RE: Is Lotus in proper bother this time?

[hebbhog]

The Crack Fox said:

Which is less than 1/3 of what he said above. Having visited them earlier in the year I felt they were making maybe a dozen cars a day, tops, including Teslas.

I'm no Carol Vorderman, but am I missing sumfink ?

I think that there was a typo - on the Autocar version of the same article they quote 44 cars a week.........however this article also mentions continued development spending on the V8 and 'novel automated manual transmission'

[DonkeyApple]

Captain Muppet said:

DonkeyApple said:

Captain Muppet said:

Is rebadging an entire VW Toureg as a Porsche really less obvious parts bin raiding than using someone else's engine?

Also what's your view of Pagani? Nasty kit car?

Is this sort of thing only OK if the company makes lots of money doing it?

Is it the Pagani that is basically a Rover45 heater control panel with a car built around it?

I was thinking more of the crate engine.

It seems a weird double standard that companies can only get away with this sort of thing if the charge a fk-ton of money for the cars. Make them cheap and people get all sniffy.

I don't care where the bits are from as long as the car is amazing to drive.

I tend to agree.

I have two minor bugbears though.

The first is platform sharing. This is fine for boggo wagons and makes sense but it annoys me when they are asking well north of £100k for something on a platform that is available on something for under £30k. This is more a German SUV issue than anything else

The second is a real annoyance and does make me angry. I don't care if switchgear etc is shared. In fact, quite the opposite, I would prefer that a small manufacturer instead of pissing in the wind trying to make a switch that worked just took one from, say, Toyota who have probably spent millions ensuring it works at all times. My issue is when that luxury manufacturer doesn't even go to the effort to take the stty, 1p knob off the switch and replace it with something superior. It's like a restaraunt cutting back on potatoes to save money, it's just piequay and it shows.

It isn't exactly complicated or expensive to place a different cover over the parts bin item and to me it is a very clear sign of a lack of genuine care and attention, corner cutting and piss taking. It's a 'that'll do' mentality from a company who you are paying precicely because 'that' won't do.

[Harji]

Captain Muppet said:

Harji said:

Captain Muppet said:

Harji said:

Lotus has an image of 'kit car' to me. They may be fast and great to drive, but raided spare parts bins in the past and do they still source Toyota engines and gearboxes? If they really want to play with the big boys they need to change all that.

So you approve of Lotus's new V8 engine, and despise Porsche, Lamborgini and Ferrari for raiding the parts bin of lesser cars?

Remind me who the "big boys" are?

Lotus have always and more obviously raided the spare parts bin, tho others have over time, but less obviously. So Lotus are now developing a V8? Many years too late I think.

People like me grew up wanting one car, a white Lotus Esprit. I'm fortunate enough to buy quite a few desirable cars but not one Lotus is on my list. They never really got themselves in the public eye and they always had an image issue, Loads of trouble..... Raiders of the Spare Parts.

Is rebadging an entire VW Toureg as a Porsche really less obvious parts bin raiding than using someone else's engine?

Also what's your view of Pagani? Nasty kit car?

Is this sort of thing only OK if the company makes lots of money doing it?

Are you really saying the Porsche is a Toureg? I really don't have an opinion on the Pagani. Pound for pound though, they totally different marques though. And yes if I was to spend money on the Pagini it will probabaly be a blocker. Not that the Pginin is anywhere near my wish list anyway.

[Wills2]

Harji said:

Are you really saying the Porsche is a Toureg? I really don't have an opinion on the Pagani. Pound for pound though, they totally different marques though. And yes if I was to spend money on the Pagini it will probabaly be a blocker. Not that the Pginin is anywhere near my wish list anyway.

Well yes it is actually, they share the same diesel engine as well, I've driven both of the new ones and to be fair the Touareg is a bloody brilliant car (for what it is) and therefore so is the Cayenne.

The interiors are completely different, but the "platform" is essentially the same.

