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JulianCharity
39 posts
44 months
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Ummm, did no one mention to Lotus that we're in a recession/depression? The market for this just isn't around right now imo. Of all the times to start borrowing and investing large sums of money , it isn't now - this was always a doomed venture i fear.
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s3fella
6,532 posts
57 months
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It went to pot before they hired the Fresh Prince of Belair to be their marketing director, but that just let the word know they were fooked.
Shame.
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sootyrumble
295 posts
56 months
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Greg_D said: bqf said: Greg_D said: Really........
I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car??? Why would they need to put a current engine in it? If they bought Lotus, maybe, just maybe, they could, you know, develop a new engine. Is that possible, do you think, or is it totally out of the question? When can Honda develop a new engine? Is it WHENEVER THEY WANT TO, or is there a secret engine development timetable we don't know about? don't you just love it when the clueless have a go at being patronising!!! Honda have made a conscious choice to walk away from performance machinery to develop pensioner-mobiles, there will very likely never be another screaming vtec unit due to emissions regs, yes they could possibly develop another unit, but at VAST cost that would make the whole shooting match all the more unlikely. you are thinking about productionising one of the elise typeRs which, although mouthwatering, will NEVER happen... Yes the clueless being patronising is so embarressing :-) http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/new-honda-nsx-d...You will see this car being driven by Robert Downey Jnr very soon in a movie the same way the R8 was launched
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sunsurfer
212 posts
51 months
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Wills2 said: He was on a very tight schedule with the clock ticking and had to think big or forget it all, is my guess. I also think he needed to create interest and PR globally to back up his business plan.
I might get shot down for this but I do not think this is his fault, yeah the Swissbeats/Mansory thing was strange to my eyes but I think he was looking for quick fixes to keep interest going and search out new buyers as the traditional base just wasn't buying and he needed to bridge the gap that was opening up in his plan.
Who knows... Agreed. The Bahar plan was never simply just his plan. All at Lotus developed this together. It is an ambitious and courageous business plan that should lead to profitability. A modular build system that leads to 4 different sports and super cars makes perfect sense and should lead to some stunning new cars and a long term future. The modular sports car is exactly what McLaren are doing...
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MX7
6,724 posts
44 months
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nav p
252 posts
57 months
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Crow555 said: I can't help but think a "breathed-on" saloon like the Carlton or the Cortina could've been a bit of a stop-gap until the new models come out.
There's not much point in all the PR shenanigans if you've got nothing to sell. Agreed,i guess it would not make that much money at all..but there must be a halo effect from this A lotus developed chassis with those engineers based in the uk must be an attractive proposal for someone.
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SeanyD
2,731 posts
70 months
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Great thread, watching the press with interest to see how it pans out.
<tinhat>
I think Lotus have missed a trick over the years. A softer, cheaper, small engined, greener version of an Elise would tick many boxes for a very very sexy city/commuter car, competing with the Smarts/Winds etc. Not talking Tesla, but an affordable 1.0 litre petrol or 1.5 tdi type power plant, selling for £10k-13k, queues would be as long as your arm.
Enter a new market, shift in high numbers, introduce economies of scale for manufacture, and therefore help support the always-struggling high performance side of the business.
</tinhat>
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Alfa numeric
2,414 posts
49 months
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His plan for Lotus is a good one- trouble is it's wildly ambitious and hugely expensive. I think this was recognised by the fact that the Exige V6, which wasn't part of the Grand Plan, has become the first model to market. What the long term plan needed was a short term plan to keep sales ticking over until the new models arrived.
There isn't a convertible Evora but rather than plug this obvious gap they debated which font the Esprit badge should be. I hope Lotus has a future but as the global credit crisis enters its fifth year I can't see anyone willing to pony up £200m+ to fund a range of low volume sports cars.
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Exige77
1,145 posts
61 months
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The Red Car Comapny were very happy to see Bahar go.
I think he left because he know his time in Red was running out.
Ex77
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grumbledoak
15,848 posts
103 months
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SeanyD said: Enter a new market, shift in high numbers, introduce economies of scale for manufacture, and therefore help support the always-struggling high performance side of the business. So, just undercut the MX5 and produce more than Mazda + backing can? If it was that easy I'd have done it by now.
