RE: Is Lotus in proper bother this time?
Discussion
Japveesix said:
It doesn't help that their proposed new range of 4 or 5 cars to fit all areas of the market all look almost exactely the same....
Hardly innovative design there
It's a good job nobody else does that then.... Well apart from Audi. Oh, and Porsche. But apart from those unsuccessful, nearly at the wall, companies there's nobody else that has a common family look. Hardly innovative design there
I guess though you could say that BMWs all look pretty similar these days, and maybe Mercedes have a fairly standard look to them. Oh, and then there's VW that have been plastering the same front end across all their range.
But apart from Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes and VW, all of which are really struggling these days, nobody else has a standard design theme.
Oh s
t, just realised that Aston Martins all look the same. But apart from Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, VW and Aston Martin.... I'll stop there cos I'm being tedious...
Dusty964 said:
I cant speak for anyone else, but the greatest thing that could happen is that they sold the rights to the original Elise to Caterham, to go with their other amazing car.
I disagree.With the benefit of hindsight, Chapman made a terrible decision when he sold the production rights to the S4 Seven to Graham Nearn.
The Seven has endured and become a significant competitor to the Elise and Caterham Cars has now become a thorn in Lotus's side for a whole bunch of other reasons.
Selling the Elise to Caterham (do they actually want it?) would simply compound the problem.
Why would you hand a competitor a rod to beat you with?
Lotus was always best at selling small, light, relatively affordable cars. Parts bin engineering and crap build quality doesn't grate at that sort of level.
The original Lotus Seven, the Elan and the Elise are wonderful cars.
The drive upmarket in the Seventies was not wholly successful as the cars were never sufficiently well developed or as well finished as Ferrari or Porsche's offerings.
I absolutely love my old Esprit. I even bought the bloody thing back after having foolishly sold it. But let's be honest, it is hardly in the same league as a Ferrari 328 in terms of quality, sophistication or finish.
Lotus will suffer the same challenges if they have another go at chasing the top end of the market.
The way that Lotus seems to be marketing itself worries me. Tasteless special editions, association with all sorts of weirdos and wildly optimistic promises for the future.
The last time I cringed as much was when TVR introduced their "Orgasmic Living" marketing disaster.
Superhoop said:
Hasn't Tony Fernandes (who owns Caterham cars and the mighty QPR) just invested in a new R&D centre not far from Hethel?
Tony is biding his time! The Lotus name lawsuit was a waste of time and money but showed his intent. He's backed off and is letting Lotus implode on its own.Since we posted this story Lotus has released the following statement:
Well it was on the Lotus 'News' site last night but now seems to have gone? either someone has had an almighty B***king and hopefully been sacked or maybe just maybe the site was hacked....
Like him or loathe him I am not sure DB or any marketing exec would have authorized that release
But what is very much needed is a profesional clear rational statement as to exactly what is happening
Well it was on the Lotus 'News' site last night but now seems to have gone? either someone has had an almighty B***king and hopefully been sacked or maybe just maybe the site was hacked....
Like him or loathe him I am not sure DB or any marketing exec would have authorized that release
But what is very much needed is a profesional clear rational statement as to exactly what is happening
Toaster said:
But what is very much needed is a profesional clear rational statement as to exactly what is happening
That's easy enough to say, but if you've ever been involved in company takeover situations you will be aware that,a) Lotus is a very small piece of the total Malaysian takeover,
b) There's probably no-one in UK who really knows what's going on, and
c) The bidder itself probably wont know what it wants to do until later in the process.
Unfortunately this results in a certain amount of chaos and uncertainty at customer level which is far from helpful to the process of actually selling cars!
Early certainty would clearly be a positive thing for Lotus. Whether it will happen remains to be seen. Bahar needs to get his factory building and selling some Exige V6 convertibles mighty quick if the company intends to stay in business.
Pat H said:
I disagree.
With the benefit of hindsight, Chapman made a terrible decision when he sold the production rights to the S4 Seven to Graham Nearn.
The Seven has endured and become a significant competitor to the Elise and Caterham Cars has now become a thorn in Lotus's side for a whole bunch of other reasons.
Selling the Elise to Caterham (do they actually want it?) would simply compound the problem.
Why would you hand a competitor a rod to beat you with?
Lotus was always best at selling small, light, relatively affordable cars. Parts bin engineering and crap build quality doesn't grate at that sort of level.
