RE: Chris Harris video: Lotus Exige S
Discussion
Isn't it more likely that the gt3rs weighs more than 1376kg? Also it has plastic rear window, lotus uses heavy glass, so a better comparison would've to normal gt3. After all lotus have left some weight saving to be done by an cup or rs equivalent version of the exige to come. Plastic windows, carbon body parts and lighter wheels could easily shed another 50kg and that would be nearer a like for like comparison to the Porsche.
Despite what the "marketiers" would have you believe, the Lotus uses the body construction that it does for one reason, and one reasononly: COST!
If you only are making a (relative) handful of cars (or more importantly, your business case is only for a handful of cars) then the press tooling for a monocoque, costing upwards of £10M, sinks your project before it even starts.
The Gt3 leverages the rest of the 911 volume sales to get a lightweight, stiff and good NVH platform from the off.
The Exige (et-al) leverage the fact that you can easily and cheaply change the basic dimensions of your hollow section extrusions to make different sized platforms. It's not the absolute lightest way of building a car, but if it enables you to build it at all it's a price you have to pay.
If you only are making a (relative) handful of cars (or more importantly, your business case is only for a handful of cars) then the press tooling for a monocoque, costing upwards of £10M, sinks your project before it even starts.
The Gt3 leverages the rest of the 911 volume sales to get a lightweight, stiff and good NVH platform from the off.
The Exige (et-al) leverage the fact that you can easily and cheaply change the basic dimensions of your hollow section extrusions to make different sized platforms. It's not the absolute lightest way of building a car, but if it enables you to build it at all it's a price you have to pay.
You could argue the same about any car that uses steel anywhere in its construction. I can't think of anything that steel is the best material for.
If money (and manufacture time) was no object, we'd probably be building our cars from woven carbon nanotubes. Every car is a cost compromise.
If money (and manufacture time) was no object, we'd probably be building our cars from woven carbon nanotubes. Every car is a cost compromise.
NGK210 said:
The more I read and view, the more I'm liking the Exige S.
But... I'm surprised by the Exige's weight compared to a GT3 4.0 RS: the former is only 200kg lighter than the latter. Huh??
The Exige is smaller than the GT3.
The Exige's monocoque/tub is made from aluminium and its body panels are GRP; the GT3 is, for the most part, made of steel.
The Exige doesn't have an LSD; the GT3 does.
The Exige's cabin architecture/structure is very minimalist, it has no carpets or any (visible) sound-proofing material, its door cards are 'basic' and don't seem to contain any speakers.
So, if the Exige's cabin was equipped, trimmed/carpeted and sound-proofed to same level as the GT3's, it'd probably add at least 40kg to the Exige's weight, right? And an LSD would add, say, 10kg?
So, in 'reality', the Exige is only 150kg lighter. And it's smaller than the GT3 and made from GRP and aluminium. Huh??
You don't think 150-200kg is a lot? When companys are deliberately looking at saving 10s of grams on sun visors and the like? The 997 GT3 is approx 100kg lighter than the basic C2 yet has significant differences, but you expect atleast twice as much savings from the Exige to GT3/RS etc..But... I'm surprised by the Exige's weight compared to a GT3 4.0 RS: the former is only 200kg lighter than the latter. Huh??
The Exige is smaller than the GT3.
The Exige's monocoque/tub is made from aluminium and its body panels are GRP; the GT3 is, for the most part, made of steel.
The Exige doesn't have an LSD; the GT3 does.
The Exige's cabin architecture/structure is very minimalist, it has no carpets or any (visible) sound-proofing material, its door cards are 'basic' and don't seem to contain any speakers.
So, if the Exige's cabin was equipped, trimmed/carpeted and sound-proofed to same level as the GT3's, it'd probably add at least 40kg to the Exige's weight, right? And an LSD would add, say, 10kg?
So, in 'reality', the Exige is only 150kg lighter. And it's smaller than the GT3 and made from GRP and aluminium. Huh??
Don't get me wrong, I think the GT3 is a good buy.. but the Exige S looks like a great replacement for the Noble M12 and its derivatives at a lesser price.
BOBBY G said:
They are catering for all needs and abilities I think. Remember you can drive to the track and then switch all the gubbins off if you so desire.
My elise traction control saved my bacon a couple of times on road, I can see the appeal of this.
