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Jayho

1,565 posts

56 months

[news] 
Wednesday 25th April 2012 quote quote all
redgriff500 said:
Ah yes - the old a 4.6 Rover V8 is too slow...

Approx 250bhp in 1100kg car - so what is your DAILY driver ?

I see this a lot on the RX7 forum where people look down on 300odd bhp cars, when you look at their posts you see their 450bhp RX7 hasn't been on the road for a year and they drive a Mondeo everyday. woohoo
I'm guessing you wouldn't hesitate to replace your Rotary with a V block then? Speaking from the RX7 point of view, if you replace the engine I'd assume that the characteristics and charm of the original car would be significantly reduced?

Same goes with the hypothetical question you've asked in your OP. Its taken a car which was built with a certain characteristic and hindering it by replacing it. Being at the side of the road is the Cerbs characteristic. Please dont change it. I like something astetically pleasing when I'm having a wee hoon. :P

I always think of the engine of a car as a the Heart of a car. (ECU the brain, humans are just there for the ride) If you have a heart transplant, even if it prolongs your life, you're never going to be the same as before.

My 2p

redgriff500

Original Poster:

9,427 posts

149 months

[news] 
Wednesday 25th April 2012 quote quote all
Basil Brush said:
For about 8 years and c.50k miles my daily was my Tuscan, complete with unreliable TVR S6 motor. smile
Ah but what is it now ?

Also Servicing/Repairs: £2,617 a year doesn't make it sound very reliable.

Jag-D

19,633 posts

105 months

[news] 
Wednesday 25th April 2012 quote quote all
BlueEyedBoy said:
Jag-D said:
Hang about there bossman, I fully admit I didn't read the post properly as I was working at the time, but nice to see that small mistakes can be overlooked on PH these days wink

rolleyes

So in the case of yourself, it's classed as reliable? Funny as most of the people I've known with Cerberas have had several rebuilds on both 4.2 and 4.5

But I'm Mr Bullst...what the fk would I know eh?
If we are talking about the old days you wouldn't have posted a comment saying you could smell bullst and would have maybe asked me to clarify the comment wink

I thought I was quite clearly saying that just replacing the engine is not going to make a cerbera reliable. Yes I got lucky and mine was, and to some extent why I sold it before the magic was lost, but at the back of my mind was always the thought of something going wrong and the 2K average bill, but it was never the engine that worried me.
I've always been a straight shooter old days or not smile

I can't see why replacing the engine with an LS or SBC wouldn't make it reliable as it's an unstressed, tried and tested engine in both road, race and extreme guises.

I can't imagine why anyway would swap an AJP for an RV8, but that's just me

Basil Brush

4,195 posts

149 months

[news] 
Wednesday 25th April 2012 quote quote all
redgriff500 said:
Basil Brush said:
For about 8 years and c.50k miles my daily was my Tuscan, complete with unreliable TVR S6 motor. smile
Ah but what is it now ?

Also Servicing/Repairs: £2,617 a year doesn't make it sound very reliable.
Not the Tuscan currently as I spend most of my time now driving up and down the M1.

Reliability and servicing costs are two very different things though.

redgriff500

Original Poster:

9,427 posts

149 months

[news] 
Wednesday 25th April 2012 quote quote all
Jayho said:
I'm guessing you wouldn't hesitate to replace your Rotary with a V block then? Speaking from the RX7 point of view, if you replace the engine I'd assume that the characteristics and charm of the original car would be significantly reduced?
Yes I'm planning a 1UZ V8 Transplant on it - I have both donors.

The charm of constantly looking at gauges and 15mpg is somewhat over rated

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theironduke

6,995 posts

74 months

[news] 
Wednesday 25th April 2012 quote quote all
Cerb with an RV8= Quick car

Cerb with it's TVR V8= Supercar quick (well, maybe not these days but still into the BLOODY quick catagory!)

I've got a Chim and love the RV8 but personally wouldn't be a Cerb without it having a TVR powerplant.

k-ink

6,070 posts

65 months

[news] 
Wednesday 25th April 2012 quote quote all
When you come to sell it you only have to find one buyer, not please the vast majority.

Another option is this: buy a cheap version and save for an LS transplant while you run it.

dvs_dave

4,030 posts

111 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
redgriff500 said:
Dave and SoCalled - you clearly haven't read this thread very well.

On the 3rd post I put up a link to an AJP that was rebuilt by TVR Power at 35k and it then needed ANOTHER rebuild at 49k - how do you explain that ?

Look down the classifieds how many have had a rebuild ?

A rare few haven't had one but is that a good engine or just lucky so far ?

I'm not saying anyone's opinion is wrong regarding price / desirability of alternative engines but saying the TVR engines are reliable is ridiculous even rotaries last longer.
I've read the thread very well and ignored the anecdotal evidence presented that you and many others are basing their opinions on, and presented you with the facts as they stand today.

Many TVR's have had an engine rebuild due to shoddy build/rebuild quality. Once rebuilt properly they're pretty bullet proof and "reliable". There are of course exceptions (as with everything) but without knowing the facts surrounding them it's pointless to dwell on them.

Whatever engine is in it though, you will find that it will have much the same overall maintenance costs and general reliability as it always had as the engine is only one part of whole the car.

Values wise the only engine swap that could maintain or increase (by a fraction of the conversion cost) the car's market value in the short to near term would be an LS done by a proper credentialed builder. Anything less than this, not a chance, and in the long term originality will remain king.


JPearson

905 posts

48 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
They're only unreliable if you treat them like st

DonkeyApple

17,283 posts

55 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
JPearson said:
They're only unreliable if you treat them like st
I've often suspected that this is one of the biggest problems with TVRs.