The original Lotus Seven, the Elan and the Elise are wonderful cars.
The drive upmarket in the Seventies was not wholly successful as the cars were never sufficiently well developed or as well finished as Ferrari or Porsche's offerings.
I absolutely love my old Esprit. I even bought the bloody thing back after having foolishly sold it. But let's be honest, it is hardly in the same league as a Ferrari 328 in terms of quality, sophistication or finish.
Lotus will suffer the same challenges if they have another go at chasing the top end of the market.
The way that Lotus seems to be marketing itself worries me. Tasteless special editions, association with all sorts of weirdos and wildly optimistic promises for the future.
The last time I cringed as much was when TVR introduced their "Orgasmic Living" marketing disaster.
I agree. Lotus sold the rights to the Seven because they wanted to move away from the basic sports car end of the market and sell more expensive cars, 50 years later the Seven is still selling well and people still want basic sports cars. In the 90s Lotus launched another basic sports car, the Elise, it sold well and was a success. Since then Lotus have, once again, been trying to move away from the basic sports car end of the market and sell more expensive cars. Why don't they get the message and concentrate on what they are good at?With the benefit of hindsight, Chapman made a terrible decision when he sold the production rights to the S4 Seven to Graham Nearn.
The Seven has endured and become a significant competitor to the Elise and Caterham Cars has now become a thorn in Lotus's side for a whole bunch of other reasons.
Selling the Elise to Caterham (do they actually want it?) would simply compound the problem.
Why would you hand a competitor a rod to beat you with?
Lotus was always best at selling small, light, relatively affordable cars. Parts bin engineering and crap build quality doesn't grate at that sort of level.
The original Lotus Seven, the Elan and the Elise are wonderful cars.
The drive upmarket in the Seventies was not wholly successful as the cars were never sufficiently well developed or as well finished as Ferrari or Porsche's offerings.
I absolutely love my old Esprit. I even bought the bloody thing back after having foolishly sold it. But let's be honest, it is hardly in the same league as a Ferrari 328 in terms of quality, sophistication or finish.
Lotus will suffer the same challenges if they have another go at chasing the top end of the market.
The way that Lotus seems to be marketing itself worries me. Tasteless special editions, association with all sorts of weirdos and wildly optimistic promises for the future.
The last time I cringed as much was when TVR introduced their "Orgasmic Living" marketing disaster.
If people want an expensive, luxury sports car there are plenty of manufacturers to choose from, most of them with greater presige and more relevant sector experience than Lotus. People still want basic, lightweight, fun sports cars, who is better placed than Lotus to supply them?
I don’t know what it costs Lotus to build the Elise but I reckon if Lotus could make a small profit on a base Elise priced at £23K-£24k or thereabouts they would sell a significant number. I understand that the base Elise at £29K is not a high volume seller (by Lotus standards). I know the MX-5 is perceived as soft by many people but it’s a well engineered, well built sports car that is only slightly slower but significantly cheaper than the base Elise.
A few decades ago Aston Martin sold barely a hundred cars a year, Bentley was a re-badged Rolls Royce, Rolls Royce sold a few hundred cars a year. All three companies now sell thousands more cars and afaik make reasonable profits.
What changed for these marques? A mainstream car company recognised their value invested millions in developing new cars and then made regular profits from a rejuvenated marque.
It is perfectly feasible for a long term investor to put millions into Lotus and expect a similar return. The modular sports cars they are developing is the way to go.
What changed for these marques? A mainstream car company recognised their value invested millions in developing new cars and then made regular profits from a rejuvenated marque.
It is perfectly feasible for a long term investor to put millions into Lotus and expect a similar return. The modular sports cars they are developing is the way to go.
I am a middle aged Lotus owner. I have known and admired Lotus for quite some time, but could never quite get excited about the Elise or Exige because despite beimg desirable and beautiful to look at, I simply found them too niche and impractical to get in and out of as a daily driver or even weekend use. I'm a big lad and 6'2"
When Lotus announced the Evora my plans for a Porsche 911 instantly dissolved. Simple as that.
Why? Well, here was a car that looked absolutely sensational, was easy to get in and out of for tall people, used a reliable and proven Toyota drivetrain, sounded great, had a great interior, and was a hand-built low-volume car that would be about 1,000 times as rare as a 911, which I saw on every second street corner.
