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StevieB
Original Poster
627 posts
17 months
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JUst been reading this months car and the test of the Subaru BRZ makes interesting reading. Makes me wonder if some motoring journos are letting the pleasures of oversteer cloud their judgement. What I mean is this; can the new Toyotaru really be recommended over a similar priced Renault Megane RS 265 which in every measurable way appears to be superior, but obviously has the "wrong wheel drive" problem. The new jap car has the same straight line speed issues as the Clio 197/200 did when it came out. But those cars were only £16K and up against super mini hot hatches so it didnt matter. The new coupe is up against some fairly pokey opposition in the 25K price range...I just hope that the "purist" driving experience will be enough for this car to do well....
What do the PH massive think about this?
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Panayiotis
442 posts
78 months
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A hot hatch is not a sports car, no matter how much power or how many fancy seats it has. Ultimately hot hatches start off as a whitegood which the manufacturer spends considerable effort to make sporty. The Toyobaru twins at least are ground up sports cars, this in itself makes them more special and more fit for purpose.
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
47 months
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Panayiotis said: A hot hatch is not a sports car, no matter how much power or how many fancy seats it has. Ultimately hot hatches start off as a whitegood which the manufacturer spends considerable effort to make sporty. The Toyobaru twins at least are ground up sports cars, this in itself makes them more special and more fit for purpose. Exactly. I'd reckon (expect) for balance, steering feel, low COG and aero etc, the BZR/AE86 are in a different league than any hot hatch. Hope so.
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Speed addicted
1,861 posts
96 months
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Johnboy Mac said: Exactly. I'd reckon (expect) for balance, steering feel, low COG and aero etc, the BZR/AE86 are in a different league than any hot hatch. Hope so. +1 I have no intrest at all in hot hatches, no matter how good or fast they may be. But a well set up rear drive coupe that's adjustable on the throttle is something I may actually buy. It's more about the feel of the car than the outright speed.
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Captain Muppet
5,970 posts
134 months
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What is the price difference between apples and oranges? Anyone know?
Also I've noticed than iPads are much more expensive than jaffa cakes and have a significantly lower proportion of smashing orangey bit inside, and almost no chocolate on top. WTF is up with that?
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Fittster
14,939 posts
82 months
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StevieB said: straight line speed issues But is that really an issue outside of a internet/pub discussion? Once in a blue moon a handful of owners take their cars to track days but the rest of the time your on the public roads. High speeds don't really work on the public road due to the law/volume of other cars. If you enjoy the shove of torquey acceleration rather than high speeds you'd be better off with a chipped diesel than a petrol hot hatch/small coupe. In my view good handling is easier to enjoy than straight line speed.
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
47 months
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Fittster said: But is that really an issue outside of a internet/pub discussion?
In my view good handling is easier to enjoy than straight line speed. +1. 2.0lt na with 200bhp or a 2.0lt turbo with 250bhp? No brainer in the likes of the BZR/AE86, me thinks.
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MadKipper
40 posts
119 months
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The problem with hot hatches are they are FWD which = understeer and corrupted steering feel unsually. The new RWD Subaru and Toyota cars are to applauded as they seem to be products with drivers who really care about feelsome sterring, brakes, throttle adjustable rear balance etc. But the problem they have have is anyone could pick up an old E30 325i, strip it, bung on some EBC brake pads and LEDA coilover suspension to give a lighter car that thrills with a n/a straight six howl and gives much of the grins and trackday/weekend fun for around 5 grand. Oh wait, they don't have a problem; I forgot most people turn their noses up at 1.1 tonne n/a six cylinder RWD joyful and bombproof reliable machines because they're "old and square" ! 
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s m
8,110 posts
72 months
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StevieB said: JUst been reading this months car and the test of the Subaru BRZ makes interesting reading. What I found interesting about the CAR article in the South of France with the BRZ ( and also the Jap video with the in-car from the BRZ and GT86 round the same track ) is how they've changed the handling characteristics of the respective cars with little chassis changes. From what I've read, the GT86 is more 'playful' and 'adjustable' on the limit than the BRZ - they chose different damper and spring ratings ( and tyres as well? )
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MarkRSi
3,340 posts
87 months
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If you want a better comparison, check the prices of a VW Scirocco/Audi TT; VW is £25k for 210bhp while the equivalent TT is a bit more.
Yet these seem to sell quite well...
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garreth64
310 posts
90 months
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Just got this months copy of EVO and won't spoil it for anyone, but the large number of pages devoted to the BRZ make interesting reading.....