Any trackday I have been on sees most of the lotus brigade cabin up in wet conditions, and it's all scoobs and evos out playing, maybe this will change that.
Bob
Well, lotus on track in january at stowe in the rain, lotus S1 and mr2 were out playing... Marshalls were enjoying controled drift of honda powered elise S1...My elise traction control saved my bacon a couple of times on road, I can see the appeal of this.
Any trackday I have been on sees most of the lotus brigade cabin up in wet conditions, and it's all scoobs and evos out playing, maybe this will change that.
Bob
Having been free with the criticism of Chris Harris in the past it's only right that I offer some praise when it's due.
This video proves that his passion for cars does extend beyond the porsche brand.
It's slightly disturbing the amount of influence he appears to have over ph'ers so I find it acutely painful to see the relentless promotion of porsche products at the expense of the, in my opinion, enormously talented but in most cases struggling british car makers. Lord knows porsche doesn't need anyone's help whereas with Lotus flapping for it's life like a fish on the dock could really do with a little encouragement.
So hopefully the many that hang off every word that CH utters will at least perhaps consider that he'd never praise a Lotus where it wasn't deserving of it and maybe just go and try one while they still can.
Terrific video Chris. Perhaps now you can see how people love to knock the Lotus brand (and it is mainly porsche fans for some peculiar reason) and how distasteful that can be. It's also entirely ignorant. The Lotus badge may not have the prestige they crave so much but the genius at work up at Hethel is undeniable. Another thing your video proves.
This video proves that his passion for cars does extend beyond the porsche brand.
It's slightly disturbing the amount of influence he appears to have over ph'ers so I find it acutely painful to see the relentless promotion of porsche products at the expense of the, in my opinion, enormously talented but in most cases struggling british car makers. Lord knows porsche doesn't need anyone's help whereas with Lotus flapping for it's life like a fish on the dock could really do with a little encouragement.
So hopefully the many that hang off every word that CH utters will at least perhaps consider that he'd never praise a Lotus where it wasn't deserving of it and maybe just go and try one while they still can.
Terrific video Chris. Perhaps now you can see how people love to knock the Lotus brand (and it is mainly porsche fans for some peculiar reason) and how distasteful that can be. It's also entirely ignorant. The Lotus badge may not have the prestige they crave so much but the genius at work up at Hethel is undeniable. Another thing your video proves.
A reviewers duty is to the readers. Just because a company is a plucky British David against a Teutonic Goliath isn't a reason to get readers to spend money on their products. You have to recommend where the money is best spent.
For my part I'm delighted to see Lotus taking the fight to Porsche. I think this Exige looks wonderful, I was re-reading the EVO Ferrari F12 preview today and thinking "all told I'd rather have the Exige V6".
But it's down to a manufacturer to build the products to influence the journalist and not about taking sides.
Simon
For my part I'm delighted to see Lotus taking the fight to Porsche. I think this Exige looks wonderful, I was re-reading the EVO Ferrari F12 preview today and thinking "all told I'd rather have the Exige V6".
But it's down to a manufacturer to build the products to influence the journalist and not about taking sides.
Simon
Well done lotus and as always, great work from CH.
Funnily enough I ended up by chance catching an old Topgear on Dave today, it was one where the three plonkers drove English sports cars and went to the TVR factory.
I'd hate to see them doing another one of those going around the Lotus factory, so I really hope this and the other cars in the pipeline work.
If you're listening Lotus, what would get my money would be a locking rear diff and an roll cage option, same as GT3.
If you're going for the track day market, these are the options you should be offering.
Funnily enough I ended up by chance catching an old Topgear on Dave today, it was one where the three plonkers drove English sports cars and went to the TVR factory.
I'd hate to see them doing another one of those going around the Lotus factory, so I really hope this and the other cars in the pipeline work.
If you're listening Lotus, what would get my money would be a locking rear diff and an roll cage option, same as GT3.
If you're going for the track day market, these are the options you should be offering.
handbraketurn said:
Well done lotus and as always, great work from CH.
Funnily enough I ended up by chance catching an old Topgear on Dave today, it was one where the three plonkers drove English sports cars and went to the TVR factory.
I'd hate to see them doing another one of those going around the Lotus factory, so I really hope this and the other cars in the pipeline work.
If you're listening Lotus, what would get my money would be a locking rear diff and an roll cage option, same as GT3.