So I just needed to wait for an automatic version since arthitis in my left knee has put paid to a manual. As soon as the IPS landed in my country I test drove one (hard) on twisty roads for 100km, grinned like a drunk monkey and took delivery of the same demo car a week later.
Was I worried about the price? ($147,000 here). Nope, it was half the price of a base 911 and cheaper than a Boxster or Cayman, GT-R, M3, SLK 55 (insert ubqituous sports car here)
Was I worried about the 1430kg weight? Nope, it handled so beautifully on that sublime chassis, weight was irrelevant.
Was I worred about buying a low volume car from a company with a checkered history? Nope, in fact that was part of the appeal, the charm, the rarity, the history, the brand.
So with the news, blogs, PRs, tweets and hysteria rampant on the internet in the past 48 hours, did I do today? Well, Imwork from home, and the Evora is my daily driver. So I found some twisty roads and had a coffee in a nice village 30 minutes away:
And that, my friends is what Lotus is all about. Making cars that are used, driven, cherished, loved, and coveted - and most of all, rare as hell and the receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
When Lotus announced the Evora my plans for a Porsche 911 instantly dissolved. Simple as that.
Why? Well, here was a car that looked absolutely sensational, was easy to get in and out of for tall people, used a reliable and proven Toyota drivetrain, sounded great, had a great interior, and was a hand-built low-volume car that would be about 1,000 times as rare as a 911, which I saw on every second street corner.
So I just needed to wait for an automatic version since arthitis in my left knee has put paid to a manual. As soon as the IPS landed in my country I test drove one (hard) on twisty roads for 100km, grinned like a drunk monkey and took delivery of the same demo car a week later.
Was I worried about the price? ($147,000 here). Nope, it was half the price of a base 911 and cheaper than a Boxster or Cayman, GT-R, M3, SLK 55 (insert ubqituous sports car here)
Was I worried about the 1430kg weight? Nope, it handled so beautifully on that sublime chassis, weight was irrelevant.
Was I worred about buying a low volume car from a company with a checkered history? Nope, in fact that was part of the appeal, the charm, the rarity, the history, the brand.
So with the news, blogs, PRs, tweets and hysteria rampant on the internet in the past 48 hours, did I do today? Well, Imwork from home, and the Evora is my daily driver. So I found some twisty roads and had a coffee in a nice village 30 minutes away:
And that, my friends is what Lotus is all about. Making cars that are used, driven, cherished, loved, and coveted - and most of all, rare as hell and the receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
Sorry Lotus, but Syed is no longer Managing Director at Proton, having handed in his resignation. Sure, he has to serve out his notice period, but after that he's gone.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/litee/malaysia/...
Whoever issued this press release needs to take a long, permanent holiday. The way this is being handled is ridiculous. I'm sure Bahar crapped a brick when he read this moronic rant over breakfast.
If anyone's going to buy Lotus, they're probably wondering how many millions they can knock off the valuation. I understand the need to set things straight, but keep it professional.
Although being vague with facts only allows 'the media' the opportunity to run away with juicy make believe headlines.
Edited by Hellbound on Thursday 12th April 12:11
koorby said:
receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
I must admit, back when I had a 1997 Chimaera 500 and my wife a 1990 Lotus Elan SE Turbo, her friends would exclaim "you have a LOTUS?!" with awe and wonderment (in a good way), despite it being worth a fraction of the value of my Chimaera. I'd invariably get "is it a Triumph?" or "aren't TVRs really unreliable?" about mine. Ho hum. 
koorby said:
I am a middle aged Lotus owner. I have known and admired Lotus for quite some time, but could never quite get excited about the Elise or Exige because despite beimg desirable and beautiful to look at, I simply found them too niche and impractical to get in and out of as a daily driver or even weekend use. I'm a big lad and 6'2"
When Lotus announced the Evora my plans for a Porsche 911 instantly dissolved. Simple as that.
Why? Well, here was a car that looked absolutely sensational, was easy to get in and out of for tall people, used a reliable and proven Toyota drivetrain, sounded great, had a great interior, and was a hand-built low-volume car that would be about 1,000 times as rare as a 911, which I saw on every second street corner.
So I just needed to wait for an automatic version since arthitis in my left knee has put paid to a manual. As soon as the IPS landed in my country I test drove one (hard) on twisty roads for 100km, grinned like a drunk monkey and took delivery of the same demo car a week later.
