RE: Abandoned Enzo part of Dubai supercar sale

RE: Abandoned Enzo part of Dubai supercar sale

Author
Discussion

Hitch78

6,100 posts

193 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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One of my mates made an offer to a bank for a departed friends 2006 XJ8 that was sat in his drive - the bank's response was that they didn't have a process for valuing cars so how could they know whether it was a good deal for them.

He dumped it in on street parking and it sat there for at least six months after that - might even still be there!

CK_N4S

468 posts

181 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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TomMc1990 said:

Thank god for that. Im comparing it to a real one, but cant pick out any differences(im blaming the sand) what gives it away?
The easiest spot for me has allways been the lack of center locking wheel nut wink

Really expensive to fake that - so the 5 wheel nuts on this car is a dead giveaway that it is certainly not a F40.

CK

Wills2

22,669 posts

174 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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cjb1 said:
FFS!! I didn't say that I thought it was right to to bang people up for being in debt you clot, I merely stated the fact that it's illegal to fail to pay back a debt in that region. Nor did I suggest that Dubaie was financially secure, are dreaming some of the BS you write? Read before you type......
Wills2 said:
So you think we should start locking people up in debtors prisons then?

Plus Dubai is hardly the last word in financial prudence is it, having been bailed out by Abu dhabi.

Oi! Mr keyboard warrior calm down.

I asked a question perhaps you should read before you type, I then pointed out that whilst everyone is saying how naughty and wrong it is to be financially imprudent over there the state that makes these laws doesn't seem to set a good example.

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

264 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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craigb84 said:
Even worse...imagine going for an interview or on business abroad or something and your employer wants to put on an emirates / etihad flight. How do you tell them you can't fly through the UAE because you ran away from enormous debts?
I know this one! You say "I can't fly through the UAE because I ran away from enormous debts".

I'm assuming here that you can learn humility from making expensive mistakes.

OdramaSwimLaden

1,971 posts

168 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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My friend for 20 years brought into a property business in Dubai; leaving his job in the UK and selling his house he brought into his best mate's business (ex-best man at wedding). He was not aware that his friend was massively in debt and now, once he signed on the dotted line, was part owner of the debt.

The first he knew is the offices were raided and staff were arrested. Co-owner no where to be seen and all staff, apart from Sam, were released.

Sam's parents had to sell house to pay approx. £300k of debt. It took 12 months and they sold their house for whatever they could get for it; they were gazumped twice and sold it to a well known footballer in the end! His mate who caused all this has never been seen again.

Captain Muppet

8,540 posts

264 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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kaiowas said:
fatboy69 said:
BBS-LM said:
Would you really leave this just sitting there, fk!



Edited by BBS-LM on Monday 23 April 17:57
This one has, if I recall, been discussed on other forums. Apparently it isn't an F40. It's a replica possibly based on an MR2 although I stand to be corrected.
Definitely a mk1 MR2, popup headlamp covers, triangle at the front of the door glass where the mirror would normally be, the shape of the door glass, the clips around the rubber door seal and general shape of the canopy are all a dead giveaway when you look closely. As a mk1 enthusiast who lusts after an F40 I'm not sure what to think of it.
>counts wheel nuts<

>looks at windscreen surround<

>looks at B-pillar<

>looks at roof profile above the side window<

How big a mk1 MR2 fan are you?

zebedee

4,589 posts

277 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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kaiowas said:
fatboy69 said:
BBS-LM said:
Would you really leave this just sitting there, fk!



Edited by BBS-LM on Monday 23 April 17:57
This one has, if I recall, been discussed on other forums. Apparently it isn't an F40. It's a replica possibly based on an MR2 although I stand to be corrected.
Definitely a mk1 MR2, popup headlamp covers, triangle at the front of the door glass where the mirror would normally be, the shape of the door glass, the clips around the rubber door seal and general shape of the canopy are all a dead giveaway when you look closely. As a mk1 enthusiast who lusts after an F40 I'm not sure what to think of it.
not sure what based on but the lenses in the front are too long, it should have round side indicator repeaters, the ducts are all to square but it is the side and rear three-quarter glass treatment that is all wrong.

Not quite as wrong as this though: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/03/low-budget-ferr...

cjb1

2,000 posts

150 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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during the couple of years I was in Dubai I learn't that on the whole the expats were a decent bunch making an honest living and living within their means, but there was a portion of the community were yuppie get rich quick tossers selling 'real estate' yar luvvie,(to you real people that's property!!) They had failed elsewhere in the world and had come to the UAE to see if they could be a success at failing there too!

Those are the ones that dump exotica at the airport and do a Lord Lucan.

5705

1,165 posts

151 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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Hitch78 said:
ETA: the comment “Before the crisis, the check issue wasn’t highlighted to foreigners. It’s only since the crisis that this has really come to light publicly,” from the CNBC thing is nonsense.

I started looking at coming out here in mid-2008 before the wheels fell off and it was amongst the first things I read. I feel sorry for the more genuine people caught up in it, but a big number are paying a price of unchecked greed and stupidity. Big big price mind.
Exactly - it was the first thing I learned in my stint there in the '90s (it rather focuses the mind). I had to write a year's worth of post-dated cheques just to get an office rental. It's standard real estate practice there.

