RE: SOTW: Saab 9000 Aero
Discussion
I've got a 9000 aero with 55k on the clock. It's easily the best all round car I have ever owned.
32mpg with 270 bhp is easy. I do fast lane speeds at less than 3k revs and the mpg meter well in the 30's. The advertising claims of being faster then a Diablo from 50-70 in top gear are truly believable.
Not much lives with it when you plant it in 5th and that big Mitsubishi turbo spools up to full boots.
As for torque steer? My theory is only girls and men with underdeveloped biceps suffer from it.
32mpg with 270 bhp is easy. I do fast lane speeds at less than 3k revs and the mpg meter well in the 30's. The advertising claims of being faster then a Diablo from 50-70 in top gear are truly believable.
Not much lives with it when you plant it in 5th and that big Mitsubishi turbo spools up to full boots.
As for torque steer? My theory is only girls and men with underdeveloped biceps suffer from it.
NiceCupOfTea said:
KM666, re the exhaust, as I understand it the turbo negates the need for a certain amount of back pressure in the exhaust and as such it just needs to be big enough to flow the gases away.
It does negate the effect to a certain extent but there is a limit it depends on where the lambda sensor is located if its before the turbo thats okay because it can still function it could cause warming show up lights on the dash, you can get away with a large bore exhaust on a turbo because the majority of back pressure is before the turbo but spool rate will change slightly meaning fueling will also have to change and not all ecu's can adapt as readily as others to extra demands, similarly increasing boost will add wear to the crank, pistons and valves I dont know the merits of the standard internals of saab 9000s, but for every single component changed there will be another wanting attention at the same time to cope. It sounds a bit like a bodge and estimated gains on the advertised carLove the 9000, first turbo'd one was a low pressure turbo automatic with 170bhp which was increased to 235bhp just by adding the missing apc valve, 3 hoses and a remap. Current aero has also had a stage 1 remap increasing it from standard 225 to around 265/270bhp. Currently hunting for a 3 inch downpipe which is required to move on to stage 3 which will be enough power for me to go along with brakes(already done), suspension and LSD.
Nice little video that demonstrates just how clever and how quickly the trionic ecu can adapt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KgH6WT1paU
Nice little video that demonstrates just how clever and how quickly the trionic ecu can adapt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KgH6WT1paU
I got one around 2004, and it was so good a car, when I moved from the UK to the US in 2009 I just could not bring myself to selling it. So now it is somewhere in a shed, only comes out once or twice a year so that I can use it when I occasionally visit Europe...
It just feels so solid and well built, never had that feeling in any other car.
Also, even though it is "only" 225 bhp, it is amusingly fast. I now drive a e39 M5, and frankly, once off the line (FWD!), there is not all that much between them. The M5 does actually need to be worked to go fast, while the Saab is effortless in any gear.
Ok, it is FWD, and not as sharp in the corners as the M5 obviously, but as a motorway cruiser (missile?), it is highly competent. With the awesome seats (never sat in anything that nice), it is the best way I have found to drive long distances, and you can still feel fresh as a daisy after a 10-hour drive across Europe. Hey, even mpg is not bad! (and not just when comparing to the M5! ;-) )
Only flaws I can think of: FWD (but still competent), no radio controls on the steering wheel (what were Saab thinking??), and while the boot is huge, it is a bit narrow so not so great to carry wide pieces of furniture. But awesome for general luggage. Also, there are some GM bits in mine since it is a 1996, and GM is evil, and cost me a bomb when the little 20p plastic part in the gearbox that used to be metal before GM came, broke and cost me over 600 quid to replace so that I could have a speedo and full boost again.
Still, for 1k, absolute bargain.
It just feels so solid and well built, never had that feeling in any other car.
Also, even though it is "only" 225 bhp, it is amusingly fast. I now drive a e39 M5, and frankly, once off the line (FWD!), there is not all that much between them. The M5 does actually need to be worked to go fast, while the Saab is effortless in any gear.
Ok, it is FWD, and not as sharp in the corners as the M5 obviously, but as a motorway cruiser (missile?), it is highly competent. With the awesome seats (never sat in anything that nice), it is the best way I have found to drive long distances, and you can still feel fresh as a daisy after a 10-hour drive across Europe. Hey, even mpg is not bad! (and not just when comparing to the M5! ;-) )
Only flaws I can think of: FWD (but still competent), no radio controls on the steering wheel (what were Saab thinking??), and while the boot is huge, it is a bit narrow so not so great to carry wide pieces of furniture. But awesome for general luggage. Also, there are some GM bits in mine since it is a 1996, and GM is evil, and cost me a bomb when the little 20p plastic part in the gearbox that used to be metal before GM came, broke and cost me over 600 quid to replace so that I could have a speedo and full boost again.
Still, for 1k, absolute bargain.
KM666 said:
Hmmm this is setting off all kinds of alarm bells for me, 270bhp (claimed, not proven) and 32mpg, sounds like porkies to me, and from just a de-cat and 'remap', is this car something people are likely to attempt 'turning the boost up'
My Stg 3 (remap, full exhaust from turbo back with sport cat) was supposed to make 285 bhp, and was rolling roaded at slightly above that.+60 bhp from map and exhaust - it can be done. Means the turbo and injectors are running at their limits, and the extra torque puts more stress on the drivetrain. Better to do with proper T5 software which keeps the engine safeties rather than an MBC.
