RE: Is Lotus in proper bother this time?
Discussion
You can read all of this with the "Rose Tinteds" on as much as you like, but the fact is, they aren't selling enough units (for whatever reason), so aren't making a profit and in this climate, no one is going to prop them up in an open ended fashion, however sad that is for the fans (particularly Brit ones) - I say that as a satisfied previous customer/owner.
From another Lotus thread:
For the record I have an Elise and really want to see the company survive. I hope Bahar's plan works.
Kimbers34 said:
This is my own opinion (and yes I am an Automotive Professional like my father...well not quite like him, I went a different route). For a start, can I say that the Evora was the right product at the right time for Lotus. With no new model for 8 years MJK developed and produced a car that has won innumerate awards and accolades, on a shoestring and in just 18 months! If anything the Evora was the start of the comeback for Lotus.
If you remember the car was priced at under £50k and the chassis was developed to house at least one and prob 2 more new models. The Esprit (circa £90k) and a new supercar (Circa £150k). This would give you a natural progression in models and appeal to the broadest client base, from £25k base Elise to £150k Supercar and everything in between).
Where the Evora has gone wrong is constant price hikes and lack of Marketing and support (which was all put into the "new vision" hence a lack of focus on current models). Plus uncertainties with dealer numbers being cut and lack of dealer support in countries such as the US.
Lets also not forget that MJK wiped the companies debts out and made a profit for the first time in 2008. The 5 year plan was in place and progressing well with many of the models you see now already planned and in progress before he retired due to ill health (for example, Supercharged Evora).
FYI my father has had no contact or discussions with the company and no longer represents them in any way...or has an opinion. I on the other hand do. I just want Lotus to survive and anyone who is not best for what is a true British institution, gone. One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that a British Motor Industry without Lotus just doesn't bear thinking about.
I think he's right- develop the Evora, spin off an Esprit from that platform and then develop the new models once the Evora family is established, with the new Esprit as the final model in that range.If you remember the car was priced at under £50k and the chassis was developed to house at least one and prob 2 more new models. The Esprit (circa £90k) and a new supercar (Circa £150k). This would give you a natural progression in models and appeal to the broadest client base, from £25k base Elise to £150k Supercar and everything in between).
Where the Evora has gone wrong is constant price hikes and lack of Marketing and support (which was all put into the "new vision" hence a lack of focus on current models). Plus uncertainties with dealer numbers being cut and lack of dealer support in countries such as the US.
Lets also not forget that MJK wiped the companies debts out and made a profit for the first time in 2008. The 5 year plan was in place and progressing well with many of the models you see now already planned and in progress before he retired due to ill health (for example, Supercharged Evora).
FYI my father has had no contact or discussions with the company and no longer represents them in any way...or has an opinion. I on the other hand do. I just want Lotus to survive and anyone who is not best for what is a true British institution, gone. One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that a British Motor Industry without Lotus just doesn't bear thinking about.
Edited by Kimbers34 on Wednesday 11th April 14:58
For the record I have an Elise and really want to see the company survive. I hope Bahar's plan works.
i wonder how many cars they sold over the last 12 months, very few i fear. for too long they have been a company that is spending and not earning, and in a worldwide recession (lets face it, we are in the middle of an especially foul one) companies like this have a very limited shelf life before the investors/credit line pulls the plug. thats what is happening and i can't see anyone who will find sufficient value to save it (certainly not the chinese or indians). the engineering knowledge pool will be picked up when the workforce are issued their p45's. it's very very sad, but the market simply can't support Lotus products at the moment.
Edited by seawise on Wednesday 11th April 16:41
seawise said:
i wonder how many cars they sold over the last 12 months, very few i fear. for too long they have been a company that is spending and not earning, and in a worldwide recession (lets face it, we are in the middle of an especially foul one) companies like this have a very limited shelf life before the investors/credit line pulls the plug. thats what is happening and i can't see anyone who will find sufficient value to save it (certainly not the chinese or indians). the engineering knowledge pool will be picked up when the workforce are issued their p45's. it's very very sad, but the market simply can't support Lotus products at the moment.
I disagree with this. You only have to look at he premium car sector to see they are the only ones who are making money at the moment. If Lotus had a good SUV on sale right now to go with their sports cars their future would be much rosier.Edited by seawise on Wednesday 11th April 16:41
Nick
sisu said:
it is a wonder why they didn't use the AMG 6.3 V8 when they got the engine guy from AMG like a Pagani rather than develop their own. If they wanted a juicy motor rather than a Camry V6 in the evora. The evora chassis is being extended and built for the new infiniti so was possible.
What would be in it for AMG?Very few units in volume terms, and the likelihood of close association with cars that break down for reasons out of AMG's control.
If you were AMG boss and an enquiry landed on your desk from Lotus to buy engines for a car they haven't yet built, what would you do with it?