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900T-R
18,677 posts
127 months
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SeanyD said: Great thread, watching the press with interest to see how it pans out.
I think Lotus have missed a trick over the years. A softer, cheaper, small engined, greener version of an Elise would tick many boxes for a very very sexy city/commuter car, competing with the Smarts/Winds etc. Not talking Tesla, but an affordable 1.0 litre petrol or 1.5 tdi type power plant, selling for £10k-13k, queues would be as long as your arm. Um, where would the £17-20K savings from the current Elise come from? An even smaller petrol engine than the current 1.6 Toyota lump won't cost significantly less for them, a diesel engine would cost more - and there's hardly anything to delete from the Elise spec sheet, anyway... You have to realise that things being as they are, £10-15K cars can only be built and turn something approaching a profit if they're based on Meccano sets common to hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of cars - and even then it's a struggle. Look at MINI - a roaring commercial success you'd think, but for the next gen they need to build BMWs - hatchbacks, saloons, MPVs, crossovers, convertibles - on the same FWD platform or it won't be a viable business case anymore.
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sunsurfer
212 posts
51 months
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SeanyD said: Great thread, watching the press with interest to see how it pans out.
I think Lotus have missed a trick over the years. A softer, cheaper, small engined, greener version of an Elise would tick many boxes for a very very sexy city/commuter car, competing with the Smarts/Winds etc. Not talking Tesla, but an affordable 1.0 litre petrol or 1.5 tdi type power plant, selling for £10k-13k, queues would be as long as your arm.
Enter a new market, shift in high numbers, introduce economies of scale for manufacture, and therefore help support the always-struggling high performance side of the business. Great idea. Suggest it would use an Elise platform but look significantly different and with a different name. A bit like a Triumph Spitfire compared to Triumph TR6 etc.
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SeanyD
2,731 posts
70 months
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grumbledoak said: SeanyD said: Enter a new market, shift in high numbers, introduce economies of scale for manufacture, and therefore help support the always-struggling high performance side of the business. So, just undercut the MX5 and produce more than Mazda + backing can? If it was that easy I'd have done it by now. With the Proton deal it was the perfect opportunity, let the Malaysian production line churn out the green elise in high numbers very cheaply, leaving Hethel to continue to develop and hand make the high performance range.
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Aids0G
92 posts
19 months
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would it be such a bad idea for lotus to be bought by a company such as hyundai, a compnay with a strong UK presence that could do with some more appealing products to expand its customer base?
AG
ps this is assuming that they are in a bit of a state and this isnt the same rumour mill rubbish that does such terrible damage to companies in fragile economic climate/
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Hellbound
1,966 posts
46 months
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UPDATE from Lotus = Shut the f*ck up media. You're not helping by filling your pages with negative bullsh*t and reactionary crap. Wouldn't have been long before the mainstream media fell for it and believed Lotus was in administration!
I'm glad they updated us, or indeed reminded us of reality.
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Mr_B
4,864 posts
113 months
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Japveesix said: It doesn't help that their proposed new range of 4 or 5 cars to fit all areas of the market all look almost exactely the same....  Hardly innovative design there  A business model based on mega money Porsche ?
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bqf
944 posts
41 months
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Greg_D said: don't you just love it when the clueless have a go at being patronising!!! In what way am I 'clueless'? I have suggested that for a knockdown price, Lotus might be attractive to Honda, who might then develop a new engine for a Lotus sports car. As subsequent posters have pointed out, Honda are busy developing new engines, including for the NSX. It's a shame that Pistonheads always ends up with unsubstantiated abuse on posts like this.
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Tuna
4,518 posts
154 months
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It seems to me that some people won't be happy until Lotus have been talked into the ground. Then they can walk away smugly declaring "Told you so".
Given that Lotus were committed to a 500 million pound turnaround programme by their owners, Proton, it's not all that surprising that two years into that five year plan, they're 200 million down. That's better than I'd expect.
The bottom line here is that Lotus are fighting for their lives because of the political situation in Malaysia, not Bahar's work. They borrowed money to change the company, and then have been put out to dry a year before the first (and by far the most important) car could be released.