If you're going for the track day market, these are the options you should be offering.
You could get both for the last Exige so it's highly likely you'll be able to get both for this one before long, plus lots of aftermarket options too no doubt.Funnily enough I ended up by chance catching an old Topgear on Dave today, it was one where the three plonkers drove English sports cars and went to the TVR factory.
I'd hate to see them doing another one of those going around the Lotus factory, so I really hope this and the other cars in the pipeline work.
If you're listening Lotus, what would get my money would be a locking rear diff and an roll cage option, same as GT3.
If you're going for the track day market, these are the options you should be offering.
Besides all that wouldn't you rather have pure, uncorrupted steering? Lotus engineers have obsessed over getting the steering 'just so' and it's a huge part of what makes the car great and of what makes it a Lotus. Unless after driving it I honestly felt with DPM and all that it needed a diff, I'd prefer to go with ultimate steering feel of the two.
simonrockman said:
A reviewers duty is to the readers. Just because a company is a plucky British David against a Teutonic Goliath isn't a reason to get readers to spend money on their products. You have to recommend where the money is best spent.
For my part I'm delighted to see Lotus taking the fight to Porsche. I think this Exige looks wonderful, I was re-reading the EVO Ferrari F12 preview today and thinking "all told I'd rather have the Exige V6".
But it's down to a manufacturer to build the products to influence the journalist and not about taking sides.
Simon
This is all very well if you really believe there's such a thing as objective car journalism. I absolutely do not. They have their personal favourites just like anyone else. Besides, I totally disagree that its a journalist's job to tell us where to spend our money, that's going a step too far. It's my money, what matters most is what I think of the car, not what some spotty car nerd thinks. They are not representative of the people who buy the cars. The test results have been rigged for years too with Ferrari and the like cheating. I discovered this to my cost when I bought a 355, the darling of the motoring press at the time and also a car which posted searing test figures. It was a total crock. Pathetically slow (for the money) and generally hopeless in every way (for the money). I've since decided to put more faith in my own ability to evaluate a car.For my part I'm delighted to see Lotus taking the fight to Porsche. I think this Exige looks wonderful, I was re-reading the EVO Ferrari F12 preview today and thinking "all told I'd rather have the Exige V6".
But it's down to a manufacturer to build the products to influence the journalist and not about taking sides.
Simon
The Pits said:
This is all very well if you really believe there's such a thing as objective car journalism. I absolutely do not. They have their personal favourites just like anyone else. Besides, I totally disagree that its a journalist's job to tell us where to spend our money, that's going a step too far. It's my money, what matters most is what I think of the car, not what some spotty car nerd thinks. They are not representative of the people who buy the cars. The test results have been rigged for years too with Ferrari and the like cheating. I discovered this to my cost when I bought a 355, the darling of the motoring press at the time and also a car which posted searing test figures. It was a total crock. Pathetically slow (for the money) and generally hopeless in every way (for the money). I've since decided to put more faith in my own ability to evaluate a car.
I am probably a harsher critic of my own trade than most, but with that level of cynicism it must be hard to summon the apathy to breathe each morning.Of course what matters most is the person spending the cash. But to completely disregard and, worse still, discredit a trade that has many talented, enlightened people working within it is as ludicrous as it is unfair.
Objectivity is by definition impossible in human beings. I appreciate that there are still journalists who do their level best to remain objective but personal preference always creeps in, quite understandably. What is crucial is that readers understand that, well informed as many are, it is ultimately a subjective opinion. That's why I don't believe it's the remit of any car journalist to tell anyone what they should buy. Journalists have access to back to back comparisons that few ordinary punters have and it's interesting to make the comparison but ultimately artificial. Small nuances are amplified into major differences.
I would love to see car magazines do away with... the winner is... Car of the Year at associated nonsense and especially anything to do with anything that suggests how other people should spend their hard earned money. What is of interest to me is the reporting of the differences between cars, what different configurations allow you to do and not do. As for which is better for you is really not of interest and can be very misleading.
One of the reasons I thought your video was so good because it was very informative about what the car is like to drive, what the DSP does and how it works, what that means in practice, the things you liked versus the things you didn't like and very little in the way of it's better than car x but not as good as car y.
I would love to see car magazines do away with... the winner is... Car of the Year at associated nonsense and especially anything to do with anything that suggests how other people should spend their hard earned money. What is of interest to me is the reporting of the differences between cars, what different configurations allow you to do and not do. As for which is better for you is really not of interest and can be very misleading.