[Captain Muppet]

Harji said:

Are you really saying the Porsche is a Toureg?

No, I was using it as an example of raiding a parts bin, which you claim companies have to stop doing if they really want to play with the big boys.

Harji said:

They may be fast and great to drive, but raided spare parts bins in the past and do they still source Toyota engines and gearboxes? If they really want to play with the big boys they need to change all that.

[otolith]

Harji said:

Lotus has an image of 'kit car' to me. They may be fast and great to drive, but raided spare parts bins in the past and do they still source Toyota engines and gearboxes? If they really want to play with the big boys they need to change all that.

I don't understand why that matters, to be honest. It makes no sense for a low volume manufacturer to make things that it can buy better off the shelf. Lotus's new V8 engine (which is being built for marketing reasons, because some prospective buyers feel the same way you do) sounds as if it will be a fantastic motor - but I would be a lot more nervous owning one of those than something derived from a unit which sells tens or hundreds of thousands.

[Twincam16]

otolith said:

I don't understand why that matters, to be honest. It makes no sense for a low volume manufacturer to make things that it can buy better off the shelf. Lotus's new V8 engine (which is being built for marketing reasons, because some prospective buyers feel the same way you do) sounds as if it will be a fantastic motor - but I would be a lot more nervous owning one of those than something derived from a unit which sells tens or hundreds of thousands.

Thing is, that engine will go in the new Esprit, which will go head-to-head with other bespoke engineering packages from Lamborghini and Ferrari. In that company, no matter how good the Corvette Z06 actually is, it's always dismissed as a plastic-bodied yank-tank with a crate Chevy V8. The Esprit will undercut Ferrari and Lamborghini, but to make its mark, it needs bespoke race-derived engineering.

The Esprit always had unique Lotus engines. Compare it to the first Europas with their Renault engines - with the right setup and tuning, capable of taking on a 911 or a Dino, but still seen as a plastic-bodied kit-car. The Esprit, on the other hand, was a Chapman-ethos junior supercar worthy of the company that had given the world the Type 72 F1 car.

Lotus is back on the podium again and in the hunt for the F1 constructor's championship. I think it's the right time for a new Esprit.

Also, for those who say aluminium bodyshells aren't in keeping with Lotus tradition, what about all the Williams & Pritchard-bodied cars of the Fifties and early Sixties? Aluminium was chosen instead of steel due to its light weight - same here. The new Esprit will still be comparatively light.

[MX7]

otolith said:

I don't understand why that matters, to be honest. It makes no sense for a low volume manufacturer to make things that it can buy better off the shelf. Lotus's new V8 engine (which is being built for marketing reasons, because some prospective buyers feel the same way you do) sounds as if it will be a fantastic motor - but I would be a lot more nervous owning one of those than something derived from a unit which sells tens or hundreds of thousands.

I agree. I'd quite like a Volvo Noble M600 or a Audi Gumpert Apollo. To me, when a small company builds it's own engine, it's often more about ego than an honest attempt to supply the best product possible.

[otolith]

Twincam16 said:

Thing is, that engine will go in the new Esprit, which will go head-to-head with other bespoke engineering packages from Lamborghini and Ferrari. In that company, no matter how good the Corvette Z06 actually is, it's always dismissed as a plastic-bodied yank-tank with a crate Chevy V8. The Esprit will undercut Ferrari and Lamborghini, but to make its mark, it needs bespoke race-derived engineering.

I agree that there is such a perception, I just think it's inconsistent and illogical. The idea that a Maserati is less desirable for using a Ferrari engine, or a Lamborghini for sharing engine tech with Audi, or a Weismann or McLaren F1 for using a BMW engine, or a Zonda for using a Mercedes derived engine? For me, a good engine is a good engine. The Toyota V6 that Lotus is using does not seem to me to be the most exciting off-the-shelf engine Lotus could have started with, but that's an attribute of the engine, not of its provenance. The trouble with genuine race-derived tech (as opposed to marketeer's "race derived tech") is that it isn't designed to last hundreds of thousands of miles of road use. The new Lotus engine is an exciting development and looks likely to be an interesting and charismatic engine - I just hope it isn't also under-developed, unreliable and ruinously expensive to maintain.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Who cares where the parts come from? They either make a decent when assembled or they don't!

