RE: The PH guide to the EU's new tyre labels
Discussion
Wow, so much hate for people being given standardised, objective information on tyre performance.
I would like to see dry grip and wear stats too, but I suppose if you have five separate parameters peoples eyes would just glaze over. Based on the tyre tests I've read over the years stopping distance in the wet is by far the biggest differentiator and correlates pretty well with dry stopping distances.
I suspect two things will happen as a result of this: First, more people will buy better quality tyres because the difference between the good and the crap will be more apparent; this will make the manufacturers build tyres which perform better in the tests. The second thing that will happen is that the parameters which aren't measured - most notably wear - will be sacrificed to improve the parameters that are measured.
I would like to see dry grip and wear stats too, but I suppose if you have five separate parameters peoples eyes would just glaze over. Based on the tyre tests I've read over the years stopping distance in the wet is by far the biggest differentiator and correlates pretty well with dry stopping distances.
I suspect two things will happen as a result of this: First, more people will buy better quality tyres because the difference between the good and the crap will be more apparent; this will make the manufacturers build tyres which perform better in the tests. The second thing that will happen is that the parameters which aren't measured - most notably wear - will be sacrificed to improve the parameters that are measured.
The Black Flash said:
Pingman said:
Seems like a great idea to me, but its missing some key tyre info, such as:
Dry performance
Wear rate
Surely these are essential to know when buying a tyre?
Cold weather handling and cornering grip are pretty necessary too.
Yup. But they're not interested in helping people, they're interested in pushing the green agenda. Dry performance
Wear rate
Surely these are essential to know when buying a tyre?
Cold weather handling and cornering grip are pretty necessary too.
mollymoo said:
Wow, so much hate for people being given standardised, objective information on tyre performance.
You've only been here a month, so you might not have noticed that PH automatically hates anything and everything that the EU does regardless of merit.Some people mentioned tyre wear; there is a wear rating on most tyres, the higher the number the longer the tyres should last. I think the highest is 400. I'm not sure if it is part of a standardised test or a number the manufacturer puts on.
Many tyres also already had a grip rating on them, but it was a load of b
ks because cheap chinese tyres could still achieve an A rating.All totally irrelevant to anyone whose car is specified to a particular tyre.
Or to those whose total decision model is 'how much?', (minicabbers seem to have a taste for makes I have never heard of).
Also curious as who thinks that a simplistic label will 'force' the big tyre companies to make better tyres? Do they believe that the billions that Michelin/Bridgetone/Dunlop/Goodyear et al spend on R & D is purely marketing vanity?
As about 75% of people never check the pressures you do wonder how relevant these gradings are in real life. No joking I drove up St James St in London last week and there was an M-B S500 parked awaiting his passenger, I thought the offside rear tyre looked a bit soft. As I went past I could see the rim had cut a hole in the sidewall... Any ideas as to the rolling resistance grading of a flat disintegrating tyre? G perhaps?
Or to those whose total decision model is 'how much?', (minicabbers seem to have a taste for makes I have never heard of).
Also curious as who thinks that a simplistic label will 'force' the big tyre companies to make better tyres? Do they believe that the billions that Michelin/Bridgetone/Dunlop/Goodyear et al spend on R & D is purely marketing vanity?
As about 75% of people never check the pressures you do wonder how relevant these gradings are in real life. No joking I drove up St James St in London last week and there was an M-B S500 parked awaiting his passenger, I thought the offside rear tyre looked a bit soft. As I went past I could see the rim had cut a hole in the sidewall... Any ideas as to the rolling resistance grading of a flat disintegrating tyre? G perhaps?
SimbaWC said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
SimbaWC said:
This is a great idea. What could possibly be wrong with knowing more about what you buy when you buy it? We all know that a Continental/Dunlop/Bridgestone is better than a Kasakana but isn't it good to be able to say why that is with empirical/objective/scientific evidence to back it up?
So you go out and buy some new tyres that are top rated for wet braking (that's the only grip bit of information you have) and find they are completely toilet in the dry compared to your old rubber round the twisties.See why it doesn't work?
You can't measure everything, it is impractical and in some circumstances impossible.
Look at performance/target orientated policing. It does not work.
Take the gear ratios of some cars for example: they make the car worse to drive because they are designed against one monitored stat (0-60).
