RE: Chris Harris video: Lotus Exige S
Discussion
RichyBoy said:
Why did they hold back on the emissions for our market when it's already in the highest tax band?
This is down to the coast-down figure, the time/distance required for the car in neutral to slow from a given speed - the vehicles co-efficient of drag has a greater effect on this then the mass. Evora is a slippery car, Exige is less so. So basically the Exige has more drag, but intern generates more down force for high speed cornering then Evora, the down side being increase fuel consumptionBoggy
A very good review of a very good car, I wish Lotus every success and those with enough cash will, I'm sure, enjoy the car when they eventually take delivery. I won't be buying one though because every time I've driven an Elise on track or have been a passenger it makes me as sick as a dog (worse as a passenger)so I'll just have to stick to my Esprit for the forseable future
Chris Harris said:
otolith said:
It would appear that the engineers at Lotus disagree with you - but then they've always tended to go their own way. What system exemplifies how you would implement it?
I've driven TC on an F1 car, GT1 and and GT2 racer. Also on every major supercar/ sports car of the past 10 yrs. The Exige S has the best calibrated systems I've used on a road car. In the wet. Chris Harris said:
I've driven TC on an F1 car, GT1 and and GT2 racer. Also on every major supercar/ sports car of the past 10 yrs. The Exige S has the best calibrated systems I've used on a road car. In the wet.
Chris,I'm interested to know what you mean by 'best system'? Best as in fastest? Best as in least intrusive? In the video, the engine revs sound like their hunting which should ideally be tuned out. In a well calibrated system, you should have a nice constant level of slip which is maintained with minimal surging.
With regards the actual tuning, I strongly suspect that Bosch engineering did the application and Lotus would have had little to do with the actual parameter tuning. Porsche on the other hand do actually have an entire department who develop the DSC to what they feel their customers want.
What, to you, defines a good DSC system, and what would you ideally like to actually see implemented in the tuning?
I would have thought Lotus did all the gain tuning and mapping. Bosch will supply the system but the PID control gains, and the phasing of throttle, retard and spark cut and the slip targets and mapping to lat acc will have to come from Lotus as it will be independent to each engine / car. In fact if you are going to be pedantic the F1 teams used to map the TC corner to corner and for each section of the corner to give more or less slip and hence more or less o/s.
you can hear the engine revs changing in the video but that could be correct depending on the phase of the corner you are in, min revs at apex picking up the revs as you go to the exit. As every road test seems to say the TC is spot on I am guessing we are going to have to go with it being right.
cheers
C43
you can hear the engine revs changing in the video but that could be correct depending on the phase of the corner you are in, min revs at apex picking up the revs as you go to the exit. As every road test seems to say the TC is spot on I am guessing we are going to have to go with it being right.
cheers
C43
ArosaMike said:
Chris,
I'm interested to know what you mean by 'best system'? Best as in fastest? Best as in least intrusive? In the video, the engine revs sound like their hunting which should ideally be tuned out. In a well calibrated system, you should have a nice constant level of slip which is maintained with minimal surging.
With regards the actual tuning, I strongly suspect that Bosch engineering did the application and Lotus would have had little to do with the actual parameter tuning. Porsche on the other hand do actually have an entire department who develop the DSC to what they feel their customers want.
What, to you, defines a good DSC system, and what would you ideally like to actually see implemented in the tuning?
Watch the video again. There is nearly no surge in touring mode where the system is doing the job of a traditional system, the surging is in race mode where the idea is to get as much acceleration as possible and hence as the grip is varying the power should be varying and hence the surging. It is supposed to be doing that, you could tune it out but you would lose the point of race mode.I'm interested to know what you mean by 'best system'? Best as in fastest? Best as in least intrusive? In the video, the engine revs sound like their hunting which should ideally be tuned out. In a well calibrated system, you should have a nice constant level of slip which is maintained with minimal surging.
With regards the actual tuning, I strongly suspect that Bosch engineering did the application and Lotus would have had little to do with the actual parameter tuning. Porsche on the other hand do actually have an entire department who develop the DSC to what they feel their customers want.