[otolith]

MX7 said:

To me, when a small company builds it's own engine, it's often more about ego than an honest attempt to supply the best product possible.

[DonkeyApple]

MX7 said:

I agree. I'd quite like a Volvo Noble M600 or a Audi Gumpert Apollo. To me, when a small company builds it's own engine, it's often more about ego than an honest attempt to supply the best product possible.

I agree but this isn't always a bad thing.

It can lead to greatness and give a car real character.

Businesswise it certainly makes sense to use crate engines and there are several options out there depending on your target market and price level from the LS up to Merc or BMW lumps.

The Ford V8 in various guises is also used in Land Rovers, Jags and I think the Volvo V8 is one of them also.

But I think there is a valid arguement that sometimes the next step for your product is your own engine.

Morgan made a sensible choice to go with BMW. They don't build enough cars to warrant the risk of self building.

TVR arguably were big enough at the time of conception to justify their own engine and I think it was a required move for a growing brand in need of making a clear step away from their roots. For them they came a cropper because their business was in decline shortly after the plan went into action and they cut corners to keep the price down and that made it a genuinely st product. Built properly it is a great engine with great character and a great asset but that costs more than TVR themselves could put into a sellable package.

Lotus building a V8 for their halo model does make sense. It is scary and their previous work didn't go well but if they want to price the Esprit to compete against Fez and Lamborghini then I think they have to do it to be taken seriously in that sector. It's just important that tey don't cut corners and get it right otherwise it risks killing the brand at that end of the market.

[Twincam16]

otolith said:

Twincam16 said:

Thing is, that engine will go in the new Esprit, which will go head-to-head with other bespoke engineering packages from Lamborghini and Ferrari. In that company, no matter how good the Corvette Z06 actually is, it's always dismissed as a plastic-bodied yank-tank with a crate Chevy V8. The Esprit will undercut Ferrari and Lamborghini, but to make its mark, it needs bespoke race-derived engineering.

I agree that there is such a perception, I just think it's inconsistent and illogical. The idea that a Maserati is less desirable for using a Ferrari engine, or a Lamborghini for sharing engine tech with Audi, or a Weismann or McLaren F1 for using a BMW engine, or a Zonda for using a Mercedes derived engine? For me, a good engine is a good engine. The Toyota V6 that Lotus is using does not seem to me to be the most exciting off-the-shelf engine Lotus could have started with, but that's an attribute of the engine, not of its provenance. The trouble with genuine race-derived tech (as opposed to marketeer's "race derived tech") is that it isn't designed to last hundreds of thousands of miles of road use. The new Lotus engine is an exciting development and looks likely to be an interesting and charismatic engine - I just hope it isn't also under-developed, unreliable and ruinously expensive to maintain.

I hope so too - however, given that it's been designed by Wolf Zimmerman, whose last engine design was the Lamborghini V10, I suspect it'll be more than capable of holding its own against the Italians.

[otolith]

Yes, I hope so. I'm less concerned by the expertise going into the project (I knew Zimmermann was ex-AMG, didn't realise he was also Audi/Lamborghini) than by the resources available for development.

[odyssey2200]

TVR used to use Ford and then Rover derived engines IIRC.
They then set about designing their own engine.

Remind me, what happened then?

Engine development costs MILLIONS and this is made worse nowadays by having to chase ever more stringent and constantly moving EU emission standards.

I can't think of one Sports car company* that does not share it's engines with or buy it's engines from another manufacture.
Even some volume manufacturers share engines e.g PSA & Mini.