Was I worried about the price? ($147,000 here). Nope, it was half the price of a base 911 and cheaper than a Boxster or Cayman, GT-R, M3, SLK 55 (insert ubqituous sports car here)
Was I worried about the 1430kg weight? Nope, it handled so beautifully on that sublime chassis, weight was irrelevant.
Was I worred about buying a low volume car from a company with a checkered history? Nope, in fact that was part of the appeal, the charm, the rarity, the history, the brand.
So with the news, blogs, PRs, tweets and hysteria rampant on the internet in the past 48 hours, did I do today? Well, Imwork from home, and the Evora is my daily driver. So I found some twisty roads and had a coffee in a nice village 30 minutes away:
And that, my friends is what Lotus is all about. Making cars that are used, driven, cherished, loved, and coveted - and most of all, rare as hell and the receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
Well said. Can we all stop posting now. Otherwise we will be possibly creating a problem when does not exist.When Lotus announced the Evora my plans for a Porsche 911 instantly dissolved. Simple as that.
Why? Well, here was a car that looked absolutely sensational, was easy to get in and out of for tall people, used a reliable and proven Toyota drivetrain, sounded great, had a great interior, and was a hand-built low-volume car that would be about 1,000 times as rare as a 911, which I saw on every second street corner.
So I just needed to wait for an automatic version since arthitis in my left knee has put paid to a manual. As soon as the IPS landed in my country I test drove one (hard) on twisty roads for 100km, grinned like a drunk monkey and took delivery of the same demo car a week later.
Was I worried about the price? ($147,000 here). Nope, it was half the price of a base 911 and cheaper than a Boxster or Cayman, GT-R, M3, SLK 55 (insert ubqituous sports car here)
Was I worried about the 1430kg weight? Nope, it handled so beautifully on that sublime chassis, weight was irrelevant.
Was I worred about buying a low volume car from a company with a checkered history? Nope, in fact that was part of the appeal, the charm, the rarity, the history, the brand.
So with the news, blogs, PRs, tweets and hysteria rampant on the internet in the past 48 hours, did I do today? Well, Imwork from home, and the Evora is my daily driver. So I found some twisty roads and had a coffee in a nice village 30 minutes away:
And that, my friends is what Lotus is all about. Making cars that are used, driven, cherished, loved, and coveted - and most of all, rare as hell and the receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
To me the most likely formula model profile to succeed is:
Elise - Rehash mainstay, base models more power 200bhp. S range 300bhp. All Supercharged 4 cylinders. Offer stripped out road/track model also.
Exige / Exige Roadster - V6 nice new development, car different enough from the Elise to attract buyers, performance gains over old model. Roadster effectively V6 Elise with more aggressive different look to distinguish. Stripped out Road / Track model also.
Evora - GTE body for all. All supercharged as base model (may have had a chance at the the market segment) Minimum 330bhp for base. Stripped version also.
Eprit - They've done it before, market expecting one for years, loyal following and interest. sub 90k car though, thinking more 80k. Lends itself to one of the 5 new designs. V8 SC.
That's it. If you can't work those models, sell the company. Forget all the new models and extensive development plans costing silly money they dont have, dont run before you can walk. Elise / Exige and Evora effectively share same platform.
Keep manufacturing costs of different models to a minimum, all cars for global market (i.e Exige). I'm sure some analysis of market segment and opportunites would point you more in this direction than the bizarre multi model whole range development they have come up with. But what do I know!
Elise - Rehash mainstay, base models more power 200bhp. S range 300bhp. All Supercharged 4 cylinders. Offer stripped out road/track model also.
Exige / Exige Roadster - V6 nice new development, car different enough from the Elise to attract buyers, performance gains over old model. Roadster effectively V6 Elise with more aggressive different look to distinguish. Stripped out Road / Track model also.
Evora - GTE body for all. All supercharged as base model (may have had a chance at the the market segment) Minimum 330bhp for base. Stripped version also.
Eprit - They've done it before, market expecting one for years, loyal following and interest. sub 90k car though, thinking more 80k. Lends itself to one of the 5 new designs. V8 SC.
That's it. If you can't work those models, sell the company. Forget all the new models and extensive development plans costing silly money they dont have, dont run before you can walk. Elise / Exige and Evora effectively share same platform.
Keep manufacturing costs of different models to a minimum, all cars for global market (i.e Exige). I'm sure some analysis of market segment and opportunites would point you more in this direction than the bizarre multi model whole range development they have come up with. But what do I know!