What the CNBC thing is really saying is that the media only started mentioning this issue once their schadenfreude kicked in.

agxster

396 posts

180 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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Mike Biddle said:
When taking out any loan in Dubai you will have to sign a "security cheque" for the entire amount of the loan which the bank then holds in case you default.

If you default, they will present the cheque for payment, and after it has bounced 3 times they can go to the police and register a criminal complaint against you for writing a dud cheque.
Their system makes no sense. If you can't make monthly repayments on a loan then surely it's fairly obvious you have no money in the bank which makes the security cheques worthless.

Hitch78

6,100 posts

193 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
quotequote all
agxster said:
Mike Biddle said:
When taking out any loan in Dubai you will have to sign a "security cheque" for the entire amount of the loan which the bank then holds in case you default.

If you default, they will present the cheque for payment, and after it has bounced 3 times they can go to the police and register a criminal complaint against you for writing a dud cheque.
Their system makes no sense. If you can't make monthly repayments on a loan then surely it's fairly obvious you have no money in the bank which makes the security cheques worthless.
Not quite true, in the case of an absconder the bank has lost but at least they have had an immediate chance of getting their money back which probably results in the same return rate as the drawn out UK process.

It also does drives behaviour. Ignoring the thin layer of flash gits/tits mentioned in the post above it generally results in people being careful and managing their expenditure to make sure that a cheque doesn't bounce.

oilit

2,618 posts

177 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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this has to be a better proposition doesnt it?

http://www.bidspotter.co.uk/forms/TimedAuctionList...

007 VXR

64,187 posts

186 months

Wednesday 25th April 2012
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Anyone know what the Enzo sold for ?

shirt

22,508 posts

200 months

Thursday 26th April 2012
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http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/no-sale-s...


Many British, Americans, Indians and Russians have asked to buy a limited edition red Ferrari Enzo, that has been gathering dust at the Dubai Police car pound, along with several other luxury cars.

Despite rumours of an impending auction circulating around the world, Dubai Police told Emirates 24|7 that the cars have been seized as part of evidence from various crimes such as robbery, and are not for sale.

Captain Khalid Al Kamali, said 9 luxury cars have been seized as they were part of thefts. Seven of them were stolen from their owners within the UAE, and two cars from abroad.

"The one Ferrari Enzo and the another regular Ferrari are required by Interpol. So, the nine cars are not for sale."

"We have received many calls from traders - Britons, Americans, Russians and Indians want to buy the Ferrari Enzo, worth about a $1 million, after a report published by Emirates 24|7 on luxury cars seized at the General Directorate of Traffic in Dubai.

He said the cars on Interpol notice are usually stolen from another country. "They shall not be disposed of, except in accordance with procedures specified in coordination between the real owner of the car, Interpol and the Interior Ministry in the UAE," said Capt Al Kamali.

There are more than 35 cars luxury cars at the Dubai Police car pound of which, nine [including the Ferari Enzo] are not for sale based on reports of theft.

The rest are held for various reasons including failure to renew the licence of the car for a long time and non-payment of accumulated fines.

Also, some are held as they were involved in accidents and their owners fled from the scene, and some cars are held at the request of the investigation, or issues still pending in court.

The nine stolen cars include the two Ferraris (both red), yellow Porsche, silver Porsche, black Corvette, silver BMW and three black Mercedes.

Capt Al Kamali stressed that vehicles that are booked based on claims or reports of domestic or international theft cannot be part of the auctions organised by the Traffic Department of Dubai.

Auctions are for all other cars that have been with the polie for more than 6 months, have not been involved in crime and have been unclaimed by their owners. According to Law 34 of 2008, such cars can be auctioned following an announcement published in the local press 30 days before the date of the auction.


Clivey

5,108 posts

203 months

Thursday 26th April 2012
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^ Well I hope the cars mentioned aren't left to rot / "disposed of" in any other way than ending-up in the hands of a careful new owner...some people just don't deserve to have nice cars. frown

72911

111 posts

164 months

Thursday 26th April 2012
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This thread is brilliant.

There was - and is - no Enzo for sale.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/abandoned-...

There are however several auction in the UAE a week that selle everything from Datsuns to Lambos - but then again, so does the lot on Wandsworth Bridge...

Donkey62

227 posts

164 months

Thursday 26th April 2012
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I think the real point here is not just running away from debts but prison sentances often result disproportionate amount of abuse and torture particularly for certain ethnic ex-pats and immigrants.

Mike Biddle

84 posts

193 months

Sunday 29th April 2012
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Not a simple process for the bank to reposes and sell the car, so many just don't bother because they have the criminal law behind them.

No way to get the car out of the country because that would require the registered owner to turn up at the RTA, show his passport and go through the process of de registering the car. Needless to say he would not make it to the RTA.

Now to those who criticise things they don’t understand, I have been in Dubai for 17 years now and I strongly support the position that fraud should be illegal, a criminal offence, and punishable by a jail term, anyone got any problems with that? Furthermore the system is a lot more flexible and sensible than in many other jurisdictions.

