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BrightonEd

53 posts

44 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
cuda said:
BrightonEd said:
fushion julz said:
I wouldn't!
Munich bellends got that tag for a reason... and Barney is/was one of the ex-owners. A leopard and his spots, etc...

If you're looking for someone down that way (Surrey/Sussex) then try Mark McLennan at MJF Engineering...he knows those engines inside out as he races a M635csi (same engine)...
Alex Elliot is another chap in the same area who is a whizz with (BMW) racing cars..

ETA: if you do end up going to Barney, make sure the car is returned with all the original parts intact! I know people who have taken their cars to (the old) Munich Legends and had (for example) the complete LS diff and diff cooler exchanged for an open, non-cooled version!


Edited by fushion julz on Tuesday 17th April 14:33
This is why I rarely post here - two regular customers recommend a great garage - and someone living in Oliver Stone conspiracy thoery world decides that a busy garage would strip out parts on cars! There's plenty of 9/11 boards out there for paranoia fella...
BrightonEd - don't waste your breath - Richard300 (bottom of page 3) and Fashion Julz (the clue's in the names, sorry namez) sound like they don't have experience there. A little knowledge and all that...
Cuda - agreed! Actually, I'm off to see Barney on Friday - service / Le Mans prep time. And I want to see the Weissmann he's just got in. Only £100k <gulp>

B'stard Child

6,841 posts

129 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
blearyeyedboy said:
B'stard Child said:
God, don't open that can of worms again! wink
Just saying we are unlikely to get a responce biggrin

OK we'll let it die wink

B'stard Child

6,841 posts

129 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Oh one for the Moderators and or Admin team - does this thread tread on the edge of the name and shame rules - some pretty strong comments on some "specialists" in here

richard300

969 posts

92 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
BrightonEd said:
cuda said:
BrightonEd said:
fushion julz said:
I wouldn't!
Munich bellends got that tag for a reason... and Barney is/was one of the ex-owners. A leopard and his spots, etc...

If you're looking for someone down that way (Surrey/Sussex) then try Mark McLennan at MJF Engineering...he knows those engines inside out as he races a M635csi (same engine)...
Alex Elliot is another chap in the same area who is a whizz with (BMW) racing cars..

ETA: if you do end up going to Barney, make sure the car is returned with all the original parts intact! I know people who have taken their cars to (the old) Munich Legends and had (for example) the complete LS diff and diff cooler exchanged for an open, non-cooled version!


Edited by fushion julz on Tuesday 17th April 14:33
This is why I rarely post here - two regular customers recommend a great garage - and someone living in Oliver Stone conspiracy thoery world decides that a busy garage would strip out parts on cars! There's plenty of 9/11 boards out there for paranoia fella...
BrightonEd - don't waste your breath - Richard300 (bottom of page 3) and Fashion Julz (the clue's in the names, sorry namez) sound like they don't have experience there. A little knowledge and all that...
Cuda - agreed! Actually, I'm off to see Barney on Friday - service / Le Mans prep time. And I want to see the Weissmann he's just got in. Only £100k <gulp>
Well, actually I do have experience of them (hence my input on the thread I linked from the E30 zone) And I had a lot of my time wasted by them. Admittedly this was the old mob at ML who are now the other company being referred to, and not the new owners of ML (I did also make this clear in my post at the bottom of page 3).

Caractacus

2,423 posts

108 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
B'stard Child said:
Oh one for the Moderators and or Admin team - does this thread tread on the edge of the name and shame rules - some pretty strong comments on some "specialists" in here
PitonHeads - pushing the boundaries matters smile
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olly22n

13,667 posts

89 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Caractacus said:
B'stard Child said:
Oh one for the Moderators and or Admin team - does this thread tread on the edge of the name and shame rules - some pretty strong comments on some "specialists" in here
PistonHeads - pushing the boundaries matters smile
PistonHeads - subtley blowing the cam-chain myth out the water

Caractacus

2,423 posts

108 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
olly22n said:
PistonHeads - subtley blowing the cam-chain myth out the water
LOL

Must admit, if I had a 100,000 mile E28 M5 or E24 M6 I'd probably have the job done. Peace of mind and all...

How long could you go before it all goes pear-shaped though?

Output Flange

14,144 posts

94 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Have seen 160k miles on the original chain before, so who knows.

I can't recall ever having met someone whose chain broke on an M88, either.

B'stard Child

6,841 posts

129 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Output Flange said:
Have seen 160k miles on the original chain before, so who knows.

I can't recall ever having met someone whose chain broke on an M88, either.
Duplex or simplex

I've had a lot of experience with chain driven camshafts - for all the wrong reasons biggrin

Output Flange

14,144 posts

94 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Simplex.

B'stard Child

6,841 posts

129 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Output Flange said:
Simplex.
Ahh not so good for longevity compared to a duplex set up - I'd say 100K and a change on any simplex chain was a good move

Output Flange

14,144 posts

94 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
B'stard Child said:
Ahh not so good for longevity compared to a duplex set up - I'd say 100K and a change on any simplex chain was a good move
Have you ever seen an M88 simplex chain snap?

Marquis Rex

7,377 posts

122 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Output Flange said:
B'stard Child said:
Ahh not so good for longevity compared to a duplex set up - I'd say 100K and a change on any simplex chain was a good move
Have you ever seen an M88 simplex chain snap?
There are examples on Forums of tensioners and guide rails that have come apart, or the lower sprocket teeth wearing and then causing the engine to jump teeth.
The M88/3 as mounted in the E28 and E24 were the only example of simplex chains on this engine. All of my engine design colleagues involved in chain design say the only reason BMW would have gone to a Duplex chain was due to either chain stretch or snapping and to rectify this.
Some folks actually retro fit the duplex chain from the later models but this is not insignificant and requires machining of the case and cover for clearance.