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P1H
131 posts
17 months
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Panayiotis said: A hot hatch is not a sports car, no matter how much power or how many fancy seats it has. Ultimately hot hatches start off as a whitegood which the manufacturer spends considerable effort to make sporty. The Toyobaru twins at least are ground up sports cars, this in itself makes them more special and more fit for purpose. I don't agree with this whatsoever. You say 'fit for purpose' but what 'purpose' are we talking about? Sporty cars, whether sports cars or hothatches, have lots of different purposes, some of which a car like the BRZ/AE86 is more suitable for and some that a fast hot hatch may be more suitable for. I.e. One purpose of a sporty car (which people value with varying degrees, and admittedly to some it is relatively unimportant) is to accelerate quickly, which many hot hatches do better than the BRZ/AE86.
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Captain Muppet
5,970 posts
134 months
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P1H said: Panayiotis said: A hot hatch is not a sports car, no matter how much power or how many fancy seats it has. Ultimately hot hatches start off as a whitegood which the manufacturer spends considerable effort to make sporty. The Toyobaru twins at least are ground up sports cars, this in itself makes them more special and more fit for purpose. I don't agree with this whatsoever. You say 'fit for purpose' but what 'purpose' are we talking about? Sporty cars, whether sports cars or hothatches, have lots of different purposes, some of which a car like the BRZ/AE86 is more suitable for and some that a fast hot hatch may be more suitable for. I.e. One purpose of a sporty car (which people value with varying degrees, and admittedly to some it is relatively unimportant) is to accelerate quickly, which many hot hatches do better than the BRZ/AE86. So the BR86 performs less well than some, but not all, hot hatches in one variable which you admit is relatively unimportant. You think this is a point worth arguing? I'm out, this thread has already got silly.
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David87
2,401 posts
81 months
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I'll be interested to drive the Toyota and Subaru. As a Focus RS owner, it will be fascinating to see what's more fun to use on the road, where you can't drift around every corner or use loads of power the whole time.
Having driven and owned cars with all types of drivetrain configuration, however, I struggle to see how purely being RWD automatically makes a car more fun. My Ford has over 100bhp more, and with a couple of grands' worth of tuning it could have twice the power and nearly 3x the torque of the Japanese cars. As track cars they'll be way better, but for road use I'm not sure the decision would be as easy!
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P1H
131 posts
17 months
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Captain Muppet said: So the BR86 performs less well than some, but not all, hot hatches in one variable which you admit is relatively unimportant. You think this is a point worth arguing?
I'm out, this thread has already got silly. You genuinely can't think that was my point. Anyway it will all come down to personal preference. I can see why someone might prefer either the BRZ/AE6 route or the hot hatch route.
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C.A.R.
1,276 posts
57 months
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Thing with a hot hatch is that it is just a 'hot' version of something much more grey and dull.
The Focus RS for example, let's take that.
It's widely regarded as a good performance car, however the same interior, switchgear, certain body panels, badges - are all fitted to the same 1.8 TDCi fleet car. Worst part being the keyfob. Despite whatever flash 'RS' keychain you buy, the same key fob is found on your run-of-the-mill Fiesta.
The BRZ/GT86 is - as I see it - a competitor for the MX5. It's a grounds-up sportscar. An athlete as opposed to your average bloke in lycra running gear (not a pretty thing).
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cmoose
18,654 posts
98 months
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So much more to it that just oversteer. I really hope the BRZ/86 sells well. But I fear most punters and frankly an awful lot of PHers prefer pub ammo. So they'll take whatever's more powerful even if it has turbos, they'll take flappy paddle 'cuz it makes for better 'Ring times of based on some dubious racing link. I see relatively little evidence of cars succeeding as a consequence of a focus on driving involvement.
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cragswinter
6,323 posts
65 months
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C.A.R. said: Thing with a hot hatch is that it is just a 'hot' version of something much more grey and dull.
The Focus RS for example, let's take that.
It's widely regarded as a good performance car, however the same interior, switchgear, certain body panels, badges - are all fitted to the same 1.8 TDCi fleet car. Worst part being the keyfob. Despite whatever flash 'RS' keychain you buy, the same key fob is found on your run-of-the-mill Fiesta. Err the toyobaru is hardly a bespoke Aston is it?
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nottyash
3,703 posts
64 months
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Ive got a Legacy B4 saloon and a Honda S2000 "Sports car". If I want to get somewhere fast I would take the Legacy.
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OlberJ
11,980 posts
102 months
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C.A.R. said: Thing with a hot hatch is that it is just a 'hot' version of something much more grey and dull.
The Focus RS for example, let's take that.
It's widely regarded as a good performance car, however the same interior, switchgear, certain body panels, badges - are all fitted to the same 1.8 TDCi fleet car. Worst part being the keyfob. Despite whatever flash 'RS' keychain you buy, the same key fob is found on your run-of-the-mill Fiesta.
The BRZ/GT86 is - as I see it - a competitor for the MX5. It's a grounds-up sportscar. An athlete as opposed to your average bloke in lycra running gear (not a pretty thing). Yes, the key fob, that's what done it 
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