RE: PH Blog: why Lotus-Mansory makes sense
Discussion
Pugsey said:
The Pits said:
Smelling of glue, build quality or whatever else is used as a stick to beat Lotus is absolutely irrelevant to the enjoyment of driving - really driving - down a great road.
To a dgree, you're right of course. BUT when you're being asked to write a cheque for +£30/40/50/60k then, in this day and age a potential buyer - including an out and out petrolhead like myself - IS entitled to beat lotus with that stick. High quality AND sublime driving experience should (must) be achievable at that price.Pugsey, check out one of the latest Evoras, you'll be pleasantly surprised I think. You know the old smells of glue thing is almost like a car enthusiast intent meme. Remember reading in in review of TVRs back in the day and of course Clarkson loves it for any small manufacturer. Don't know about anybody else but I've been in many such cars and have never ever smelled glue.
cathalm said:
Pugsey, check out one of the latest Evoras, you'll be pleasantly surprised I think. You know the old smells of glue thing is almost like a car enthusiast intent meme. Remember reading in in review of TVRs back in the day and of course Clarkson loves it for any small manufacturer. Don't know about anybody else but I've been in many such cars and have never ever smelled glue.
Funnily enough I had one to play with for a few days last week - and quality has come on well since I was last at the factory (had my name down for one of the first Evoras but couldn't bring myself to part with the money for a dodgey quality product) - and it was a thing of joy. I agree it DIDN'T smell of glue - frankly my S1 Elise (one of the very first customer cars) didn't either and that was a good few years back now. However I think the 'glue thing' is now just a good generic term for not very good (as opposed to poor) quality and much as I loved the driving exerience, and I REALLY did, I couldn't write a cheque that size for a substandard product (when compared to others). I truly hope they sort it out because I WANT to be a fan!Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 27th March 17:04
The all-important perception of quality is better on a porsche. But that doesn't make a Lotus bad quality which is the unfair leap most seem to make. Most of the MY2012 improvements are on the perception of quality. I believe the Evora has been of fundamentally sound construction since the beginning. Certainly when you look at the stuff that matters, Lotus spend a disproportionate amount on chassis rigidity, damper, tyre, suspension and steering development at the expense of minor switchgear. It's a priority list I share.
Having seen Evoras on the production line they appear to be very meticulously constructed. If anything, one of the problems is they spend too long making them, which is mainly why they are expensive. I also find porsche's very mass produced, dull and plasticky inside but most people seem to find some comfort in that.
When it comes to parting with my own cash, I personally don't want a luxury car, I want a life-affirming, responsive sports car that majors on driver involvement, feedback, balance and benign on-limit handling characteristics. I've yet to find another car maker that delivers so consistently against these areas. Having wasted too much money elsewhere I'd want my £70k car to deliver strongly where it matters most to me. And that is not traffic manners and minor switchgear.
Having seen Evoras on the production line they appear to be very meticulously constructed. If anything, one of the problems is they spend too long making them, which is mainly why they are expensive. I also find porsche's very mass produced, dull and plasticky inside but most people seem to find some comfort in that.
When it comes to parting with my own cash, I personally don't want a luxury car, I want a life-affirming, responsive sports car that majors on driver involvement, feedback, balance and benign on-limit handling characteristics. I've yet to find another car maker that delivers so consistently against these areas. Having wasted too much money elsewhere I'd want my £70k car to deliver strongly where it matters most to me. And that is not traffic manners and minor switchgear.
The Pits said:
The all-important perception of quality is better on a porsche. But that doesn't make a Lotus bad quality which is the unfair leap most seem to make. Most of the MY2012 improvements are on the perception of quality. I believe the Evora has been of fundamentally sound construction since the beginning. Certainly when you look at the stuff that matters, Lotus spend a disproportionate amount on chassis rigidity, damper, tyre, suspension and steering development at the expense of minor switchgear. It's a priority list I share.
Having seen Evoras on the production line they appear to be very meticulously constructed. If anything, one of the problems is they spend too long making them, which is mainly why they are expensive. I also find porsche's very mass produced, dull and plasticky inside but most people seem to find some comfort in that.
When it comes to parting with my own cash, I personally don't want a luxury car, I want a life-affirming, responsive sports car that majors on driver involvement, feedback, balance and benign on-limit handling characteristics. I've yet to find another car maker that delivers so consistently against these areas. Having wasted too much money elsewhere I'd want my £70k car to deliver strongly where it matters most to me. And that is not traffic manners and minor switchgear.