One of the reasons I thought your video was so good because it was very informative about what the car is like to drive, what the DSP does and how it works, what that means in practice, the things you liked versus the things you didn't like and very little in the way of it's better than car x but not as good as car y.
Edited by The Pits on Monday 30th April 14:47
I'm quite capable of reading a group test and thinking, "I know why they chose that winner, but I'd prioritise other things". As I think steering feel is very important I hate the Fiat 500, which generally gets excellent reviews. I've not driven either a 991 or an Evora, but I suspect I would prefer the Lotus.
Of course you have to modify what you read to suit your tastes but that's done by reading lots of reviews and finding people whose views align with your own. I tend to like the kind of things John Simister does so will give more credence to his reviews. I'm not saying he is right, everyone has a bias and his just aligns with mine. Although he does like the Fiat 500 so even that has to be thought about.
Simon
Of course you have to modify what you read to suit your tastes but that's done by reading lots of reviews and finding people whose views align with your own. I tend to like the kind of things John Simister does so will give more credence to his reviews. I'm not saying he is right, everyone has a bias and his just aligns with mine. Although he does like the Fiat 500 so even that has to be thought about.
Simon
I think there is atrocious mis information from car magazines that does not square at all with my personal experience. Again to return to my dismal Ferrari 355 experience, yes I was enamoured by the brand by my own free will but this was fuelled by the myth perpetuated by car magazines in order to sell car magazines. Any loyalty to the readers comes second to that. I ordered the 355 without a stereo and with £5k worth of carbon bucket 'sports seats' with alcantara inserts - why? Because I honestly thought, and was led to believe, that it would make a good track car. How hilarious now. Not even Ferrari refer to their road cars as track cars in any way. Not even the Enzo. Internally, they are refered to as 'super gt's', which is of course much more accurate. The only Ferraris intended for track use carry the FXX badge. The rest are dedicated road cars. So there's me struggling to keep up with a Elises and Mitsubishi Evos wondering how something with so much race pedigree could be so hopeless. Then I drove a Caterham 7 on the track and my perception was changed forever, within a single lap.
This myth is still being perpetuated to this day. There are people out there today who think the F430 Scuderia is a decent track car. It isn't. Great, exciting, 'race inspired' road car yes. Good track car, no. Porsche GT3s are not meaningfully faster than a Carrera 2 on a track yet they are constantly promoted as the best road/track car. They are all equally slow from behind the wheel of a Caterham. So much is made of a small difference as to my point previously.
Yet if you look at laptimes set by magazines the GT3s set much closer times to more natural track cars like 7s and Lotus 211's and the like. Can it only be because you have to be a much better driver than your average track day driver to get a decent time out of a GT3? If so, shouldn't that be mentioned before recommending that your readers part with £100k+ for one? Is the GT3 really so great if only people who drive for a living can get a decent time out of them? I also see more GT3s in the barriers on track days than any other car, yet we're told repeatedly, ad nauseam how 'rewarding' they are to drive once you've mastered 'the challenge'. Doesn't look so rewarding behind a tow truck. And how many owners ever actually master that challenge? Is this really the car that magazines should be recommending I buy for track days?
There's a big difference between saying 'this is the car I liked best' and 'this is the car you should buy'. It's a line I don't think journalists should cross because they don't know anything about 'you' nor what's right and wrong for you.
This myth is still being perpetuated to this day. There are people out there today who think the F430 Scuderia is a decent track car. It isn't. Great, exciting, 'race inspired' road car yes. Good track car, no. Porsche GT3s are not meaningfully faster than a Carrera 2 on a track yet they are constantly promoted as the best road/track car. They are all equally slow from behind the wheel of a Caterham. So much is made of a small difference as to my point previously.
Yet if you look at laptimes set by magazines the GT3s set much closer times to more natural track cars like 7s and Lotus 211's and the like. Can it only be because you have to be a much better driver than your average track day driver to get a decent time out of a GT3? If so, shouldn't that be mentioned before recommending that your readers part with £100k+ for one? Is the GT3 really so great if only people who drive for a living can get a decent time out of them? I also see more GT3s in the barriers on track days than any other car, yet we're told repeatedly, ad nauseam how 'rewarding' they are to drive once you've mastered 'the challenge'. Doesn't look so rewarding behind a tow truck. And how many owners ever actually master that challenge? Is this really the car that magazines should be recommending I buy for track days?
