RE: Ringside Seat: playing with the big boys
Discussion
Dale Lomas said:
You mean the Rover 45 climate control pictured here?
Genuine Pagani unit on eBay for comparison at a 99% discount...
Now there is a man that knows his onions!!!Genuine Pagani unit on eBay for comparison at a 99% discount...
Shocking they haven't done more to hide it....REALLY shocking. I've lost count of the amount of times I've read about the Volvo SatNav in an Aston.....this is just a whole different league!
madda said:
LukeBird said:
Bloody hell! 
Good to see the PH choice participating as well, there's a Mk2 MX-5 following the Koenigsegg onto the track around 1:25!
We might have overtaken it too. Good to see the PH choice participating as well, there's a Mk2 MX-5 following the Koenigsegg onto the track around 1:25!
Full write up from me, a relitively poor Welshmans perspective who was lucky enough to attend the event coming soon.
55+ laps in the turbo Mx5 and we are heading home along the M20 as I type this. The event was beyond our wildest dreams and I will find a way of going again next year.
I realised yesterday that I've done 40,000 miles in the last two years in my Mk1 MX5. Maybe some owners do that in Porsches, but I'd be suprised to see that kind of mileage in any really top-end exotica. It was certainly even true of my Xflow caterham compared to my r500.
55 laps of the ring, that it most impressive. Can't wait to read your write up.
Seriously, three pages of comments about a ZONDA and AGERA at the NURBURGRING and 75% are about the provenance of a climate control system?! Who cares where it's from, if it works? IMO it hardly detracts from the Zonda's beautifully idiosyncratic interior and if you're lucky enough to find yourself sitting in that driver's seat, would you really complain? Listen to that glorious engine, enjoy the ride and perhaps think to yourself: "Mmm, fearsomely fast as that Koenigsegg is, I doubt very much if it actually did 250mph on the straight..."
To clarify something, in a straight line, I suspect that the Agera R may well be able to do 250mph+, maybe even 260mph+, but it would need to be somewhere like VW's test track where the Veyron's speed records were set. I just can't see it being at the Nurburgring, being driven by a man in a helmet but otherwise dressed in everyday clothes! But I imagine VW wouldn't be inclined to let them come and play, just in case...Given that Koenigsegg do make regular claims of insane top speeds, why don't they find somewhere long enough to see what their car can actually do?
(Anyone ever play Project Gotham Racing 2? Great fun but hardly realistic. For what it's worth, by driving down the 'ring straight the wrong way, I could get the old Koenigsegg CC8S to something ridiculously impossible like 230mph. Some of the other cars in the game could go even faster.)
To clarify something, in a straight line, I suspect that the Agera R may well be able to do 250mph+, maybe even 260mph+, but it would need to be somewhere like VW's test track where the Veyron's speed records were set. I just can't see it being at the Nurburgring, being driven by a man in a helmet but otherwise dressed in everyday clothes! But I imagine VW wouldn't be inclined to let them come and play, just in case...Given that Koenigsegg do make regular claims of insane top speeds, why don't they find somewhere long enough to see what their car can actually do?
(Anyone ever play Project Gotham Racing 2? Great fun but hardly realistic. For what it's worth, by driving down the 'ring straight the wrong way, I could get the old Koenigsegg CC8S to something ridiculously impossible like 230mph. Some of the other cars in the game could go even faster.)
Edited by BelfastBoy on Saturday 7th April 08:30
BelfastBoy said:
Seriously, three pages of comments about a ZONDA and AGERA at the NURBURGRING and 75% are about the provenance of a climate control system?! Who cares where it's from, if it works? IMO it hardly detracts from the Zonda's beautifully idiosyncratic interior and if you're lucky enough to find yourself sitting in that driver's seat, would you really complain? Listen to that glorious engine, enjoy the ride and perhaps think to yourself: "Mmm, fearsomely fast as that Koenigsegg is, I doubt very much if it actually did 250mph on the straight..."
To clarify something, in a straight line, I suspect that the Agera R may well be able to do 250mph+, maybe even 260mph+, but it would need to be somewhere like VW's test track where the Veyron's speed records were set. I just can't see it being at the Nurburgring, being driven by a man in a helmet but otherwise dressed in everyday clothes! But I imagine VW wouldn't be inclined to let them come and play, just in case...Given that Koenigsegg do make regular claims of insane top speeds, why don't they find somewhere long enough to see what their car can actually do?
