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jamoor
7,042 posts
84 months
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XitUp said: jamoor said: All cars are a waste of time if you try using them for a purpose they were not designed. A Zonda can't carry five adults plus luggage, total waste of time. An XC90 can't do a decent lap of the 'ring, total waste of time. Globs said: So that's 99.99995% of the population told.
Now show me the business plan for making them for the 3 remaining people who can live with these issues.
Go on, it will be fascinating. You know there are more than 3 people on PH with electric cars, right? And I'm pretty sure not every one in the world is on PH, so I think your sums are a bit out. That's the thing though, spending £25k on something that does 70 odd miles between charges is pretty useless, you can't go on any long journeys really. I mean who spends 25k on a car to go no further than 35 miles from home? You may as well get a £2000 ford focus, will take you forever to burn through 23k's worth of fuel.
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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thinfourth2 said: For the total freaks who have room for more then 1 car, sleep 8 hours a day and a commute of under 30 miles they can have an electric daily driver. No they can't, you keep missing the point. For every one of your funny electric cars they need a fully functioning high range car - a petrol one. So what you are really saying is that in the middle of a recession (the longest since WWII) with more banking collapses and unemployment lined up for the next few years, in order to be green you'll need to keep two cars. FFS are you nuts? Read carefully: ONE CAR. ONE CAR THAT WORKS. Additionally it would be nice to have a car that keeps you warm in the winter, especially as we are entering a period of global cooling, but we'll gloss over that with blankets and a hot water bottle for now.
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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thinfourth2 said: So no brand new petrol engine has ever failed in an hour
Okay Show me someone who has paid for one of those. EVER. Doubt you can even find one that failed. On the other hand, the death of a multi-thousand pound battery because you got stranded away from home in the cold weather is a serious issue. The only sensible electric car is one with a petrol engine in it, because the makers refuse to allow the owners the option of swapping out the batteries on the journey. Or anyway in fact - even dealers.
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XitUp
7,690 posts
73 months
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Show me an electric car with a failed battery that wasn't covered by warranty. jamoor said: That's the thing though, spending £25k on something that does 70 odd miles between charges is pretty useless, you can't go on any long journeys really.
I mean who spends 25k on a car to go no further than 35 miles from home? You may as well get a £2000 ford focus, will take you forever to burn through 23k's worth of fuel. How many cars are there in your household? If it's just one, and you often do long trips then no, an electric car is not for you. If it is just one and you only do long trips say a few times a year, then you can hire a car for that. If you have more than one car, and the vast majority of your trips are under 60-70 miles, then an electric car would work fine for you.
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Globs
11,747 posts
100 months
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The potential to damage the drive battery I suspect puts many people off. It's a known issue. I.e. That cat is ALREADY out of the bag. XitUp said: How many cars are there in your household? If it's just one, and you often do long trips then no, an electric car is not for you.
If it is just one and you only do long trips say a few times a year, then you can hire a car for that. And what if you are the majority case: One car, mainly short journeys but you'll need the occasional medium and long trip. At short notice - like for an ill relative, or you just want to use your own car. That's the majority case, avoiding the majority of buyers is an odd thing to do, no one has explained that yet. Can you? That's why the sales of small petrol cars is taking off, but EVs are going nowhere.
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thinfourth2
23,551 posts
73 months
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Globs said: thinfourth2 said: For the total freaks who have room for more then 1 car, sleep 8 hours a day and a commute of under 30 miles they can have an electric daily driver. No they can't, you keep missing the point. For every one of your funny electric cars they need a fully functioning high range car - a petrol one. So what you are really saying is that in the middle of a recession (the longest since WWII) with more banking collapses and unemployment lined up for the next few years, in order to be green you'll need to keep two cars. FFS are you nuts? Read carefully: ONE CAR. ONE CAR THAT WORKS. Additionally it would be nice to have a car that keeps you warm in the winter, especially as we are entering a period of global cooling, but we'll gloss over that with blankets and a hot water bottle for now. I have thought about this and come to the following conclusion Your an idiot If someone has no car how do they get around? How do they travel long distance? Oh yeah they use public transport So you insistence that it is impossible to survive with 1 car that has a limited range is basically b  ks Also no one will force you to buy an electric car. If you travel 1000miles a day regularly then buy a petrol car its not bloody hard. And could you please please please please quote me where i have said electric cars are green or the advantage of them is even vaguely tree huggery. The advantage is 1 No nasty crap out of the back in cities meaning londoners no longer will have black snot 2 Can be charged from anything that makes electricity so reducing our consumption of oil 3 You don't have to visit the petrol station once a week. The advantage of a petrol car is 1 Instant refill for your daily 500mile commute 2 You can park it anywhere though i would argue that you shouldn't really own a car if you don't have somewhere to park it
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thinfourth2
23,551 posts
73 months
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Globs said: thinfourth2 said: So no brand new petrol engine has ever failed in an hour
Okay Show me someone who has paid for one of those. EVER. Doubt you can even find one that failed. Now not being involved with new cars i don't know of an example but i'm sure those that are in dealers will of seen this. However you will be able to produce a long list of EVs where the battery has failed within 2 weeks and are not covered by the warranty Globs said: On the other hand, the death of a multi-thousand pound battery because you got stranded away from home in the cold weather is a serious issue. So when a petrol engine fails. How do you heat the car or get home? Okay you could set fire to it to keep warm so that is another advantage of petrol cars is they burn nicely Of course Ferrari being a forward thinking company have thought about this 
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XitUp
7,690 posts
73 months
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Globs said: And what if you are the majority case:
One car, mainly short journeys but you'll need the occasional medium and long trip. At short notice - like for an ill relative, or you just want to use your own car.