In addition there has been a tensioner upgrade also.

The worst case scenario is when the cars been standing and the engine is cold- where the probability of chain jumping is highest. A good engineer can listen out for it also but it's safer to dismantle and check like I did.

B'stard Child

6,841 posts

129 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Output Flange said:
B'stard Child said:
Ahh not so good for longevity compared to a duplex set up - I'd say 100K and a change on any simplex chain was a good move
Have you ever seen an M88 simplex chain snap?
Nope but I've seen a lot of C30SE (Carlton/Senator 3.0 24V) and C36GET (Lotus Carlton/Omega) chains let go - another simplex chained engine that needs a chain change every 100K max

Some have been know to go on for 160K miles before going but would you want to risk wrecking an engine on a Lotus Carlton - not exactly plentifull in breakers yards

Failure mode is very consistant - tears the link pin thro the side plate when it has enough slack to try to jump a tooth and then finds it hasn't enough slack to fully complete that step........

B'stard Child

6,841 posts

129 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Borrowed Picture I hope will illustrate it (if I've got the right picture)


Marquis Rex

7,377 posts

122 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
B'stard Child said:
Output Flange said:
B'stard Child said:
Ahh not so good for longevity compared to a duplex set up - I'd say 100K and a change on any simplex chain was a good move
Have you ever seen an M88 simplex chain snap?
Nope but I've seen a lot of C30SE (Carlton/Senator 3.0 24V) and C36GET (Lotus Carlton/Omega) chains let go - another simplex chained engine that needs a chain change every 100K max

Some have been know to go on for 160K miles before going but would you want to risk wrecking an engine on a Lotus Carlton - not exactly plentifull in breakers yards

Failure mode is very consistant - tears the link pin thro the side plate when it has enough slack to try to jump a tooth and then finds it hasn't enough slack to fully complete that step........
I think it's very good advice to change the chain around 100K. The only issue with comparing to other cars is that the loads are very different as is the design. If you compare the 24 valve M5/6 engines with their 12 valve M30 bretheren for instance: The M30 with its simplex chain will go on for up to 200,000 miles and this is a very similar design to the BMW twin cam. A similar story can be painted for many Mercedes engines with a Simplex chain so it should be considered on a case by case basis

E38Ross

14,353 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Marquis Rex said:
I think it's very good advice to change the chain around 100K. The only issue with comparing to other cars is that the loads are very different as is the design. If you compare the 24 valve M5/6 engines with their 12 valve M30 bretheren for instance: The M30 with its simplex chain will go on for up to 200,000 miles and this is a very similar design to the BMW twin cam. A similar story can be painted for many Mercedes engines with a Simplex chain so it should be considered on a case by case basis
Yup, if not longer. Last e34 535i I drove had over 230k on the clock and was on its original chain and was fine.

nonuts

15,785 posts

112 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Great Pretender said:
Phil's total revenue this year is down signficantly on account that I no longer own a recalititrant M car, but no matter, what that man doesn't know about BMWs, isn't worth knowing.

And without wishing to turn this thread into a handbag sligner, I'd avoid ML like plague of plagues with the plague.
Not to worry about Phil, I will be visiting again soon to figure out what the dodgy vibrations are on my e39!

B'stard Child

6,841 posts

129 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
Marquis Rex said:
B'stard Child said:
Output Flange said:
B'stard Child said:
Ahh not so good for longevity compared to a duplex set up - I'd say 100K and a change on any simplex chain was a good move
Have you ever seen an M88 simplex chain snap?
Nope but I've seen a lot of C30SE (Carlton/Senator 3.0 24V) and C36GET (Lotus Carlton/Omega) chains let go - another simplex chained engine that needs a chain change every 100K max

Some have been know to go on for 160K miles before going but would you want to risk wrecking an engine on a Lotus Carlton - not exactly plentifull in breakers yards

Failure mode is very consistant - tears the link pin thro the side plate when it has enough slack to try to jump a tooth and then finds it hasn't enough slack to fully complete that step........
I think it's very good advice to change the chain around 100K. The only issue with comparing to other cars is that the loads are very different as is the design. If you compare the 24 valve M5/6 engines with their 12 valve M30 bretheren for instance: The M30 with its simplex chain will go on for up to 200,000 miles and this is a very similar design to the BMW twin cam. A similar story can be painted for many Mercedes engines with a Simplex chain so it should be considered on a case by case basis
^ totally agree but if there is an issue with design of the timing chain system (I include tensioners and guides in design) then if you cherish the car and want to avoid an expensive bill it's better to have a slightly cheaper bill - replacement before breakage - upfront so that you can then enjoy the car worry free.

C30SE and C36GET I'm 99% certain that the tensioners and guides create the opportunity for the chain to jump a tooth - however are you really going to strip the front of an engine down and just replace those items and leave the old chain and sprockets - I wouldn't

I changed my LC chain at 25K miles and I'll change everything again before I sell the car (I've got all the parts tucked away ready so it's not like it's going to cost me anything) - I can do it in 8-10 hours on my own but then I have changed rather a lot of them over the last 15 years even got involved in a how too video for the benefit of other club members.

Output Flange

14,144 posts

94 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th April 2012 quote quote all
I fully understand the point you're making - the timing chain guides went on my E39 540i, and I currently have a '99 XJR so know all about timing chain and associated paraphenalia issues - just that in the 6 years or so that I've been around E28 fora and from knowing a number of E28 M5 owners, I've never heard a first-hand story of having issues, including (as mentioned previously) a car on the original timing gear with 160k miles.
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