What, to you, defines a good DSC system, and what would you ideally like to actually see implemented in the tuning?
Porsche do have a huge number of engineers working on Vehicle Dynamics (I have spent time with them when we have shared tracks for testing) but ultimately they have 3 modes on their systems (equivalent to touring, sport and off) and they skip out the race mode entirely.
I have never been in a car that could drive out of a wet corner like that on sports tyres (Pirelli Corsas) at full pedal without having a hissy fit.
toppstuff said:
I love, love love that car. The Exige S looks like a great bit of kit.
Well done Lotus.
Sadly, however, I cannot buy one.
Many moons ago when the Elise platform was conceived, someone somewhere deemed that only little people should be allowed to buy one.
If you are over 6ft tall or possessed of long legs ( I have) then it is more cramped than being squeezed into a tin of biscuits.
If Lotus had engineered just a couple more inches of length and width to this platform, it could serve them much better in terms of flexibility for other uses.
The car is just too damn small.
You must be an oddball, i'm 6'3" & the cabin size is no issue.Well done Lotus.
Sadly, however, I cannot buy one.
Many moons ago when the Elise platform was conceived, someone somewhere deemed that only little people should be allowed to buy one.
If you are over 6ft tall or possessed of long legs ( I have) then it is more cramped than being squeezed into a tin of biscuits.
If Lotus had engineered just a couple more inches of length and width to this platform, it could serve them much better in terms of flexibility for other uses.
The car is just too damn small.
ArosaMike said:
Chris,
I'm interested to know what you mean by 'best system'? Best as in fastest? Best as in least intrusive? In the video, the engine revs sound like their hunting which should ideally be tuned out. In a well calibrated system, you should have a nice constant level of slip which is maintained with minimal surging.
With regards the actual tuning, I strongly suspect that Bosch engineering did the application and Lotus would have had little to do with the actual parameter tuning. Porsche on the other hand do actually have an entire department who develop the DSC to what they feel their customers want.
What, to you, defines a good DSC system, and what would you ideally like to actually see implemented in the tuning?
I'm trying to excite the car in the video. Gauging an opinion on the quality of an ESP system from the (slightly ropey) audio on a video is a bit speculative. I'm interested to know what you mean by 'best system'? Best as in fastest? Best as in least intrusive? In the video, the engine revs sound like their hunting which should ideally be tuned out. In a well calibrated system, you should have a nice constant level of slip which is maintained with minimal surging.
With regards the actual tuning, I strongly suspect that Bosch engineering did the application and Lotus would have had little to do with the actual parameter tuning. Porsche on the other hand do actually have an entire department who develop the DSC to what they feel their customers want.
What, to you, defines a good DSC system, and what would you ideally like to actually see implemented in the tuning?
Best, as in least obtrusive, best suited to the chassis characteristics of the car. Most effective for the potential owners of the car: safe for amateurs, not intrusive and yet intuitive and allowing yaw for better drivers. Matt Becker says he's faster in race mode, in the dry. If you've ever sat next to him in a Lotus product, you'd be inclined to believe him.
In the wet, this car's systems are much more subtle than the 4.0 RS, but then it has 150hp less.
Bosch did the tuning, Lotus were obviously there for final calibration. My understanding of the way Porsche tunes its systems for GT cars differs from yours.
I'm merely reporting that I think the systems are better than I've previously experienced. You don't have to believe it.
Chris Harris said:
I'm trying to excite the car in the video. Gauging an opinion on the quality of an ESP system from the (slightly ropey) audio on a video is a bit speculative.
Best, as in least obtrusive, best suited to the chassis characteristics of the car. Most effective for the potential owners of the car: safe for amateurs, not intrusive and yet intuitive and allowing yaw for better drivers. Matt Becker says he's faster in race mode, in the dry. If you've ever sat next to him in a Lotus product, you'd be inclined to believe him.
In the wet, this car's systems are much more subtle than the 4.0 RS, but then it has 150hp less.
