RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Aston Martin V12 Vantage
Discussion
Well, I can't agree, I am absolutely smitten with this car.
I have struggled for ages to find a keeper of a performance car to fit my needs. In the past I've had cars that drove fantastically but lacked style and cars with style that were a bit soft. I even got to the point where I questioned the whole modern sports car thing and looked at F355s, e-types and such. Interestingly, the whole Porsche thing never really appealed.
What surprises me is the comments on the tyres, I've run Corsa tyres, but ended up on cut slicks, you have to appreciate what they are designed to do and drive accordingly. For me the benefits of the outstanding dry grip by far outweigh the cold/wet issues. If I could specify cut slicks on this car as a purchase option I would be ticking that box.
As for the grills on the bonnet, I guess they’re like Cindy Crawford’s beauty spot. Where some would call it a mole, I acknowledge the presence, it may be better without, but it doesn’t diminish the desire...
I have struggled for ages to find a keeper of a performance car to fit my needs. In the past I've had cars that drove fantastically but lacked style and cars with style that were a bit soft. I even got to the point where I questioned the whole modern sports car thing and looked at F355s, e-types and such. Interestingly, the whole Porsche thing never really appealed.
What surprises me is the comments on the tyres, I've run Corsa tyres, but ended up on cut slicks, you have to appreciate what they are designed to do and drive accordingly. For me the benefits of the outstanding dry grip by far outweigh the cold/wet issues. If I could specify cut slicks on this car as a purchase option I would be ticking that box.
As for the grills on the bonnet, I guess they’re like Cindy Crawford’s beauty spot. Where some would call it a mole, I acknowledge the presence, it may be better without, but it doesn’t diminish the desire...
Zod said:
mikey k said:
Ftumpch said:
I'm not really convinced by this car. There's just something that doesn't quite add up.
On paper it makes the claim of being a hairy-chested Aston in the same mould as the Vanquish or Virage... and maybe if it looked a bit less girly then it could get away with the sort of antics experienced by the reviewer. But for a car that shares its styling with the V8 and DBS - ie so refined that it almost deserves the title of "hairdressers' car", or even comparisons with those (ahem) "girls" whom you're likely to meet in a dodgy Phuket nightclub - that kind of driving experience makes you want to run away commensurately quickly
I'd like to know how long it takes to get around the Nurburgring - that would probably be a good indicator of whether the writer knows what he's talking about or not. My guess is it would have trouble keeping up with a more "balanced" car like the V8, or even something much older, like a Ferrari 575.
He's just trolling, mikey.On paper it makes the claim of being a hairy-chested Aston in the same mould as the Vanquish or Virage... and maybe if it looked a bit less girly then it could get away with the sort of antics experienced by the reviewer. But for a car that shares its styling with the V8 and DBS - ie so refined that it almost deserves the title of "hairdressers' car", or even comparisons with those (ahem) "girls" whom you're likely to meet in a dodgy Phuket nightclub - that kind of driving experience makes you want to run away commensurately quickly
I'd like to know how long it takes to get around the Nurburgring - that would probably be a good indicator of whether the writer knows what he's talking about or not. My guess is it would have trouble keeping up with a more "balanced" car like the V8, or even something much older, like a Ferrari 575.
It doesn't share any styling with the DBS, that is the longer VH platform, it does have the same engine though
The V12V's are very nimble, the two that followed my V8VS through a torrential North Wales had no problems keeping up (same are & same day as the OP
)As others have said EPS off is not good and respect for the Corsa's in the cold/wet is a must
The Pits said:
As for Dan's intentionally controversial topic, I can't help but think he's doing owners a favour by helping to build up a reputation as Aston's 'Bad Boy' of the range.
In reality it's a beautifully balanced front-mid car with near perfect weight distribution (quite unlike those damnable, cantankerous beetles) with a smooth, linear, torque rich V12 and, praise be, slick shifting manual gearbox (by far the best cable shift I've encountered). I've never read a review before that suggested it was in any way 'a handful'. 510bhp is also not a ridiculous amount from a 5.9 litre engine and contrary to some things I've read the car is a long way short of 'uncontrollably fast'. If anything it could easily handle a bit more but I'll stop there for fear of jeapoardizing the 'bad boy' rep.
However the V12Vantage does come with one entirely pointless, unhelpful, fashionable feature - 'sport mode'. Up until now a long travel throttle has been desirable and an asset for a torquey car but Aston saw fit to give owners the option of reducing it to a half it's full travel. I know many like it but I much prefer the car with it switched off. It's much easier to be progressive with the power. With it pressed on it's also much easier to be clumsy and spin up the rears, doubly so in the wet. If Dan spun with the button off then it's a truly freak accident. And a 'sport' button is just such a feeble thing to call it. What sport are we about to partake in? The pressing of buttons for the gratification of the marketing department? It's nearly as irritating as 'race' mode in a road car. Are car buyers really so easily conned?
Anyone who prefers the V8 (Dan!) is not aware of the significance of having 12 cylinders. Even if it was the same performance, even if the handling was slightly worse (which it isn't) than the V8, anyone over 12 years old shouldn't be turning down the option to having the extra four cylinders. They really do make all the difference.