I've had 3 different ones now over the last 20 years and to be honest I just haven't encompasses the problems that many people talk of.

The commonality between my cars is that they are garaged, generally only used in sensible weather and most importantly driven with mechanical sympathy.

But I've seen plenty of Tivs being treated and driven a of they were Vectras late for a double glazing conference. I've never quite understood why people have tended to treat this type of sports car like a holiday hire car.

phib

2,760 posts

145 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
Had most tvr's when they were new and a few since. Had chimaera's first then griffs followed by a 99 sp6 cerbera and 4.5 cerbera free.

This was 13 years ago so I suspect the cars have been fettled and been changed over the years.

My sp6 spent about 9 months out of the first 12 in blackpool had 3 engines, gearbox etc etc and most other parts before they decided to give me a 4.5 for free.

In hindsight I shouldn't have had one of the first ones but at that point in life I was an early adopted and loved the latest things.

If I had to have another one again it would be a 4.5

Phib

redgriff500

Original Poster:

9,427 posts

149 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
dvs_dave said:
Once rebuilt properly they're pretty bullet proof and "reliable".
So in the example I gave... your saying TVR Power don't rebuild them properly then.

Strange I thought they were supposed to be one of the best.

Mr2Mike

12,322 posts

141 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
Dave 500 said:
I would never buy a Cerbera without a TVR engine just think, would you buy a Porsche with an American V8 or an Aston with a Honda power plant.
That's because Honda and Porsche can make engines that last, so there is no incentive to change them. Honda in particular can make a very high revving engine with a higher specific power output than the AJP that can reach 200k+ without breaking a sweat.

DonkeyApple

17,283 posts

55 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
Mr2Mike said:
That's because Honda and Porsche can make engines that last, so there is no incentive to change them. Honda in particular can make a very high revving engine with a higher specific power output than the AJP that can reach 200k+ without breaking a sweat.
And they did this for a couple of million quid? wink

Zippee

10,130 posts

120 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
redgriff500 said:
dvs_dave said:
Once rebuilt properly they're pretty bullet proof and "reliable".
So in the example I gave... your saying TVR Power don't rebuild them properly then.

Strange I thought they were supposed to be one of the best.
To be fair, you're quoting one example with no back up as to what caused the 2 rebuilds.

Mr2Mike

12,322 posts

141 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
DonkeyApple said:
Mr2Mike said:
That's because Honda and Porsche can make engines that last, so there is no incentive to change them. Honda in particular can make a very high revving engine with a higher specific power output than the AJP that can reach 200k+ without breaking a sweat.
And they did this for a couple of million quid? wink
I don't know what their budget was, but why is that even relevant? Are you saying that it's ok for the AJP engine to be unreliable because it was developed on a small budget?

Fire99

8,682 posts

115 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
redgriff500 said:
So in the example I gave... your saying TVR Power don't rebuild them properly then.

Strange I thought they were supposed to be one of the best.
To be fair it sounds like you already have the answer you want, in your own head. Do what pleases you.

DonkeyApple

17,283 posts

55 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
Mr2Mike said:
DonkeyApple said:
Mr2Mike said:
That's because Honda and Porsche can make engines that last, so there is no incentive to change them. Honda in particular can make a very high revving engine with a higher specific power output than the AJP that can reach 200k+ without breaking a sweat.
And they did this for a couple of million quid? wink
I don't know what their budget was, but why is that even relevant? Are you saying that it's ok for the AJP engine to be unreliable because it was developed on a small budget?
It's kind of very relevant and I'm not saying it is OK for an engine to be unreliable.

At the end of the day it's just a factor of business, chapter 1, page 1.

The more money you have to develop a product and then the more sales you have to ammortise that spend and gain profit the better.

A business building ultra low volumes tends to mean a product that is extremely expensive, but in a competitive market you have to build to a price. And there lies the disadvantage.

If you are building to a budget and only building a few hundred units then you can't use the best technology to ensure 100% build consistency, parts consistency or anything.

For example the new era of TVR heads are being designed and built using state of the art techniques and processes to ensure excellent tollerances and consistency. One of these heads costs more than TVR were originally paying for the entire engine. And yet Honda and the like can churn out even better heads for a few quid due to economies of scale. So, yes the size of the firm very clearly has an impact that would lead you to summise that the ultra low volume unit, built to a budget, will almost certainly not be as robust etc.

Mr2Mike

12,322 posts

141 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
DonkeyApple said:
It's kind of very relevant and I'm not saying it is OK for an engine to be unreliable.
It's still not relevant to the original post I quoted. You probably wouldn't want to put a different engine in your Honda or your Porsche because the one it comes with is very robust. The same logic can not be applied to the TVR, and the fact that the development budget for the AJP was very small by most manufacturers standards does not change this.

redgriff500

Original Poster:

9,427 posts

149 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th April 2012 quote quote all
Fire99 said:
redgriff500 said:
So in the example I gave... your saying TVR Power don't rebuild them properly then.

Strange I thought they were supposed to be one of the best.
To be fair it sounds like you already have the answer you want, in your own head. Do what pleases you.
No - my original question stands.

This part of the thread has simply wandered into farce due to some thinking that just because a small percentage haven't been rebuilt before 30k that makes then reliable.

I would far rather have one without a TVR engine BUT I don't want to left with an unsellable car if I'm in a minority of one and I must admit that I'm very surprised at the percentage prefering TVR engines.

Would I stick an Audi / Lexus V8 in a Ferrari or a Lambo - yes I would.

Indeed Audi already do tongue out


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