Bosch did the tuning, Lotus were obviously there for final calibration. My understanding of the way Porsche tunes its systems for GT cars differs from yours.
I'm merely reporting that I think the systems are better than I've previously experienced. You don't have to believe it.
I think it's easy for those of us who develop the systems to get overly focused on certain things. 99% of customers don't really have much of an opinion on the systems unless they appear overly intrusive.Best, as in least obtrusive, best suited to the chassis characteristics of the car. Most effective for the potential owners of the car: safe for amateurs, not intrusive and yet intuitive and allowing yaw for better drivers. Matt Becker says he's faster in race mode, in the dry. If you've ever sat next to him in a Lotus product, you'd be inclined to believe him.
In the wet, this car's systems are much more subtle than the 4.0 RS, but then it has 150hp less.
Bosch did the tuning, Lotus were obviously there for final calibration. My understanding of the way Porsche tunes its systems for GT cars differs from yours.
I'm merely reporting that I think the systems are better than I've previously experienced. You don't have to believe it.
Personally, if I'm tuning any mode, be it race, normal or any kind of winter or 'safe' mode, I like good, subtle control that you'd struggle to identify as being an intervention. Generally these atributes can be carried accross between different modes with varying amounts of slip and varying amounts of 'looseness'.
Perhaps what I'm getting at is that it's all too easy for me to focus on areas that I see as an issue, and it's quite hard to come at it from a blind point of view.
Overall, I'm inclined to believe the DSC is pretty good. The understeer control in the Evora I drove last month was actually really quite nicely judged. I do wish that Lotus hadn't chirped on about all this amazing 'new' technology though when it's actually been around for half a decade!
ArosaMike said:
I think it's easy for those of us who develop the systems to get overly focused on certain things. 99% of customers don't really have much of an opinion on the systems unless they appear overly intrusive.
Personally, if I'm tuning any mode, be it race, normal or any kind of winter or 'safe' mode, I like good, subtle control that you'd struggle to identify as being an intervention. Generally these atributes can be carried accross between different modes with varying amounts of slip and varying amounts of 'looseness'.
Perhaps what I'm getting at is that it's all too easy for me to focus on areas that I see as an issue, and it's quite hard to come at it from a blind point of view.
Overall, I'm inclined to believe the DSC is pretty good. The understeer control in the Evora I drove last month was actually really quite nicely judged. I do wish that Lotus hadn't chirped on about all this amazing 'new' technology though when it's actually been around for half a decade!
Which vehicle system have you developed?Personally, if I'm tuning any mode, be it race, normal or any kind of winter or 'safe' mode, I like good, subtle control that you'd struggle to identify as being an intervention. Generally these atributes can be carried accross between different modes with varying amounts of slip and varying amounts of 'looseness'.
Perhaps what I'm getting at is that it's all too easy for me to focus on areas that I see as an issue, and it's quite hard to come at it from a blind point of view.
Overall, I'm inclined to believe the DSC is pretty good. The understeer control in the Evora I drove last month was actually really quite nicely judged. I do wish that Lotus hadn't chirped on about all this amazing 'new' technology though when it's actually been around for half a decade!
They certainly need a proper modern 2-seater sports car with a bit of power which they can get out and sell.
Time will tell whether grafting the back of an Evora onto the front of an Elise will actually do the trick.
Whatever happens, this Exige V6 looks a better bet than the daft and expensive Evora.
Time will tell whether grafting the back of an Evora onto the front of an Elise will actually do the trick.
Whatever happens, this Exige V6 looks a better bet than the daft and expensive Evora.
I'm sorry to keep harping on about it, but i can't see the issue with Lotus doing what they are good at (lightweight inteligent design) and doing an "eco sports car". Sat way back in the spring of 2002, no one though "ooh, i must get out a develop a high fuel economy hatchback", but, 10 years later, if you're hatchback doesn't do <125g/km then it's an also ran. High fuel prices and Tax have seen to that. From where i'm sat these factors aren't going to get any less of an issue. Lotus are supremely wel placed to leverage this, as makers of small, lightweight cars they immediately have a massive advantage over the more conventional OE's when it comes to optimising for fuel economy. (lets face it, OE's are now moving to EPAS, Lotus doesn't even need to fit any PAS!).