All the (delighted) hand wringing about F1, branding and Swizz Beats misses the point that those deals probably cost Lotus a fraction of the money being put into pulling the rest of the company out of a hole. Compare the loud denunciation of Lotus for (shock horror!) updating their 1970's portacabins, with the sighs of admiration at the vast glossy offices built by Mclaren.
It seems to me that the sale of the company will depend almost entirely on the state of their Engineering consultancy, and the current state of the Esprit. Those two assets will define what the company is 'worth' - not whether or not Bahar is a 'nice guy'. That's the irony - for all the public bluster, the real value of the company is almost completely hidden right now and it's that the discussions should be focussing on, not whether branded clothing was a good idea.
And, as ever people fail to understand what the company is doing. Five cars? One platform. Engines by Honda? Yeah sure, that's such a difference from the Evora engine by Toyota. Fernandez will save them? No, he wants to see them fail - it would be in his best interest. Hynudai should buy them to improve their UK presence? No - the UK is the last place that Lotus want to sell cars to right now. Bad idea to invest in a recession? Far better than building a prestige car at the peak. Argh.
Personally, for the amount of effort being put into changing the company, I'd like to see the folk at Hethel be given a chance to show what they're capable of. Sadly the sheer quantity of bad will and FUD being thrown at Lotus right now could well doom the company.
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HeavySoul
3,670 posts
89 months
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Shameless C&P from the other thread on Bahar:
---
Admittedly the 'Bahar Plan' appeared ludicrous in the extreme upon announcement. It seemed to be coming to fruition very, very slowly too which did not help to change the initial opinions of most of us armchair viewers.
However Lotus (as always seems to be the case) was heading in the wrong direction before he even turned up and was not going to turn itself around by continuing to rehash the Elise to fewer and fewer buyers.
They needed (need) a strong leader and someone who dared to shake up the company a little to get them looking forward and developing some products that made consistent profits. Whether it was 'right' in the eyes of the traditionalist or not, surely it was better to try something rather than letting it slip into an pathetic death?!
Of course he didn't really care about Lotus as such, but he had a credible history of building strong brands. He drew together a strong team of experience to try and reignite the brand (which as a business it needs). Whether people like him or not is irrelevant if he managed to follow through on the plan and help the brand survive.
In terms of the big 5 model press blitz, whether they were ever going to introduce all 5 models or not does not really matter and was not really the sole point of that launch - even if it only took two or three to actual production it at least showcased to the press and potential buyers/investors that the management actually had a plan in place and were not just sat around scratching their behinds.
Of course it looked a bit outrageous and over the top but at least it was something.
Overall, I think it was/is a very foreign approach to a very British company and this might add to the annoyance of some.
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Fire99
8,108 posts
99 months
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Tuna said: It seems to me that some people won't be happy until Lotus have been talked into the ground. Then they can walk away smugly declaring "Told you so".
Given that Lotus were committed to a 500 million pound turnaround programme by their owners, Proton, it's not all that surprising that two years into that five year plan, they're 200 million down. That's better than I'd expect.
The bottom line here is that Lotus are fighting for their lives because of the political situation in Malaysia, not Bahar's work. They borrowed money to change the company, and then have been put out to dry a year before the first (and by far the most important) car could be released.
All the (delighted) hand wringing about F1, branding and Swizz Beats misses the point that those deals probably cost Lotus a fraction of the money being put into pulling the rest of the company out of a hole. Compare the loud denunciation of Lotus for (shock horror!) updating their 1970's portacabins, with the sighs of admiration at the vast glossy offices built by Mclaren.
It seems to me that the sale of the company will depend almost entirely on the state of their Engineering consultancy, and the current state of the Esprit. Those two assets will define what the company is 'worth' - not whether or not Bahar is a 'nice guy'. That's the irony - for all the public bluster, the real value of the company is almost completely hidden right now and it's that the discussions should be focussing on, not whether branded clothing was a good idea.
And, as ever people fail to understand what the company is doing. Five cars? One platform. Engines by Honda? Yeah sure, that's such a difference from the Evora engine by Toyota. Fernandez will save them? No, he wants to see them fail - it would be in his best interest. Argh.
Personally, for the amount of effort being put into changing the company, I'd like to see the folk at Hethel be given a chance to show what they're capable of. Sadly the sheer quantity of bad will and FUD being thrown at Lotus right now could well doom the company. Fair Points.
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