B10 said:
koorby said:
I am a middle aged Lotus owner. I have known and admired Lotus for quite some time, but could never quite get excited about the Elise or Exige because despite beimg desirable and beautiful to look at, I simply found them too niche and impractical to get in and out of as a daily driver or even weekend use. I'm a big lad and 6'2"
When Lotus announced the Evora my plans for a Porsche 911 instantly dissolved. Simple as that.
Why? Well, here was a car that looked absolutely sensational, was easy to get in and out of for tall people, used a reliable and proven Toyota drivetrain, sounded great, had a great interior, and was a hand-built low-volume car that would be about 1,000 times as rare as a 911, which I saw on every second street corner.
So I just needed to wait for an automatic version since arthitis in my left knee has put paid to a manual. As soon as the IPS landed in my country I test drove one (hard) on twisty roads for 100km, grinned like a drunk monkey and took delivery of the same demo car a week later.
Was I worried about the price? ($147,000 here). Nope, it was half the price of a base 911 and cheaper than a Boxster or Cayman, GT-R, M3, SLK 55 (insert ubqituous sports car here)
Was I worried about the 1430kg weight? Nope, it handled so beautifully on that sublime chassis, weight was irrelevant.
Was I worred about buying a low volume car from a company with a checkered history? Nope, in fact that was part of the appeal, the charm, the rarity, the history, the brand.
So with the news, blogs, PRs, tweets and hysteria rampant on the internet in the past 48 hours, did I do today? Well, Imwork from home, and the Evora is my daily driver. So I found some twisty roads and had a coffee in a nice village 30 minutes away:
And that, my friends is what Lotus is all about. Making cars that are used, driven, cherished, loved, and coveted - and most of all, rare as hell and the receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
Well said. Can we all stop posting now. Otherwise we will be possibly creating a problem when does not exist.When Lotus announced the Evora my plans for a Porsche 911 instantly dissolved. Simple as that.
Why? Well, here was a car that looked absolutely sensational, was easy to get in and out of for tall people, used a reliable and proven Toyota drivetrain, sounded great, had a great interior, and was a hand-built low-volume car that would be about 1,000 times as rare as a 911, which I saw on every second street corner.
So I just needed to wait for an automatic version since arthitis in my left knee has put paid to a manual. As soon as the IPS landed in my country I test drove one (hard) on twisty roads for 100km, grinned like a drunk monkey and took delivery of the same demo car a week later.
Was I worried about the price? ($147,000 here). Nope, it was half the price of a base 911 and cheaper than a Boxster or Cayman, GT-R, M3, SLK 55 (insert ubqituous sports car here)
Was I worried about the 1430kg weight? Nope, it handled so beautifully on that sublime chassis, weight was irrelevant.
Was I worred about buying a low volume car from a company with a checkered history? Nope, in fact that was part of the appeal, the charm, the rarity, the history, the brand.
So with the news, blogs, PRs, tweets and hysteria rampant on the internet in the past 48 hours, did I do today? Well, Imwork from home, and the Evora is my daily driver. So I found some twisty roads and had a coffee in a nice village 30 minutes away:
And that, my friends is what Lotus is all about. Making cars that are used, driven, cherished, loved, and coveted - and most of all, rare as hell and the receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
An Evora sells for £50-60k in the UK, A Cayman starts at about £40k, a 911 starts at about £70k, I know where most people will spend their money.
JonRB said:
koorby said:
receipt of an amazing amount of admiring attention from the public who don't care or know about Danny, rappers, Proton, loans or debts - but just ask me "what is that amazing car you are driving?"
I must admit, back when I had a 1997 Chimaera 500 and my wife a 1990 Lotus Elan SE Turbo, her friends would exclaim "you have a LOTUS?!" with awe and wonderment (in a good way), despite it being worth a fraction of the value of my Chimaera. I'd invariably get "is it a Triumph?" or "aren't TVRs really unreliable?" about mine. Ho hum. It's also worth pointing out that Lotus has always been regarded as exotic in the 'States. For a perfect illustration of this, see Boiler Room, the only decent film Vin Diesel has ever appeared in, about boiler-room scams. It was made in the late '90s and the 'spoils of capitalism' are summed up by two cars parked with equal status in the car park by the company directors: a Ferrari F355 and a Lotus Esprit V8.
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