The more expensive it becomes to meet Euro6 and then 7 and then 8 etc the more we will see big manufacturers sharing the cost of development.

The crunch will come when/if the big boys decide not to share with the likes of Caterham, Ginetta, Lotus etc


*(ETA Appart from McLaren)

Edited by odyssey2200 on Friday 27th April 16:18

[anonymous-user]

Twincam16 said:

otolith said:

I don't understand why that matters, to be honest. It makes no sense for a low volume manufacturer to make things that it can buy better off the shelf. Lotus's new V8 engine (which is being built for marketing reasons, because some prospective buyers feel the same way you do) sounds as if it will be a fantastic motor - but I would be a lot more nervous owning one of those than something derived from a unit which sells tens or hundreds of thousands.

Thing is, that engine will go in the new Esprit, which will go head-to-head with other bespoke engineering packages from Lamborghini and Ferrari. In that company, no matter how good the Corvette Z06 actually is, it's always dismissed as a plastic-bodied yank-tank with a crate Chevy V8. The Esprit will undercut Ferrari and Lamborghini, but to make its mark, it needs bespoke race-derived engineering.

The Esprit always had unique Lotus engines. Compare it to the first Europas with their Renault engines - with the right setup and tuning, capable of taking on a 911 or a Dino, but still seen as a plastic-bodied kit-car. The Esprit, on the other hand, was a Chapman-ethos junior supercar worthy of the company that had given the world the Type 72 F1 car.

Lotus is back on the podium again and in the hunt for the F1 constructor's championship. I think it's the right time for a new Esprit.

Also, for those who say aluminium bodyshells aren't in keeping with Lotus tradition, what about all the Williams & Pritchard-bodied cars of the Fifties and early Sixties? Aluminium was chosen instead of steel due to its light weight - same here. The new Esprit will still be comparatively light.

Well said. I love the Esprit. As a kid in the 80s seeing one used to amaze me much more than 911, etc. In fact when we buy a house with a garage the first thing I'm going to do is buy a Giugiaro Turbo

[DonkeyApple]

St John Smythe said:

Well said. I love the Esprit. As a kid in the 80s seeing one used to amaze me much more than 911, etc. In fact when we buy a house with a garage the first thing I'm going to do is buy a Giugiaro Turbo

I have to say that it's an iconic car from my childhood.

I've often wondered how you'd go about rebuilding one with modern running gear and electronics.

[Stephanie Plum]

DonkeyApple said:

I have to say that it's an iconic car from my childhood.

I've often wondered how you'd go about rebuilding one with modern running gear and electronics.

it's been done for the Europa http://www.banks-europa.co.uk/cars_home.htm so where there's a will there's a way

[Sam_68]

Twincam16 said:

Also, for those who say aluminium bodyshells aren't in keeping with Lotus tradition, what about all the Williams & Pritchard-bodied cars of the Fifties and early Sixties? Aluminium was chosen instead of steel due to its light weight - same here.

But Lotus abandoned aluminium for bodyshells as soon a better (ligher, stiffer) material became available. With the exception of the Seven, that means it didn't even make it to the '60's.

Going back to aluminium would, in engineering terms, be a retrograde step, and Lotus isn't (or wasn't ) about being retrograde.

[Dave Hedgehog]

MX7 said:

otolith said:

I don't understand why that matters, to be honest. It makes no sense for a low volume manufacturer to make things that it can buy better off the shelf. Lotus's new V8 engine (which is being built for marketing reasons, because some prospective buyers feel the same way you do) sounds as if it will be a fantastic motor - but I would be a lot more nervous owning one of those than something derived from a unit which sells tens or hundreds of thousands.

I agree. I'd quite like a Volvo Noble M600 or a Audi Gumpert Apollo. To me, when a small company builds it's own engine, it's often more about ego than an honest attempt to supply the best product possible.

you dont seam many people complaining about zonda using a merc engine