That's the majority case, avoiding the majority of buyers is an odd thing to do, no one has explained that yet. Can you?
That's why the sales of small petrol cars is taking off, but EVs are going nowhere. Is that the majority? I've not seen the figures on it, perhaps you could share them? For those people, I'd say, ICE car, plug in hybrid or electric car + rent one of the other two when they need it. The ill relative thing probably doesn't happen enough to have an impact on your car choice for most people, a taxi would work in cases like that.
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eldar
6,993 posts
65 months
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XitUp said: Is that the majority? I've not seen the figures on it, perhaps you could share them?
For those people, I'd say, ICE car, plug in hybrid or electric car + rent one of the other two when they need it. The ill relative thing probably doesn't happen enough to have an impact on your car choice for most people, a taxi would work in cases like that. Put this in perspective. The Vauxhall Ampera should keep everyone happy. Enough battery for a reasonable daily commute, plus a range extender for 300 miles between battery or petrol fill up. What isn't to like? An Ampera costs £400+vat to lease, 10Kpa first 40 miles per day cheap leccy, thereafter 45mpg. Vauxhall Insignia diesel £225+vat 10k, 45MPG all miles. Not a lot in it. Unless congestion charge comes into play.
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XitUp
7,690 posts
73 months
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Indeed. I'd say not having a diesel is worth the little bit extra per month.
Is that Insignia the same spec as the Ampera for that price, by the way?
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jamoor
7,042 posts
84 months
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XitUp said: How many cars are there in your household? If it's just one, and you often do long trips then no, an electric car is not for you.
If it is just one and you only do long trips say a few times a year, then you can hire a car for that.
If you have more than one car, and the vast majority of your trips are under 60-70 miles, then an electric car would work fine for you. But compare the leaf to the vauxhall ampera, I'm struggling to see what advantages it actually has apart from being a bit cheaper and an extra seat. Also, reason people use cars is convenience usually, I could get to work and back on bus, train but it's not convinient. Renting a car out to go to a large out of town shopping centre 60 miles from home at the weekend most certainly isn't convenient.
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XitUp
7,690 posts
73 months
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It's quite a lot cheaper.
Plus it has less to go wrong with it.
Hiring a car for a day is not that inconvenient, is it? I'd say driving to a shopping centre, parking there and spending the day is a lot more inconvenient, but that's just me.
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jamoor
7,042 posts
84 months
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XitUp said: It's quite a lot cheaper.
Plus it has less to go wrong with it.
Hiring a car for a day is not that inconvenient, is it? I'd say driving to a shopping centre, parking there and spending the day is a lot more inconvenient, but that's just me. Picture this, Friday night the family are all together, What shall we do tomorrow kids? Er shopping? Let me just check online at car rental availability, for the NEXT MORNING! You seem to be seriously deluded about the leaf... Also warranty is 100k or 8 years on that Vauxhall. Alot better than the leaf. If you go far away twice a month even, (35 miles from home isn't even far IMO) then you will end up spending £70-100 a month odd on hiring cars, not to mention other expenses such as getting to the rental depot etc etc)
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XitUp
7,690 posts
73 months
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There are car rental places that drop off at your door.
You can also take the train, much nicer than driving the brats to Bluewater/Meadowhall/etc.
Several of the big shopping centres have charging points by the way, so you could live 70 miles away and still use them. I'm sure more will be put in place if demand rises, same with at park and ride places.
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jamoor
7,042 posts
84 months
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XitUp said: There are car rental places that drop off at your door.
You can also take the train, much nicer than driving the brats to Bluewater/Meadowhall/etc.
Several of the big shopping centres have charging points by the way, so you could live 70 miles away and still use them. I'm sure more will be put in place if demand rises, same with at park and ride places. Then we're back to the convenience factor again, people don't want to use the train because it isn't convenient. Booking a car on Friday night for Saturday morning isn't generally possible. Don't these cars take 12 hours to charge? Going shopping isn't a 12 hour activity for most.. 
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thinfourth2
23,551 posts
73 months
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jamoor said: XitUp said: There are car rental places that drop off at your door.
You can also take the train, much nicer than driving the brats to Bluewater/Meadowhall/etc.
Several of the big shopping centres have charging points by the way, so you could live 70 miles away and still use them. I'm sure more will be put in place if demand rises, same with at park and ride places. Then we're back to the convenience factor again, people don't want to use the train because it isn't convenient. Booking a car on Friday night for Saturday morning isn't generally possible. Don't these cars take 12 hours to charge? Going shopping isn't a 12 hour activity for most.. True but most don't drive 70 miles to go shopping But you won't be forced to buy one so why worry I'll buy one the second it becomes affordable as i don't drive 70 miles to the shops or my work. I drive 23 miles to the shops or work.
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XitUp
7,690 posts
73 months
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Nope. They don't. 8 hours, fast charge is 80% in half an hour.
How far away from your door is your shopping centre of choice, by the way? Meadowhall is about 70 miles for me, I could drive there in a leaf, charge up while I shop, then drive back.
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andyroo
2,226 posts
79 months
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I don't like this idea of always being close to running out of juice - I keep my cars at at least a quarter of a tank because I don't like fuel light roulette. If its hit and miss whether my phone runs out of battery before I get home at the end of the day, I'm certainly not driving something that might not quite last...
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PumpkinSteve
1,802 posts
25 months
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A lot of people in this thread apparently live 100+ miles away from their 'local' shop 
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XitUp
7,690 posts
73 months
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andyroo said: I don't like this idea of always being close to running out of juice - I keep my cars at at least a quarter of a tank because I don't like fuel light roulette. If its hit and miss whether my phone runs out of battery before I get home at the end of the day, I'm certainly not driving something that might not quite last... I bet you filled up when Francis Maud told you too an' all. 
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