Again, in general I agree with you. Mind you I think a factory tour at Porsche would suprise you. It's a small set up with a lot of hands on stuff going on. And masses of very 'un German' enthusiasm about the place.Having seen Evoras on the production line they appear to be very meticulously constructed. If anything, one of the problems is they spend too long making them, which is mainly why they are expensive. I also find porsche's very mass produced, dull and plasticky inside but most people seem to find some comfort in that.
When it comes to parting with my own cash, I personally don't want a luxury car, I want a life-affirming, responsive sports car that majors on driver involvement, feedback, balance and benign on-limit handling characteristics. I've yet to find another car maker that delivers so consistently against these areas. Having wasted too much money elsewhere I'd want my £70k car to deliver strongly where it matters most to me. And that is not traffic manners and minor switchgear.
What I really don't get though is why anyone who - rightly - wants a great driving experience would be happy to forego good traffic manners/switchgear/quality etc. When I spend £70k I want the lot!
Final thought, and please take this the right way, but your arguements would be better without the constant little digs about 'the type' who buys a Porsche. I've had a few - 3 x BoxsterS (my favourite Porsches), 997S and GT3 and I assure you it isn't "comfort" in "dullness and "plastic" that lures me to them!
why would 'digs' bother you in the slightest? your favourite car maker is not in danger of extinction. Mine is.
boxster/cayman is by far my favourite porsche but honestly back to back with an elise on an alpine pass it was a blunt instrument, but only in direct comparison of course. A boxster would have a similar effect on an M3 or similar I'm sure.
but the promise of the concept boxster has never been delivered on. too many focus groups, too many compromises for daily usability and civility and trying to hard to be all things to all men. that's what makes a boxster a fundamentally sound and very well resolved but ultimately uninspiring for something that could and should be more focused. The little glimpses of its potential as seen in the boxster spyder and Cayman R only support this view.
It's all there on paper. Sweet, proper mid engined balance, enhanced further with a low Cof G flat 6, 300 odd bhp, 13 something kg weight, massive porsche resources available for development. It should be roughly twice as much fun as a Honda S2000 but it just isn't. It's much better than a Honda S2000 but not as much fun. And my Elise is roughly 10 times more fun than the Honda S2000 I used to have. The linear power delivery, porsche's obsession with things like small turning circles (for practical, city use), dreary inoffensive interior, too much driver isolation, too little feedback (that would make it feel unrefined and crude to the average man, not therefore not 'classy' enough).
Not even porsche resources can achieve a car that's focused as well as being a practical, daily usable all rounder. It will always involve some compromises and there's no way I'll give up on what matters most to me in exchange for ability I don't and won't use. That's also why I'm happy to accept the compromises a Lotus asks - because they deliver in spades in the areas that matter most to me.
boxster/cayman is by far my favourite porsche but honestly back to back with an elise on an alpine pass it was a blunt instrument, but only in direct comparison of course. A boxster would have a similar effect on an M3 or similar I'm sure.
but the promise of the concept boxster has never been delivered on. too many focus groups, too many compromises for daily usability and civility and trying to hard to be all things to all men. that's what makes a boxster a fundamentally sound and very well resolved but ultimately uninspiring for something that could and should be more focused. The little glimpses of its potential as seen in the boxster spyder and Cayman R only support this view.
It's all there on paper. Sweet, proper mid engined balance, enhanced further with a low Cof G flat 6, 300 odd bhp, 13 something kg weight, massive porsche resources available for development. It should be roughly twice as much fun as a Honda S2000 but it just isn't. It's much better than a Honda S2000 but not as much fun. And my Elise is roughly 10 times more fun than the Honda S2000 I used to have. The linear power delivery, porsche's obsession with things like small turning circles (for practical, city use), dreary inoffensive interior, too much driver isolation, too little feedback (that would make it feel unrefined and crude to the average man, not therefore not 'classy' enough).
Not even porsche resources can achieve a car that's focused as well as being a practical, daily usable all rounder. It will always involve some compromises and there's no way I'll give up on what matters most to me in exchange for ability I don't and won't use. That's also why I'm happy to accept the compromises a Lotus asks - because they deliver in spades in the areas that matter most to me.
Lotus has proved that it's current business model - being a low volume manufacturer of sports cars appealing only to increasingly cash strapped western european enthusiasts - is not sustainable. Sadly it really doesnt matter what we think of its current strategy or tie ups with celebrities and tuners, because the truth is that it's future lies in selling cars at a premium in markets full of people with real money but with less 'mature' tastes where these things matter.
I'm sure Enzo never dreamed theme parks and merchandise would one day be so important to Ferrari, or Ferdinand that his best seller would one day be a rebadged VW 4x4.