(Anyone ever play Project Gotham Racing 2? Great fun but hardly realistic. For what it's worth, by driving down the 'ring straight the wrong way, I could get the old Koenigsegg CC8S to something ridiculously impossible like 230mph. Some of the other cars in the game could go even faster.)
They did test the CCR:To clarify something, in a straight line, I suspect that the Agera R may well be able to do 250mph+, maybe even 260mph+, but it would need to be somewhere like VW's test track where the Veyron's speed records were set. I just can't see it being at the Nurburgring, being driven by a man in a helmet but otherwise dressed in everyday clothes! But I imagine VW wouldn't be inclined to let them come and play, just in case...Given that Koenigsegg do make regular claims of insane top speeds, why don't they find somewhere long enough to see what their car can actually do?
(Anyone ever play Project Gotham Racing 2? Great fun but hardly realistic. For what it's worth, by driving down the 'ring straight the wrong way, I could get the old Koenigsegg CC8S to something ridiculously impossible like 230mph. Some of the other cars in the game could go even faster.)
Edited by BelfastBoy on Saturday 7th April 08:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbxxG2Kbas0
As well made and as nice sounding the Zonda is, I'd take the Koenigsegg every time.
BelfastBoy said:
"Mmm, fearsomely fast as that Koenigsegg is, I doubt very much if it actually did 250mph on the straight..."
To clarify something, in a straight line, I suspect that the Agera R may well be able to do 250mph+, maybe even 260mph+, but it would need to be somewhere like VW's test track where the Veyron's speed records were set. I just can't see it being at the Nurburgring, being driven by a man in a helmet but otherwise dressed in everyday clothes!
In EVO magazine 123 a Koenigsegg CCX is tested on the Nurburgring alongside an Enzo, Zonda and Carrera GT. The driver is Marc Basseng, an established professional driver (3rd this year at Nurburgring 24 hours) and he only managed 190 mph top speed with the CCX. Mind you, still bloody fast of course, but a long way off the 250 mph claim done by mr. Eker (49% owner of Koenigsegg, and I mean the company!)To clarify something, in a straight line, I suspect that the Agera R may well be able to do 250mph+, maybe even 260mph+, but it would need to be somewhere like VW's test track where the Veyron's speed records were set. I just can't see it being at the Nurburgring, being driven by a man in a helmet but otherwise dressed in everyday clothes!
In this in-car movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoa6mloRf2Q Derek Bell states at 7:55 that his topspeed is 195 mph.
These 2 facts makes the 250 mph a little doubtfull, to say the least!
Edited by vincegail on Saturday 7th April 15:33
F1GTRUeno said:
Well I'd rather have to use the cheap Rover 45 controls in the Zonda than drive around in the entirely cheap and naff Koenigsegg.
The 'segg still sounds rubbish as well.
Shouldn't keep rising to the bait.. but looks beautifully finished to me:The 'segg still sounds rubbish as well.
Although the sound can be a bit supercharger whiny.(edit:Agera has turbos so sounds different)
Edited by stephen300o on Sunday 8th April 16:17
stephen3000 - Thanks for posting the clip of the CCR, forgotten that it was - briefly - the world's fastest production car. However, my point still stands, because that record was set at Nardo, which is a banked bowl and therefore doesn't give a true representation of a car's top speed - for the CCR, the top speed in a straight line could be 4-5mph faster. Kudos to the driver for being so brave. The recent Top Gear feature with the Aventador, Noble and Mclaren indicated that Nardo isn't necesarily the safest place to be going so fast!
vincegail - I remember that Evo feature - 'Lords Of The Ring'. Brilliantly, all the cars were owned by the same guy, who seemed sanguine even when his Koenigsegg ended up getting severely damaged, even wrote off. I remember being surprised at how the Koeniggsegg performed relatively poorly, given its massive power advantage over the other cars driven. Basseng commented that it was a better on road than track, massively quick in a straight line but restricted on track by a lack of low down torque, odd gear ratios and iffy brakes. Although the article is often dismissed as Pagani / Black Falcon propaganda, the Koenigsegg was undoubtedly easily beaten by the much less powerful Zonda F, a car that clearly handles on track a lot better. (For what it's worth, both cars, as well as the Enzo and Carrera GT, were however beaten by the track-focused Maserati MC12. Also, to demonstrate the folly of the pissing contest that is Nurburgring lap times, all of the supercars in the article and most others are slower than the considerably cheaper Nissan GTR!)