Years ago I had an employee in one of my companies who embezzled about 37,000 pounds out of the business. We caught on to this and registered criminal case against him. He begged for mercy and asked for time to pay the money back on a monthly basis, which we agreed to and an agreement was drawn up by our lawyers and presented to the court, which accepted it and the prosecution was suspended pending his compliance with the contract, part of which required him to sign a security cheque.

He defaulted on the agreement so many times that eventually, we had no choice but to present the cheque and go to the police. He was arrested, and hauled before the court, receiving a two year jail sentence for writing a cheque without having sufficient funds in his account, in addition to the original fraud charges.

Again he begged for mercy and again a contract was drawn up whereby he promised to pay a mutually agreed amount back every month, and this time, if he defaulted the court would allow no choice and impose the two year sentence.

Now, is this a fair system? I think so, we got our money back and he stayed out of jail because we forgave him the fraud offence. What’s wrong with that?

Re the situation with the car loans, taking a loan and then leaving the country in order to avoid paying for it is FRAUD, plain and simple. It’s a massive problem in this country, where the vast majority of the population is expats (approx 3 million out of a total of 4.5 million) here on a temporary basis, and just cannot be compared with the UK.

The system must have strict laws in place to prevent, as far as possible otherwise it could have serious c consequences for the financial system. It’s no wonder that interest rates are so high here when the financial institutions have to cope with these fraudsters. The banks will negotiate different payment terms if a borrower gets into trouble, there is no excuse for just running away, that is totally dishonest!

Same goes for the strict criminal laws here; the country is vulnerable to the high percentage of expats, and the government has a duty to protect society. I have lived here for 17 tears and it is a great place to love and raise a family primarily because of those laws.

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Sunday 29th April 2012
quotequote all
Mike Biddle said:
Not a simple process for the bank to reposes and sell the car, so many just don't bother because they have the criminal law behind them.

No way to get the car out of the country because that would require the registered owner to turn up at the RTA, show his passport and go through the process of de registering the car. Needless to say he would not make it to the RTA.

Now to those who criticise things they don’t understand, I have been in Dubai for 17 years now and I strongly support the position that fraud should be illegal, a criminal offence, and punishable by a jail term, anyone got any problems with that? Furthermore the system is a lot more flexible and sensible than in many other jurisdictions.

Years ago I had an employee in one of my companies who embezzled about 37,000 pounds out of the business. We caught on to this and registered criminal case against him. He begged for mercy and asked for time to pay the money back on a monthly basis, which we agreed to and an agreement was drawn up by our lawyers and presented to the court, which accepted it and the prosecution was suspended pending his compliance with the contract, part of which required him to sign a security cheque.

He defaulted on the agreement so many times that eventually, we had no choice but to present the cheque and go to the police. He was arrested, and hauled before the court, receiving a two year jail sentence for writing a cheque without having sufficient funds in his account, in addition to the original fraud charges.

Again he begged for mercy and again a contract was drawn up whereby he promised to pay a mutually agreed amount back every month, and this time, if he defaulted the court would allow no choice and impose the two year sentence.

Now, is this a fair system? I think so, we got our money back and he stayed out of jail because we forgave him the fraud offence. What’s wrong with that?

Re the situation with the car loans, taking a loan and then leaving the country in order to avoid paying for it is FRAUD, plain and simple. It’s a massive problem in this country, where the vast majority of the population is expats (approx 3 million out of a total of 4.5 million) here on a temporary basis, and just cannot be compared with the UK.

The system must have strict laws in place to prevent, as far as possible otherwise it could have serious c consequences for the financial system. It’s no wonder that interest rates are so high here when the financial institutions have to cope with these fraudsters. The banks will negotiate different payment terms if a borrower gets into trouble, there is no excuse for just running away, that is totally dishonest!

Same goes for the strict criminal laws here; the country is vulnerable to the high percentage of expats, and the government has a duty to protect society. I have lived here for 17 tears and it is a great place to love and raise a family primarily because of those laws.
sounds far more sensible and fair than UK law

"well we don't really want to punish him, its only his 137th offense and he is after all a third generation welfare dependent so its not really his fault, and he wasn't speeding."



5705

1,165 posts

151 months

Sunday 29th April 2012
quotequote all
Mike Biddle said:
Now to those who criticise things they don’t understand, I have been in Dubai for 17 years now and I strongly support the position that fraud should be illegal, a criminal offence, and punishable by a jail term, anyone got any problems with that? Furthermore the system is a lot more flexible and sensible than in many other jurisdictions.
Well, having lived there, too, I do understand, and the problem is that the system quickly turns temporary hardship into criminality (as well as punishing a few genuine fraudsters).

For starters, being required to hand over post-dated cheques for a whole year's worth of rent to your landlord is (was?) standard. Lose your job, and you're instantly in a very weak position with your landlord*. Unless you can find another job quickly (and in the UAE, the 'necessary' bureaucracy makes that very difficult), your next cheque will bounce and at this point the system treats you as a fraudster.

* I had to pay over the pro-rata rent to buy myself out of a tenancy contract for this reason