Colin would be finding lotuses transition as painful as we are, but if it allows a great British manufacturer to survive and even thrive, then I'm all for it.
I'm sure Enzo never dreamed theme parks and merchandise would one day be so important to Ferrari, or Ferdinand that his best seller would one day be a rebadged VW 4x4.
Colin would be finding lotuses transition as painful as we are, but if it allows a great British manufacturer to survive and even thrive, then I'm all for it.
As always the proof will be in the pudding. To re-iterate my credentials, I am a Lotus owner and have had three previous. I am disgusted by what has happened to the brand under D.Bahar. One good customer alienated. Hopefully, for new Lotus' sake I am replaced by a China-man. We will see.
Also irritated by people bashing the economics of the Elise / Exige. It was a cheap car to develop; over its lifespan has shifted in number and in ultimate guise of S2 Exige sold for a tad shy of £50k. Lotus makes an ok margin on the base Elise and will have made a healthy margin on top end variants. Its turmoil is not a result of its core product, its the stupid decisions around it. M250 project as an example. Evora another. DB's list of madness is the icing on the cake. Seriously it staggers me that someone thinks this is a good idea and is signing off the cheques. In many ways I have to applaud the man and consider somewhat of a genius - really do believe he could sell snow to eskimos!!
Keep it tight and keep it core. Drop the global ambition, it will never happen. Also stop chasing new world money where you have no brand kudos and are starting from scratch. Will NOT win war against Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc...Take a lesson from Caterham's book and develop the Elise / Exige concept accordingly. Over time give the punters (real enthusiasts and repeat customers) what they want; an Esprit. Simple concept, play to Lotus' strengths. Lotus chassis dynamics, outsourced gearbox, outsourced engine - high revving V8, wrapped in a package as jaw dropping as the original Esprit was back in the day. £80k - no more. I for one would put my money where my mouth is on this.
Also irritated by people bashing the economics of the Elise / Exige. It was a cheap car to develop; over its lifespan has shifted in number and in ultimate guise of S2 Exige sold for a tad shy of £50k. Lotus makes an ok margin on the base Elise and will have made a healthy margin on top end variants. Its turmoil is not a result of its core product, its the stupid decisions around it. M250 project as an example. Evora another. DB's list of madness is the icing on the cake. Seriously it staggers me that someone thinks this is a good idea and is signing off the cheques. In many ways I have to applaud the man and consider somewhat of a genius - really do believe he could sell snow to eskimos!!
Keep it tight and keep it core. Drop the global ambition, it will never happen. Also stop chasing new world money where you have no brand kudos and are starting from scratch. Will NOT win war against Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo etc...Take a lesson from Caterham's book and develop the Elise / Exige concept accordingly. Over time give the punters (real enthusiasts and repeat customers) what they want; an Esprit. Simple concept, play to Lotus' strengths. Lotus chassis dynamics, outsourced gearbox, outsourced engine - high revving V8, wrapped in a package as jaw dropping as the original Esprit was back in the day. £80k - no more. I for one would put my money where my mouth is on this.
The article makes a fair but overly optimistic point.
So one 'new' Lotus looks good; the weight of evidence suggests that if the brand is aligning itself to urban culture and Mansory, this won't be the case for very long.
This is hard for a lot of people to accept because this is a total reinvention rather than an evolution. It throws everything in the bin, the heritage, the Englishness, the lot, to head down a path that may end up with the company producing nothing more than cheap sh_t imitation Lambos.
So one 'new' Lotus looks good; the weight of evidence suggests that if the brand is aligning itself to urban culture and Mansory, this won't be the case for very long.
This is hard for a lot of people to accept because this is a total reinvention rather than an evolution. It throws everything in the bin, the heritage, the Englishness, the lot, to head down a path that may end up with the company producing nothing more than cheap sh_t imitation Lambos.
Motormatt said:
Lotus has proved that it's current business model - being a low volume manufacturer of sports cars appealing only to increasingly cash strapped western european enthusiasts - is not sustainable. Sadly it really doesnt matter what we think of its current strategy or tie ups with celebrities and tuners, because the truth is that it's future lies in selling cars at a premium in markets full of people with real money but with less 'mature' tastes where these things matter.
I'm sure Enzo never dreamed theme parks and merchandise would one day be so important to Ferrari, or Ferdinand that his best seller would one day be a rebadged VW 4x4.
Colin would be finding lotuses transition as painful as we are, but if it allows a great British manufacturer to survive and even thrive, then I'm all for it.
What would be 'British' about it exactly?I'm sure Enzo never dreamed theme parks and merchandise would one day be so important to Ferrari, or Ferdinand that his best seller would one day be a rebadged VW 4x4.