Mine did quite a few track days and a couple of Ring trips running high boost without missing a beat until the head gasket went at 130k, but it wasn't expensive to fix.
Just checked my mpg records. Typically between 27 and 34 depending if I was doing shorter or long trips.
MrMoonyMan said:
trig9k said:
..Sold my black aero for £650 that was a bargain especialy with the 300hp it was pushing
..
Guess where that cars engine is now.. ..
the engine and Saaflight ecu was used in a BMW touring track car..the engine had 200k on it but was ultra reliableMy stg3 tuned 2.3 aero would do 36mpg at the speed limit no problem and my 20.lpt tuned to 240hp was good for 37/38mpg on the motorway, this is way more than I get from my current GM Saab 9-5 aero
Nearly got taken out in a head on by one of these recently, guy overtaking on a blind crest...they seem to get into the hands of lunatics who cant afford anything better and have to exloit the famed mid range overtaking ability at every opportunity. Friend of my wife's was left almost crippled in an accident with one some years ago too. Same thing, Saab driver doing silly overtake
trig9k said:
It's in a BMW the engine and Saaflight ecu was used in a BMW touring track car..the engine had 200k on it but was ultra reliable
It is indeed! the engine and Saaflight ecu was used in a BMW touring track car..the engine had 200k on it but was ultra reliableCheck my profile, car should be ready for some track days this summer..
As for the doubters, my 2.3 9000 will do nearly 40mpg on a run and has made a genuine 297bhp from only an exhaust and remap.All provable!
300bhp is nothing for these cars,talk to Abbott and the guts of 30mph is achieveable,torque steer is controllable by three things,suspension,tyre choice and driver style.Continental were the best if memory serves me correct having tried them all.Verdestine were plain dangerous and were returned after 2000 miles.anything over 300bhp starts to cause handling problems,Abbotts advice was stick with 300bhp and enjoy.anyone remember the 93 Viggan that had massive torque steer straight out of the factory which Abbott made a modification for and cured the problem.trying to remember what Abbotts Race Car Bhp was,well north of 300bhp.i would have one like a shot if they still made them.my old one is still a courtesy car for the gargage where i sold it and they still go on about fast it is,their day to day trade is mostly Astons ! two of the cars i had i put over 250,000 miles on them without major mechanical fault
Edited by dhf on Saturday 21st April 10:48
KM666 said:
It does negate the effect to a certain extent but there is a limit it depends on where the lambda sensor is located if its before the turbo thats okay because it can still function it could cause warming show up lights on the dash, you can get away with a large bore exhaust on a turbo because the majority of back pressure is before the turbo
The lamda sensor is after the turbo but before the Cat IIRC, KM666 said:
but spool rate will change slightly meaning fueling will also have to change and not all ecu's can adapt as readily as others to extra demands,
The advantage of a remap (rather than just increasing the boost with a MBC) is that a new fuel map is put on the ECU, I think 290 BHP is about the limit because soon after than you need a bigger fuel pump and injectors, as well as the bigger intercooler and turbo. The SAAB engine has a sophisticated anti knock sensing control, they called it APC back in 1980 and Trionic by 1991, so detects when the engine is starting to run lean and reduces boost, it also alters the map depending on the octane of the fuel. Engine failures are few and far between, even at high mileages.
KM666 said:
similarly increasing boost will add wear to the crank, pistons and valves I dont know the merits of the standard internals of saab 9000s, but for every single component changed there will be another wanting attention at the same time to cope. It sounds a bit like a bodge and estimated gains on the advertised car
As posted before the engines are very tough, they were over engineered with forged pistons e.t.c. and can live with 450-500 BHP happily enough. The gearboxes aren't that great though, although it does depend on the driver and how sympathetic they are. Quaife supply a stronger replacement gearbox, but it costs a lot more than this car does.No mention in the advert of whether this car has traction control or not, the system is best avoided because it came with an early version of a drive-by-wire throttle body, which can be troublesome. I had a very similar car to the advertised one and while it was great when it ran, it developed a faults with the throttle control so would go into limp home mode, not cheap to fix.
Strawman said:
No mention in the advert of whether this car has traction control or not, the system is best avoided because it came with an early version of a drive-by-wire throttle body, which can be troublesome. I had a very similar car to the advertised one and while it was great when it ran, it developed a faults with the throttle control so would go into limp home mode, not cheap to fix.
I have a 93 car with Traction Control, which is the one to "avoid". 94 onwards still had it but was a different switchable system. I had TCS issues recently with the car going into limp home mode - fixed with a new safety valve and some new vacuum hose fitted for buttons. It can be a faulty throttle body which causes the same issue which is more expensive, but not cripplingly so if you go to a specialist.I wouldn't let it put me off buying a 93 car if it was otherwise solid and well cared for.
MrMoonyMan said:
trig9k said:
It's in a BMW the engine and Saaflight ecu was used in a BMW touring track car..the engine had 200k on it but was ultra reliable
It is indeed! the engine and Saaflight ecu was used in a BMW touring track car..the engine had 200k on it but was ultra reliableCheck my profile, car should be ready for some track days this summer..
As for the doubters, my 2.3 9000 will do nearly 40mpg on a run and has made a genuine 297bhp from only an exhaust and remap.All provable!
Please tell me more!! did you buy this as an unfinished projet? , it was four years ago when this engine was fitted and its still not ready??
This was a fantastic looking car would be great to see it on track ,,any pics?
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