SeanyD said:
Q Car said:
I'm not in a position to pretend to know what the required business model is to redeem Lotus' situation, but if anyone on here actually does, then they shouldn't be posting on here, they should be on their way to Hethel to explain it to someone!
I truly miss TVR and I think that British society, not just it's automotive industry is poorer without it. The thought of us potentially losing what I see as the final bastion of British Automotive Genius horrifies me and my one hope is that they can come out of this in one piece and in a position to design and deliver cars that are true to Chapman's values.
Well said, looking at the TVR Factory Photos thread, almost brings a tear to my eye.I truly miss TVR and I think that British society, not just it's automotive industry is poorer without it. The thought of us potentially losing what I see as the final bastion of British Automotive Genius horrifies me and my one hope is that they can come out of this in one piece and in a position to design and deliver cars that are true to Chapman's values.
It's a crying shame that we Brits see the Japanes & Germans (OK, the Italians too) as the only performance car manufacturers. The vast majority are sucked in to media drivel on perceived reliability issues with locally built cars.
Nick
hebbhog said:
It appears that Lotus recently have been trying to get the equivalent of many years marketing exposure in a shorter time frame as possible, part of this has been trying to build a lifestyle brand rather than just a name known to 'car people' or F1 fans. However much one hates the leather jackets and key rings, it must be a good source of revenue and profile raising otherwise the rest of automotive industry would not be doing it.
Additionally they have worked very hard on promoting their racing heritage, something which has not been done properly for a long time. Their efforts in Indycar, F1, GT racing as well as Kart racing really should be applauded and viewed as a positive though it could be too much too late...
Good points.Additionally they have worked very hard on promoting their racing heritage, something which has not been done properly for a long time. Their efforts in Indycar, F1, GT racing as well as Kart racing really should be applauded and viewed as a positive though it could be too much too late...
How likely is it that Tony Fernandes ends up buying them out? But then all the arguing between Lotus and Lotus about who can be called Lotus would have been pointless. Then again, the Caterham 7 is originally a Lotus design, so having them in the same group would be pretty cool. Plus, if he got his hands on the Lotus F1 team (the one with Kimi), then he could run a similar model to Red Bull/Toro Rosso; put the best drivers in the Lotus team, and the young upcoming ones in Caterham. I'm just praying whoever ends up running Lotus gets rid of that Mr Beats rapper bloke, the decision to hire him is probably up there with the stupidest decisions ever made.
HorneyMX5 said:
I disagree with this. You only have to look at he premium car sector to see they are the only ones who are making money at the moment. If Lotus had a good SUV on sale right now to go with their sports cars their future would be much rosier.
Nick
Where would Lotus get the money to develop a good SUV? Nick
Niche, heart-chosen sportscars are one thing - proper head-chosen vehicles with proper interiors, proper doors, proper technology and more to the point, proper competitors are quite another.
DanB7290 said:
How likely is it that Tony Fernandes ends up buying them out? But then all the arguing between Lotus and Lotus about who can be called Lotus would have been pointless. Then again, the Caterham 7 is originally a Lotus design, so having them in the same group would be pretty cool. Plus, if he got his hands on the Lotus F1 team (the one with Kimi), then he could run a similar model to Red Bull/Toro Rosso; put the best drivers in the Lotus team, and the young upcoming ones in Caterham. I'm just praying whoever ends up running Lotus gets rid of that Mr Beats rapper bloke, the decision to hire him is probably up there with the stupidest decisions ever made.
Extremely unlikely - he's moved on. He has Caterham and a football team now. His resources are not unlimited and his plans have changed. He might come into play if there's a fire sale and he's interested in getting some new designs for Caterham at a bargain basement price.diddly69 said:
alexpa said:
Honda! Please buy Lotus!
HorneyMX5 said:
seawise said:
i wonder how many cars they sold over the last 12 months, very few i fear. for too long they have been a company that is spending and not earning, and in a worldwide recession (lets face it, we are in the middle of an especially foul one) companies like this have a very limited shelf life before the investors/credit line pulls the plug. thats what is happening and i can't see anyone who will find sufficient value to save it (certainly not the chinese or indians). the engineering knowledge pool will be picked up when the workforce are issued their p45's. it's very very sad, but the market simply can't support Lotus products at the moment.
I disagree with this. You only have to look at he premium car sector to see they are the only ones who are making money at the moment. If Lotus had a good SUV on sale right now to go with their sports cars their future would be much rosier.Edited by seawise on Wednesday 11th April 16:41
Nick
Lotus really fights back.
[Lotus said]
Lotus Cars
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story….
Take a little look at what we found online. Don’t you think it’s funny? We do. We had a good old giggle. After all, we love a bit of self irony, just as well really. Although it’s funny, this one’s not accurate but then again, why let the facts get in the way of a good story? The inconvenient truth is – surprise, surprise – we have never said that there are no problems at Lotus.