Take an exige tub, do a low capacity (lets say 1.4 4 cyl) high boost engine (180bhp and 220Nm) optimise the drag, and rolling resistance, and you'd still have a car that would pull the same G-Lat/Long as a conventional "sportscar" but would be fun to drive, do 50mpg on a run. Considering how many GolF Tdi's, 320d's, and Audi A1/A3 Tdi's you see, even if you captured 5% of the market you'd shift 10k pa cars!. So, it'll take you 3 years to get that program to Production, bets start right now!!!
(for everyone else, i suggest we all meet back here in say, oh, April 2015, and lets see if there's a market for "ecosports cars" yet........ ;-)
Take an exige tub, do a low capacity (lets say 1.4 4 cyl) high boost engine (180bhp and 220Nm) optimise the drag, and rolling resistance, and you'd still have a car that would pull the same G-Lat/Long as a conventional "sportscar" but would be fun to drive, do 50mpg on a run. Considering how many GolF Tdi's, 320d's, and Audi A1/A3 Tdi's you see, even if you captured 5% of the market you'd shift 10k pa cars!. So, it'll take you 3 years to get that program to Production, bets start right now!!!
(for everyone else, i suggest we all meet back here in say, oh, April 2015, and lets see if there's a market for "ecosports cars" yet........ ;-)
Chris Harris is awesome. He is everything that most motor media journalists aren't - passionate about cars ! and able to communicate it in a way which comes across as knowledgeable without being pretentious. He is one of the few people I can watch talking about cars without becoming bored - and he can drive !
Will somebody please give this guy his own TV show now and let him show Top Gear how it should be done!
Will somebody please give this guy his own TV show now and let him show Top Gear how it should be done!
Dave Hedgehog said:
looks so much better in white 
Looks almost Japanese in white, and I agree it's a much more flattering colour than that green Chris drove it in. It does sound poor, the pops and bangs are nice in sport mode but the engine sounds harsh and doesn't have a great note, but on the other hand, it has a good whack of power to match it, and the supercharger sounds amusing. I can see the driver aids splitting opinion, and while I think there should be a "fully off" mode, assuming there is not one already, it would be nice to think you could jump in and go for a fairly spirited drive without having to wear your Walter Rohrl trousers.
While I agree a car like this is about much more than looks, it doesn't look as well proportioned as the old Exige.
ArosaMike said:
I think it's easy for those of us who develop the systems to get overly focused on certain things. 99% of customers don't really have much of an opinion on the systems unless they appear overly intrusive.
Personally, if I'm tuning any mode, be it race, normal or any kind of winter or 'safe' mode, I like good, subtle control that you'd struggle to identify as being an intervention. Generally these atributes can be carried accross between different modes with varying amounts of slip and varying amounts of 'looseness'.
Perhaps what I'm getting at is that it's all too easy for me to focus on areas that I see as an issue, and it's quite hard to come at it from a blind point of view.
Overall, I'm inclined to believe the DSC is pretty good. The understeer control in the Evora I drove last month was actually really quite nicely judged. I do wish that Lotus hadn't chirped on about all this amazing 'new' technology though when it's actually been around for half a decade!
Personally, if I'm tuning any mode, be it race, normal or any kind of winter or 'safe' mode, I like good, subtle control that you'd struggle to identify as being an intervention. Generally these atributes can be carried accross between different modes with varying amounts of slip and varying amounts of 'looseness'.
Perhaps what I'm getting at is that it's all too easy for me to focus on areas that I see as an issue, and it's quite hard to come at it from a blind point of view.
Overall, I'm inclined to believe the DSC is pretty good. The understeer control in the Evora I drove last month was actually really quite nicely judged. I do wish that Lotus hadn't chirped on about all this amazing 'new' technology though when it's actually been around for half a decade!
In all seriousness, it's possible the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If you start over-analysing a component in isolation it does tend to be quite irrelevant when considering the whole driving experience.
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