I'm not interested in knowing that the police have caught twice as many criminals if those caught have been speeding and no burglars have been nicked.
Having seen many a presentation on this now I can safely say t he general consensus from inside the industry (but not the manufacturers) are this:
1) The budget guys will print what they like.
2) This will actually drive people away from wet grip in favour of fuel savings.
3) No premium tyre will make the AA grade yet, so if a budget can get a C then who's going to spend double the price on a B?
4) As wear isn't a part of this, the budget guys will start to make really soft tyres again.
It's all a bit of a mess.
1) The budget guys will print what they like.
2) This will actually drive people away from wet grip in favour of fuel savings.
3) No premium tyre will make the AA grade yet, so if a budget can get a C then who's going to spend double the price on a B?
4) As wear isn't a part of this, the budget guys will start to make really soft tyres again.
It's all a bit of a mess.
Oh, and I tweeted something about this yesterday:
http://twitpic.com/92rv1h
A visual idea of the difference between A and F from 80km/h in wet braking. It's quite far, and the car on the F tyre was still travelling scarily quickly at the point A had stopped.
http://twitpic.com/92rv1h
A visual idea of the difference between A and F from 80km/h in wet braking. It's quite far, and the car on the F tyre was still travelling scarily quickly at the point A had stopped.
SimbaWC said:
This is a great idea. What could possibly be wrong with knowing more about what you buy when you buy it? We all know that a Continental/Dunlop/Bridgestone is better than a Kasakana but isn't it good to be able to say why that is with empirical/objective/scientific evidence to back it up?
Untrue. This is bureaucrats dictating what we as consumers should accept from a product and fooling us with some coloured bars and league tables into nodding and agreeing with them. Nanny state nonsense!GC8 said:
Two out of three indicators being noise and economy - both important to the EU but very much of secondary importance to us.
No mention of dry grip of course, because that suggests a politically unacceptable type of driving behaviour...
Precisely. All left-wing agenda stuff as the primary choices are not favouring the purchaser's own interests. Low rolling resistance (ie. reduced friction) eco tyres are by nature less grippy in the dry.No mention of dry grip of course, because that suggests a politically unacceptable type of driving behaviour...
GC8 said:
Two out of three indicators being noise and economy - both important to the EU but very much of secondary importance to us.
No mention of dry grip of course, because that suggests a politically unacceptable type of driving behaviour...
Tyre noise was very important to me and my Lexus No mention of dry grip of course, because that suggests a politically unacceptable type of driving behaviour...
jon- said:
Having seen many a presentation on this now I can safely say t he general consensus from inside the industry (but not the manufacturers) are this:
1) The budget guys will print what they like.
2) This will actually drive people away from wet grip in favour of fuel savings.
3) No premium tyre will make the AA grade yet, so if a budget can get a C then who's going to spend double the price on a B?
4) As wear isn't a part of this, the budget guys will start to make really soft tyres again.
It's all a bit of a mess.
Any indicative labels available yet from the big names?1) The budget guys will print what they like.
2) This will actually drive people away from wet grip in favour of fuel savings.
3) No premium tyre will make the AA grade yet, so if a budget can get a C then who's going to spend double the price on a B?
4) As wear isn't a part of this, the budget guys will start to make really soft tyres again.
It's all a bit of a mess.
GC8 said:
Two out of three indicators being noise and economy - both important to the EU but very much of secondary importance to us.
No mention of dry grip of course, because that suggests a politically unacceptable type of driving behaviour...
I've seen people on here asking for the quietest tyres, and there are almost daily threads about frugal daily drivers. No mention of dry grip of course, because that suggests a politically unacceptable type of driving behaviour...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=861...
Fox- said:
No, I mean actual ones that relate to current tyres.
Ah, no, the manufacturers get st on if they give any sort of indication.All they've said is no one will get an AA, there might be a few AB or BAs, but they expect the majority of premium tyres to sit in the BB BC region.
As far as I know they've still not finalised the calculation used to balance out the wet grip braking depending on the Mu of the surface so no one actually knows.
I've also heard on the grapevine certain factories in China have already started printing the labels for their tyres without having done any testing and there's still no independent test body to verify the labels...
It's gonna get worse before it gets better!
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