Getting back on topic, if the Agera R's speedo was showing 403kph at the 'ring, it doesn't mean that the car was actually doing that speed. I know it's a long straight, and even if the driver was carrying a fair bit of speed at the beginning, he's got to be able to slow down before crashing spectacularly. I remember reading an article in Performance Car many years ago, where two readers were lucky enough to win a drive at the 'ring in the RUF CTR Yellowbird, with Stefan Roser at the wheel - that car apparently reached an indicated 200mph+ on the straight, but was anyone independently recording? Ditto for the Agera R. Unless anyone can demonstrate to the contrary, all we seem to have for 'evidence' is the driver's claim.
vincegail - I remember that Evo feature - 'Lords Of The Ring'. Brilliantly, all the cars were owned by the same guy, who seemed sanguine even when his Koenigsegg ended up getting severely damaged, even wrote off. I remember being surprised at how the Koeniggsegg performed relatively poorly, given its massive power advantage over the other cars driven. Basseng commented that it was a better on road than track, massively quick in a straight line but restricted on track by a lack of low down torque, odd gear ratios and iffy brakes. Although the article is often dismissed as Pagani / Black Falcon propaganda, the Koenigsegg was undoubtedly easily beaten by the much less powerful Zonda F, a car that clearly handles on track a lot better. (For what it's worth, both cars, as well as the Enzo and Carrera GT, were however beaten by the track-focused Maserati MC12. Also, to demonstrate the folly of the pissing contest that is Nurburgring lap times, all of the supercars in the article and most others are slower than the considerably cheaper Nissan GTR!)
Getting back on topic, if the Agera R's speedo was showing 403kph at the 'ring, it doesn't mean that the car was actually doing that speed. I know it's a long straight, and even if the driver was carrying a fair bit of speed at the beginning, he's got to be able to slow down before crashing spectacularly. I remember reading an article in Performance Car many years ago, where two readers were lucky enough to win a drive at the 'ring in the RUF CTR Yellowbird, with Stefan Roser at the wheel - that car apparently reached an indicated 200mph+ on the straight, but was anyone independently recording? Ditto for the Agera R. Unless anyone can demonstrate to the contrary, all we seem to have for 'evidence' is the driver's claim.
The performance of the Agera R seems to be incredible;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0wYrhWxmPg&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WtlmpOKMG4&fea...
Performance aside the sound it makes is just incredible, imagine in real life what it sounds like....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0wYrhWxmPg&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WtlmpOKMG4&fea...
Performance aside the sound it makes is just incredible, imagine in real life what it sounds like....
BelfastBoy said:
stephen3000 - Thanks for posting the clip of the CCR, forgotten that it was - briefly - the world's fastest production car. However, my point still stands, because that record was set at Nardo, which is a banked bowl and therefore doesn't give a true representation of a car's top speed - for the CCR, the top speed in a straight line could be 4-5mph faster. Kudos to the driver for being so brave. The recent Top Gear feature with the Aventador, Noble and Mclaren indicated that Nardo isn't necesarily the safest place to be going so fast!
vincegail - I remember that Evo feature - 'Lords Of The Ring'. Brilliantly, all the cars were owned by the same guy, who seemed sanguine even when his Koenigsegg ended up getting severely damaged, even wrote off. I remember being surprised at how the Koeniggsegg performed relatively poorly, given its massive power advantage over the other cars driven. Basseng commented that it was a better on road than track, massively quick in a straight line but restricted on track by a lack of low down torque, odd gear ratios and iffy brakes. Although the article is often dismissed as Pagani / Black Falcon propaganda, the Koenigsegg was undoubtedly easily beaten by the much less powerful Zonda F, a car that clearly handles on track a lot better. (For what it's worth, both cars, as well as the Enzo and Carrera GT, were however beaten by the track-focused Maserati MC12. Also, to demonstrate the folly of the pissing contest that is Nurburgring lap times, all of the supercars in the article and most others are slower than the considerably cheaper Nissan GTR!)
Getting back on topic, if the Agera R's speedo was showing 403kph at the 'ring, it doesn't mean that the car was actually doing that speed. I know it's a long straight, and even if the driver was carrying a fair bit of speed at the beginning, he's got to be able to slow down before crashing spectacularly. I remember reading an article in Performance Car many years ago, where two readers were lucky enough to win a drive at the 'ring in the RUF CTR Yellowbird, with Stefan Roser at the wheel - that car apparently reached an indicated 200mph+ on the straight, but was anyone independently recording? Ditto for the Agera R. Unless anyone can demonstrate to the contrary, all we seem to have for 'evidence' is the driver's claim.