So whilst lots of people obviously feel the need to comment on Lotus’ current situation in the absence of proper facts or evidence, we can’t ignore these particular mistruths any longer even if we would like to, so we have decided to turn a negative into a positive and use this hilarious piece of ‘art’ to set the record straight regarding the status quo at Group Lotus and try to return a little stability to a fast changing situation.
False rumour #1: Dany Bahar is no longer CEO of Group Lotus.
Fact: Rubbish – Dany Bahar still is.
False rumour #2: Dato’ Sri Syed is no longer Managing Director of Proton.
Fact: Again rubbish. He still is.
You can thank good old Tony Fernandes for these two. Don’t take everything he tweets too seriously – perhaps he’s still frustrated about owning Caterham instead of Lotus and the fact that he fights HRT and Marussia instead of Mercedes and Ferrari in F1.
And whilst we’re on the subject of jokes - do you know the latest F1 joke? Mike Gascoyne, Caterham Group’s Chief Technical Officer, has gone missing. Why? He’s looking for the 30 to 40 points he predicted for the last F1 season. Funny.
Speaking of F1: It seems that one special so called ‘independent’ source is at the root of the lion’s share of damaging rumours and misleading stories. The delightful Joe Saward which leads us nicely to….
False rumour #3: Joe Saward is JUST an independent journalist.
Fact: He is an active Director on the Caterham Group Board.
And unlike some, we don’t want to get too personal, so we’ll leave it to you to judge how ‘independent’ his stories about Lotus are.
False rumour #4: Group Lotus is no longer involved in F1.
Fact: Lotus F1 Team and Group Lotus have reshaped their commercial relationship earlier this year. The new governance agreement signifies the continued commitment of Group Lotus to the team and the sport.
Group Lotus’ branding and marketing rights and subsequent activities remain unaffected by the new agreement until at least 2017. Alongside continued branding and title partnership status, Group Lotus is also the exclusive master licensee for all Lotus F1 Team merchandise.
The new agreement was reached following Group Lotus owners Proton providing team owners Genii with a £30m loan which is repayable within three years. In order to secure the loan Genii used 100% of the F1 team’s assets as collateral meaning that under the conditions of the loan agreement Proton have been given full title guarantee to all plant, machinery, show cars, computers, office and the Lotus F1 Team headquarters.
In addition Proton retains the rights to purchase 10% of the F1 team. Another 10% share option will be activated if the team default on their loan obligations with Proton.
Again we leave it to your judgement how ‘bad’ Lotus’ current situation in F1 is. And speaking of bad situations…..
False rumour #5: Group Lotus is going into administration.
Fact: Rubbish. The takeover of our parent company Proton by DRB-HICOM couldn’t have come at a worse time, but up until that point Proton was (and still remains) fully committed to our five year business plan to create jobs and to expand the factory and business. With the takeover process the funding has been restricted and DRB-HICOM is taking time to understand what to do with the business. DRB-HICOM is currently in the middle of due diligence of Group Lotus and there have been and continue to be positive discussions between Group Lotus senior management and senior management at DRB-HICOM both here in Hethel and in Malaysia. At no point has DRB-HICOM indicated to Group Lotus that it intends to put the company into administration. The over-active rumour mill is seriously damaging our business reputation, image and credibility but it is what it is.
The simple fact is, and we haven’t denied this - Lotus is going through a very difficult phase at the moment but we are showing true fighting spirit every day in trying to keep this vision alive. This is also a fact – no matter what people outside of Lotus may say or tweet or blog. [/Lotus Said]
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&...
[Lotus said]
Lotus Cars
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story….
Take a little look at what we found online. Don’t you think it’s funny? We do. We had a good old giggle. After all, we love a bit of self irony, just as well really. Although it’s funny, this one’s not accurate but then again, why let the facts get in the way of a good story? The inconvenient truth is – surprise, surprise – we have never said that there are no problems at Lotus.
So whilst lots of people obviously feel the need to comment on Lotus’ current situation in the absence of proper facts or evidence, we can’t ignore these particular mistruths any longer even if we would like to, so we have decided to turn a negative into a positive and use this hilarious piece of ‘art’ to set the record straight regarding the status quo at Group Lotus and try to return a little stability to a fast changing situation.
False rumour #1: Dany Bahar is no longer CEO of Group Lotus.
Fact: Rubbish – Dany Bahar still is.
False rumour #2: Dato’ Sri Syed is no longer Managing Director of Proton.
Fact: Again rubbish. He still is.
You can thank good old Tony Fernandes for these two. Don’t take everything he tweets too seriously – perhaps he’s still frustrated about owning Caterham instead of Lotus and the fact that he fights HRT and Marussia instead of Mercedes and Ferrari in F1.