Colin would be finding lotuses transition as painful as we are, but if it allows a great British manufacturer to survive and even thrive, then I'm all for it.
Or are you referring to the same Britishness the Nissan Micras made over here exude?
randomcash said:
Motormatt said:
Lotus has proved that it's current business model - being a low volume manufacturer of sports cars appealing only to increasingly cash strapped western european enthusiasts - is not sustainable. Sadly it really doesnt matter what we think of its current strategy or tie ups with celebrities and tuners, because the truth is that it's future lies in selling cars at a premium in markets full of people with real money but with less 'mature' tastes where these things matter.
I'm sure Enzo never dreamed theme parks and merchandise would one day be so important to Ferrari, or Ferdinand that his best seller would one day be a rebadged VW 4x4.
Colin would be finding lotuses transition as painful as we are, but if it allows a great British manufacturer to survive and even thrive, then I'm all for it.
What would be 'British' about it exactly?I'm sure Enzo never dreamed theme parks and merchandise would one day be so important to Ferrari, or Ferdinand that his best seller would one day be a rebadged VW 4x4.
Colin would be finding lotuses transition as painful as we are, but if it allows a great British manufacturer to survive and even thrive, then I'm all for it.
Or are you referring to the same Britishness the Nissan Micras made over here exude?
Obviously its nothing like a Japanese shopping trolley manufactured here for economic reasons.
GeeTeaEye said:
A new Lotus Evora S costs £61,500 basic - which may explain why I haven't seen any lately.
Adding to the basic price the cost of an optional mansory interior upgrade wont improve sales.
And I've come a curious 'Freddie Mercury' Special Edition, at £75k:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3691247.htm
I thought I'd seen it all, until now...Adding to the basic price the cost of an optional mansory interior upgrade wont improve sales.
And I've come a curious 'Freddie Mercury' Special Edition, at £75k:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3691247.htm
Why? I mean...I read the reason in the advert, but still I ask "why"?
toppstuff said:
I will try and explain why I am concerned about this development..
I guess I am an ideal potential buyer.
<snip good, long, considered post>
It is tragic that they don't see this...
+1 for all the points raised in this solid, early post. I guess I am an ideal potential buyer.
<snip good, long, considered post>
It is tragic that they don't see this...
I'd really, really, like a Lotus. I always have. And would/could buy one tomorrow. But at the time I last seriously tried some with a view to buy the Elise wasn't enough, in any guise, and the Europa - a drop-dead beautiful thing I'd love to love - was grossly underpowered/under-engined/underwhelming for the price point. Damn shame; it was the Europa I wanted, and would have had.
Yes, I really, really, really want(ed) to. But I will not, for many of the reasons raised already. And if the survival of Lotus depends on a climb into silly-aspirational/tasteless territory, then they'll drop off my radar altogether very soon.
cathalm said:
Calling cow poo on the new versus used argument. Nonsense every time it is spouted and nonsense this time. Aside from which, I have an Aston and am currently looking to swap for an Evora S, so people like me do exist. Why do I want to do this? Because the driving experience the Evora offers is absolutely stunning. I accept that for some people they might want more toys and such and that is fine for them to buy something else. I accept that there are some that only read headline power figures, fine too. Even in quality stakes the car has just received a significant upgrade but even then perhaps it wont be for some. It's in many ways a car half way between where they were and where they want to be, but still ridiculously good to drive.
But to claim it isn;t exciting, read a review, look at teh car of teh year awards, go to a dealer and actually try one. For sure the car is expensive and is missing some qualities that would help it out. Make no mistake though, this is supposed to be a forum for driving enthusiasts and it's crap to claim that "anyone would be mad" to value one of the best drivers cars of the last few years.
I wonder how many of you Lotus abusers on this forum have actually bothered to drive the car, how many of you actually understand anything about Colin Chapman or his aspirations for his company? Then I wonder how many of you are brand fanboys for a rival brand or Porsche obsessives that have never gone near a Lotus because you think it doesn't make you look wealthy enough (I'll leave CH out of this in case my head explodes with frustration).
Fact is, for real driving enthusiast there is tons to love at Lotus but there are not enough such people to support the company. The change will take time but overall direction is correct and what Chapman wanted (try to challenge me on that, please). There are also a group of people who bought Elises at one time or another who resent any move up market any away from them, even claiming to be abandoned, despite the prototype new Elise already having been shown. There is little the company can do to avoid such things at this point save choose bankruptcy.