Horst von Saurma did a 194.5 in a CCR several years prior to Basseng's/Pagani's PR show and also did a almost equal lap time on a different gearing than Paga... Team Black Falcon's CCX. If you don't know the story:vincegail - I remember that Evo feature - 'Lords Of The Ring'. Brilliantly, all the cars were owned by the same guy, who seemed sanguine even when his Koenigsegg ended up getting severely damaged, even wrote off. I remember being surprised at how the Koeniggsegg performed relatively poorly, given its massive power advantage over the other cars driven. Basseng commented that it was a better on road than track, massively quick in a straight line but restricted on track by a lack of low down torque, odd gear ratios and iffy brakes. Although the article is often dismissed as Pagani / Black Falcon propaganda, the Koenigsegg was undoubtedly easily beaten by the much less powerful Zonda F, a car that clearly handles on track a lot better. (For what it's worth, both cars, as well as the Enzo and Carrera GT, were however beaten by the track-focused Maserati MC12. Also, to demonstrate the folly of the pissing contest that is Nurburgring lap times, all of the supercars in the article and most others are slower than the considerably cheaper Nissan GTR!)
Getting back on topic, if the Agera R's speedo was showing 403kph at the 'ring, it doesn't mean that the car was actually doing that speed. I know it's a long straight, and even if the driver was carrying a fair bit of speed at the beginning, he's got to be able to slow down before crashing spectacularly. I remember reading an article in Performance Car many years ago, where two readers were lucky enough to win a drive at the 'ring in the RUF CTR Yellowbird, with Stefan Roser at the wheel - that car apparently reached an indicated 200mph+ on the straight, but was anyone independently recording? Ditto for the Agera R. Unless anyone can demonstrate to the contrary, all we seem to have for 'evidence' is the driver's claim.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/koenigsegg-forum-...
The CCX has done a unofficial 205 mph on Döttinger Höhe. The CCX does 0-186 in 21.9 (SportAuto) compared to the Agera R's 14.53. The Agera R's twin turbos has a broad +1000 Nm available at 2700 rpm while the CCX's peaky superchargers comes to life at 5500. It has 7 gears compared to 6. Far more torque. Etc.
Check this side-by-side comparison with the Veyron SS and notice how it pulls at higher speeds while the Veyron SS comes to a grinding halt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-xd7DJEBC8
And there's tons of tuned cars (UGRs etc) doing 250 mph from a dig every year on the Texas Mile events. Koenigsegg's test track is less than a mile long and they're comfortably doing 0-200-0 mph from a dig.
Add to this what the author of this topic has to say about their little drag race with a Zonda F at the same event:
"UPDATE: Here's a video and report from Dale of Bridge To Gantry fame in the chase car. They manage to go 174 MPH but still get blown around by the Agera R!
'In the video above we started about 80mph 'too slow' and the damn King's Egg STILL did around 320kmh before braking for the car park... The speed of this car is unreal. It's 1200bhp! (<-- note; actually it's 940 bhp running on 98 octane)
Yes, I'm the lucky bar steward who blagged his way on to the passenger seat of the Pagani above."
http://jalopnik.com/5899883/koenigsegg-agera-r-hit...
So all evidence points towards it being capable. The question is: but is it really?
To answer this question for myself I did a rough and dirty little video analysis of this second video showing the car in a still shot as it passes in it's claimed 400 km/h run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fplRcQVpNps
Here are the frames:
http://www.picfront.org/d/8Bgb
Now. We know that the Agera R is 4,293 m bumper to bumper and it's covering about 105% of it's own length from one frame to another (frames 3 to 6 in the gif are the most interesting reference points since they contain the least amount of ghosting). 4,293 m * 105% = 4,50765 m. To know how fast it's travelling now that we know how many meters it covers in one frame we need to multiply it with the frame ratio. In this case the video has 25 frames per second (confirmed with supercarsV12 who shot the video), so 25 fps * 4,50765 = 112,69125 m/s. Now we have it's speed in meters per second. We multiply this with the amount of seconds in an hour - 112,69125 m/s * 3600 secs = 405688,5 m/h. And then finally we convert it to km/h; 405688,5 m/h = 405,7 km/h.
So approximately 400 km/h then. You could get an exact number with more time and effort, but ~400:ish is good enough in my book, all things considered.
But the real story here isn't the speed itself but that they managed to do it without hitting the wall. 250 mph had been done plenty of times on shorter distances and from digs, but as far as I know no one has been brave enough to attempt it on the Döttinger Höhe which points towards remarkable high speed stability in both acceleration and braking. Or plain stupidity. Or a little bit of both.
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