And whilst we’re on the subject of jokes - do you know the latest F1 joke? Mike Gascoyne, Caterham Group’s Chief Technical Officer, has gone missing. Why? He’s looking for the 30 to 40 points he predicted for the last F1 season. Funny.
Speaking of F1: It seems that one special so called ‘independent’ source is at the root of the lion’s share of damaging rumours and misleading stories. The delightful Joe Saward which leads us nicely to….
False rumour #3: Joe Saward is JUST an independent journalist.
Fact: He is an active Director on the Caterham Group Board.
And unlike some, we don’t want to get too personal, so we’ll leave it to you to judge how ‘independent’ his stories about Lotus are.
False rumour #4: Group Lotus is no longer involved in F1.
Fact: Lotus F1 Team and Group Lotus have reshaped their commercial relationship earlier this year. The new governance agreement signifies the continued commitment of Group Lotus to the team and the sport.
Group Lotus’ branding and marketing rights and subsequent activities remain unaffected by the new agreement until at least 2017. Alongside continued branding and title partnership status, Group Lotus is also the exclusive master licensee for all Lotus F1 Team merchandise.
The new agreement was reached following Group Lotus owners Proton providing team owners Genii with a £30m loan which is repayable within three years. In order to secure the loan Genii used 100% of the F1 team’s assets as collateral meaning that under the conditions of the loan agreement Proton have been given full title guarantee to all plant, machinery, show cars, computers, office and the Lotus F1 Team headquarters.
In addition Proton retains the rights to purchase 10% of the F1 team. Another 10% share option will be activated if the team default on their loan obligations with Proton.
Again we leave it to your judgement how ‘bad’ Lotus’ current situation in F1 is. And speaking of bad situations…..
False rumour #5: Group Lotus is going into administration.
Fact: Rubbish. The takeover of our parent company Proton by DRB-HICOM couldn’t have come at a worse time, but up until that point Proton was (and still remains) fully committed to our five year business plan to create jobs and to expand the factory and business. With the takeover process the funding has been restricted and DRB-HICOM is taking time to understand what to do with the business. DRB-HICOM is currently in the middle of due diligence of Group Lotus and there have been and continue to be positive discussions between Group Lotus senior management and senior management at DRB-HICOM both here in Hethel and in Malaysia. At no point has DRB-HICOM indicated to Group Lotus that it intends to put the company into administration. The over-active rumour mill is seriously damaging our business reputation, image and credibility but it is what it is.
The simple fact is, and we haven’t denied this - Lotus is going through a very difficult phase at the moment but we are showing true fighting spirit every day in trying to keep this vision alive. This is also a fact – no matter what people outside of Lotus may say or tweet or blog. [/Lotus Said]
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1146106&...
Just found this on another forum, statement from Lotus:
“The new Proton owners DRB-HICOM are currently in the middle of their due diligence of Group Lotus. There have been and continue to be positive discussions between Group Lotus senior management and senior management at DRB-HICOM both here in Hethel and in Malaysia. Despite various rumours in the media to the contrary, at no point has DRB-HICOM indicated to Group Lotus that they intend to put the company into administration and we welcome the opportunity to put that rumour along with incorrect speculation that production has stopped, that Dany Bahar is no longer CEO and that we are no longer involved in F1 to bed.
It’s no secret that we are going through a very difficult time at the moment due to the change in ownership but we’re doing everything we can to get through this period and come out the other side stronger than before. We’re very grateful for the continued support we receive from the people of Norfolk and all over the world.”
So, this story is nonsense, started by a board member at Caterham and Tony Fernandes. Question, will PH do anything about clarifying their own article? The fact the Joe Saward started this and that he works for Caterham can be identified online anytime. It may offend the "told you so" crowd but how about some responsible journalism highlighting what has happened here?
“The new Proton owners DRB-HICOM are currently in the middle of their due diligence of Group Lotus. There have been and continue to be positive discussions between Group Lotus senior management and senior management at DRB-HICOM both here in Hethel and in Malaysia. Despite various rumours in the media to the contrary, at no point has DRB-HICOM indicated to Group Lotus that they intend to put the company into administration and we welcome the opportunity to put that rumour along with incorrect speculation that production has stopped, that Dany Bahar is no longer CEO and that we are no longer involved in F1 to bed.
It’s no secret that we are going through a very difficult time at the moment due to the change in ownership but we’re doing everything we can to get through this period and come out the other side stronger than before. We’re very grateful for the continued support we receive from the people of Norfolk and all over the world.”
So, this story is nonsense, started by a board member at Caterham and Tony Fernandes. Question, will PH do anything about clarifying their own article? The fact the Joe Saward started this and that he works for Caterham can be identified online anytime. It may offend the "told you so" crowd but how about some responsible journalism highlighting what has happened here?
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