There's a big difference between saying 'this is the car I liked best' and 'this is the car you should buy'. It's a line I don't think journalists should cross because they don't know anything about 'you' nor what's right and wrong for you.
Edited by The Pits on Tuesday 1st May 10:55
The Pits said:
I think there is atrocious mis information from car magazines that does not square at all with my personal experience. Again to return to my dismal Ferrari 355 experience, yes I was enamoured by the brand by my own free will but this was fuelled by the myth perpetuated by car magazines in order to sell car magazines. Any loyalty to the readers comes second to that. I ordered the 355 without a stereo and with £5k worth of carbon bucket 'sports seats' with alcantara inserts - why? Because I honestly thought, and was led to believe, that it would make a good track car. How hilarious now. Not even Ferrari refer to their road cars as track cars in any way. Not even the Enzo. Internally, they are refered to as 'super gt's', which is of course much more accurate. The only Ferraris intended for track use carry the FXX badge. The rest are dedicated road cars. So there's me struggling to keep up with a Elises and Mitsubishi Evos wondering how something with so much race pedigree could be so hopeless. Then I drove a Caterham 7 on the track and my perception was changed forever, within a single lap.
This myth is still being perpetuated to this day. There are people out there today who think the F430 Scuderia is a decent track car. It isn't. Great, exciting, 'race inspired' road car yes. Good track car, no. Porsche GT3s are not meaningfully faster than a Carrera 2 on a track yet they are constantly promoted as the best road/track car. They are all equally slow from behind the wheel of a Caterham. So much is made of a small difference as to my point previously.
Yet if you look at laptimes set by magazines the GT3s set much closer times to more natural track cars like 7s and Lotus 211's and the like. Can it only be because you have to be a much better driver than your average track day driver to get a decent time out of a GT3? If so, shouldn't that be mentioned before recommending that your readers part with £100k+ for one? Is the GT3 really so great if only people who drive for a living can get a decent time out of them? I also see more GT3s in the barriers on track days than any other car, yet we're told repeatedly, ad nauseam how 'rewarding' they are to drive once you've mastered 'the challenge'. Doesn't look so rewarding behind a tow truck. And how many owners ever actually master that challenge? Is this really the car that magazines should be recommending I buy for track days?
There's a big difference between saying 'this is the car I liked best' and 'this is the car you should buy'. It's a line I don't think journalists should cross because they don't know anything about 'you' nor what's right and wrong for you.
If you bought a car just by reading magazines, perhaps you were a little naive, not?This myth is still being perpetuated to this day. There are people out there today who think the F430 Scuderia is a decent track car. It isn't. Great, exciting, 'race inspired' road car yes. Good track car, no. Porsche GT3s are not meaningfully faster than a Carrera 2 on a track yet they are constantly promoted as the best road/track car. They are all equally slow from behind the wheel of a Caterham. So much is made of a small difference as to my point previously.
Yet if you look at laptimes set by magazines the GT3s set much closer times to more natural track cars like 7s and Lotus 211's and the like. Can it only be because you have to be a much better driver than your average track day driver to get a decent time out of a GT3? If so, shouldn't that be mentioned before recommending that your readers part with £100k+ for one? Is the GT3 really so great if only people who drive for a living can get a decent time out of them? I also see more GT3s in the barriers on track days than any other car, yet we're told repeatedly, ad nauseam how 'rewarding' they are to drive once you've mastered 'the challenge'. Doesn't look so rewarding behind a tow truck. And how many owners ever actually master that challenge? Is this really the car that magazines should be recommending I buy for track days?
There's a big difference between saying 'this is the car I liked best' and 'this is the car you should buy'. It's a line I don't think journalists should cross because they don't know anything about 'you' nor what's right and wrong for you.
Edited by The Pits on Tuesday 1st May 10:55
YOU have to know what you want and reviews (not one) can help you to consider one or another car. Then it is up to you.
You have to know how to read opinions.
From my side I am more then happy reviews exist, especially this one. After some, rather, negative experience with Lotus (technical issues) I read the different reviews (are looked at them).
I just can confirm I agree with them, my personal testdrive confirmed the opinions made by CH and others. I am happy these guys are there.
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