By way of a history lesson kids, those of you who think that "add lightness" was Chapman total philosophy are wrong (not by a long bloody shot). If you think the history of the company is producing Elise type stripped out cars, you are wrong. If you think Colin wanted to stay in that market you are wrong. If you think Chapman was some sort of saint who who would turn in his grave over "selling out" or bringing in a styling partner then you are so wrong you should have a word with yourself and go buy a book.
I am by no means a Lotus fanatic but I enjoy lots of different brands and qualities. It simply strikes me that Lotus is subject to more ill informed aggression and bile than any other brand. Buyers of other cars spouting crap with glee and Elise buyers turning on the company for betraying them. It's a perfect storm of hate. The Evora is not perfect, but lets be clear it is an amazing drivers car and it's far from silly from someone who frequents this forum to value that first and foremeost. The next generation of cars will make or break the strategy but for now, get out there and try a MY2012 Evora S, you will be stunned how good it is and maybe if some of you have the cash we can contribute to that next generation of cars we should all be desperately hoping come about.
I absolutely applaud your decision to buy one, but then I'm not a huge Aston fan either. It just seems to me that, at £60k+ it seems to be a hell of a lot of money for what you get compared to a Porsche.But to claim it isn;t exciting, read a review, look at teh car of teh year awards, go to a dealer and actually try one. For sure the car is expensive and is missing some qualities that would help it out. Make no mistake though, this is supposed to be a forum for driving enthusiasts and it's crap to claim that "anyone would be mad" to value one of the best drivers cars of the last few years.
I wonder how many of you Lotus abusers on this forum have actually bothered to drive the car, how many of you actually understand anything about Colin Chapman or his aspirations for his company? Then I wonder how many of you are brand fanboys for a rival brand or Porsche obsessives that have never gone near a Lotus because you think it doesn't make you look wealthy enough (I'll leave CH out of this in case my head explodes with frustration).
Fact is, for real driving enthusiast there is tons to love at Lotus but there are not enough such people to support the company. The change will take time but overall direction is correct and what Chapman wanted (try to challenge me on that, please). There are also a group of people who bought Elises at one time or another who resent any move up market any away from them, even claiming to be abandoned, despite the prototype new Elise already having been shown. There is little the company can do to avoid such things at this point save choose bankruptcy.
By way of a history lesson kids, those of you who think that "add lightness" was Chapman total philosophy are wrong (not by a long bloody shot). If you think the history of the company is producing Elise type stripped out cars, you are wrong. If you think Colin wanted to stay in that market you are wrong. If you think Chapman was some sort of saint who who would turn in his grave over "selling out" or bringing in a styling partner then you are so wrong you should have a word with yourself and go buy a book.
I am by no means a Lotus fanatic but I enjoy lots of different brands and qualities. It simply strikes me that Lotus is subject to more ill informed aggression and bile than any other brand. Buyers of other cars spouting crap with glee and Elise buyers turning on the company for betraying them. It's a perfect storm of hate. The Evora is not perfect, but lets be clear it is an amazing drivers car and it's far from silly from someone who frequents this forum to value that first and foremeost. The next generation of cars will make or break the strategy but for now, get out there and try a MY2012 Evora S, you will be stunned how good it is and maybe if some of you have the cash we can contribute to that next generation of cars we should all be desperately hoping come about.
I also worry about cars that are amazing to drive and their actual usability day to day these days. many cars will do speeds far in excess of any speed limit and you can only ever do that on a track safely. I wouldn;t be surprised if there are more speed cameras and eventually new cars will be sold with GPS enabled black boxes that see you speeding and dish out fines automatically!
Lotus need to use move exotic engines. Look at Morgan.
Mansory's expertise is in carbon fibre. They pioneered a lot of the processes & already supply to other manufacturers.
There interpritation in the pictures looks a thousand times better than the standard item....but I still wouldn't concider one because of the engine.
Mansory's expertise is in carbon fibre. They pioneered a lot of the processes & already supply to other manufacturers.
There interpritation in the pictures looks a thousand times better than the standard item....but I still wouldn't concider one because of the engine.
No.
Mansory's use of carbon-fibre is purely for cosmetics. I don;t believe they know a damn thing about production structural use for the stuff- that's the preserve of big money, McLaren and Porsche perhaps.
- and it's the purely-cosmetic reach for appeal that signals this is probably the kiss of death for Lotus as it is today.
Mansory's use of carbon-fibre is purely for cosmetics. I don;t believe they know a damn thing about production structural use for the stuff- that's the preserve of big money, McLaren and Porsche perhaps.
- and it's the purely-cosmetic reach for appeal that signals this is probably the kiss of death for Lotus as it is today.
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