn't delivered.
Also in the 80's a 911 was a league above most cars but these days with Imprezzas and the like it is impossible to justify their cost for their performance.
Oh and for all the BS that the GT3 isn't affected by the RMS failure - why has my friend's failed 3x in 5k (all done at a Main dealer) - they are now replacing the crank - thankfully under warrenty (which costs him £3k / yr)
Ftumpch said:
So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged
A perfect example of how opinions differ, and there's nothing wrong with that! I've driven many cars over the years and nothing touches a 911 for me, from an early 80'e example to the latest 997 (not driven the 991) and, for me, they are untouchable.
As you say though, worth trying before you buy as not everyone will agree.
Garlick said:
Ftumpch said:
So I guess what I'm saying is, before you waste too much of your precious daydreaming or driving time, make sure you don't get sucked in by the mythology surrounding the 911, and look at the alternatives. In my opinion, the Italians, and the British, absolutely rule this sportscar game unchallenged
A perfect example of how opinions differ, and there's nothing wrong with that! I've driven many cars over the years and nothing touches a 911 for me, from an early 80'e example to the latest 997 (not driven the 991) and, for me, they are untouchable.
As you say though, worth trying before you buy as not everyone will agree.
Ftumpch said:
I honestly don't get the 911 at all. The only appeal I can see is that it's the ultimate easy-does-it commuter car for people without kids. But as a sporty car that's entertaining to drive, sorry but no. Sure they're fast, but the way they deliver their performance, the characteristics of the engine, and the way they handle at the limit, can only be described as uninspiring, stodgy, and predictable.
I'm sorry, you are entitled to your opinion as we all are, but those comments are so wide of the mark as to make them irrelevant to any sensible discussion about sports cars. johnpeat said:
I was reading Evo earlier - in particular their 'somewhat out of character' decision to put the R8 and GTR ahead of the 911 in a group test.
It also occurred to me that they're testing a vanilla 911 which is designed to do what all vanilla 911s do - which is belong to fat old men who think it makes them look good.
The R8 tops a range of cars and should be the pinnacle of performance for that marque - ditto the GTR - but the 911 is just the cooking model for people who want 'that badge' and not on a "cheap" car like a Boxster or Cayman.
If you like em tho - all power to you...
Actually Evo tested both the vanilla 991 and a PDCC equipped S in their test last month.It also occurred to me that they're testing a vanilla 911 which is designed to do what all vanilla 911s do - which is belong to fat old men who think it makes them look good.
The R8 tops a range of cars and should be the pinnacle of performance for that marque - ditto the GTR - but the 911 is just the cooking model for people who want 'that badge' and not on a "cheap" car like a Boxster or Cayman.
If you like em tho - all power to you...
They wrote (if you got that far on p74) that they preferred the non PDCC/non PASM base model as they felt it had more feel.
dom180 said:
Actually Evo tested both the vanilla 991 and a PDCC equipped S in their test last month.
They wrote (if you got that far on p74) that they preferred the non PDCC/non PASM base model as they felt it had more feel.
having driven a 991 C2S PDK/PDCC and a 991 C2 manual with no options, I agree.They wrote (if you got that far on p74) that they preferred the non PDCC/non PASM base model as they felt it had more feel.
Garlick in the article said:
why base-spec 911s rule
Garlick in the article said:
I still can't shake the opinion that the lesser the spec, the better the Porsche.
Garlick in the article said:
but with each wheel size increase, power upgrade or suspension change the purity of the base car is less easy to exploit
Garlick in the article said:
Long live the base model!
Really?Garlick said:
I'd like my 911 to have an additional S.
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