And for how much longer will a V12 with a manual box be available? It's one of motoring's greatest experiences and most glorious combinations (Miura, 250 GTO, 375 GTB, Daytona, 550 Maranello, Murcielago) but both Ferrari and Lambo have already decided to deny owners that option. Will the new DBS be available with a manual? Unlikely. So for that reason alone the V12 Vantage deserves recognition and a special place in our hearts.
I think most of that is well put, though I don't agree on your view of sport mode. I love it in my S, but I think for instance (from memory) mikey k does not. But as we have the choice, we can all be happy !In reality it's a beautifully balanced front-mid car with near perfect weight distribution (quite unlike those damnable, cantankerous beetles) with a smooth, linear, torque rich V12 and, praise be, slick shifting manual gearbox (by far the best cable shift I've encountered). I've never read a review before that suggested it was in any way 'a handful'. 510bhp is also not a ridiculous amount from a 5.9 litre engine and contrary to some things I've read the car is a long way short of 'uncontrollably fast'. If anything it could easily handle a bit more but I'll stop there for fear of jeapoardizing the 'bad boy' rep.
However the V12Vantage does come with one entirely pointless, unhelpful, fashionable feature - 'sport mode'. Up until now a long travel throttle has been desirable and an asset for a torquey car but Aston saw fit to give owners the option of reducing it to a half it's full travel. I know many like it but I much prefer the car with it switched off. It's much easier to be progressive with the power. With it pressed on it's also much easier to be clumsy and spin up the rears, doubly so in the wet. If Dan spun with the button off then it's a truly freak accident. And a 'sport' button is just such a feeble thing to call it. What sport are we about to partake in? The pressing of buttons for the gratification of the marketing department? It's nearly as irritating as 'race' mode in a road car. Are car buyers really so easily conned?
Anyone who prefers the V8 (Dan!) is not aware of the significance of having 12 cylinders. Even if it was the same performance, even if the handling was slightly worse (which it isn't) than the V8, anyone over 12 years old shouldn't be turning down the option to having the extra four cylinders. They really do make all the difference.
And for how much longer will a V12 with a manual box be available? It's one of motoring's greatest experiences and most glorious combinations (Miura, 250 GTO, 375 GTB, Daytona, 550 Maranello, Murcielago) but both Ferrari and Lambo have already decided to deny owners that option. Will the new DBS be available with a manual? Unlikely. So for that reason alone the V12 Vantage deserves recognition and a special place in our hearts.
I did want to add to your points though. In my mind, there is no question that the very latest AM V8s are the slightly better balanced car. But I still want a V12 and if they do a roadster, will get one. The V8 will have a successor that's marginally better. The V12 will never be repeated. The V12 will have to have a very good driver to get it round a track quicker than a V8. Some (but definitely not all) of the criticisms of the V12 are actually valid points - it's by no means perfect. But that's it's appeal - it has character and I don't believe there will be another large engined manual sportscar ever (Pagani 760 apart !)
You don't buy any Aston Martin to win a game of top trumps and in that respect a V12V is no different. But once you are in a position to spend 100k+ on a car, I think your view often changes from when it was just a dream that you might be in a position to buy such a car. Suddenly, being 1 second faster round the top gear test track is actually quite unimportant. The V12V is definitely not for everyone and that's another part of it's appeal. I think it will become a true legend though.....
Ftumpch said:
I'm not trolling Zod - I really think it's a strange mix of disparate character traits, and quite an interesting illustration of the dilemma facing sportscar makers in the days when technology makes it possible to build road cars that are far too powerful for their own good. It's got to be a complete package in order to work.
Wasn't it Rowan Atkinson who pointed out that Ferrari would never put their largest engine in their smallest car?At the time I thought - that's just because they're a marketing driven bunch of accountants trying to squeeze every penny from their precious brand.
Now I think the same thing.
But I must concede that sometimes it's better not to get what you ask for - maybe there's a logic behind the branding decisions that is more timeless than we realise.
mikey k said:
I have no issue with the Sport button in my S, having pulled fuse 15 I don't use it much any more though
Does it not do like the DB9s sport button and remove the automatic up shifts if you hit the red line, letting you bounce it off the rev limiter if you so wish? And something about throttle response?Ftumpch said:
I'm not trolling Zod - I really think it's a strange mix of disparate character traits, and quite an interesting illustration of the dilemma facing sportscar makers in the days when technology makes it possible to build road cars that are far too powerful for their own good. It's got to be a complete package in order to work.
The package works perfectly. It's just less forgiving than some other modern cars. It's far less likely to spit you off the road backwards than a 996 GT2.George H said:
Does it not do like the DB9s sport button and remove the automatic up shifts if you hit the red line, letting you bounce it off the rev limiter if you so wish? And something about throttle response?
ASM2 (and ASM1) does that sport button leaves the valves open and tightens the throtle mapPaxto said:
Same engine, same noise, better looking, more space......although this one is a convertible so therefore rubbish to drive........not.
For me, it's less good-looking, has hardly any more space (the boot is smaller and the space behind the front seats is only marginally bigger - I lived with a DB9, so I'm well qualified to judge). The principal issue for me is that the DBS is simply less fun to drive.
Having changed up from the V8 to the V12 this is a different car and not just a faster Vantage. I'm an average driver so perhaps have a bit more respect for the power - although I agree it's a car that makes you think before putting your foot down.
Although I can use almost all of the power of my 1979 308 accelerating onto the motorway the V12 just feels more involving even at 7/10ths.
I've driven in the wet (very wet) at sensible speeds and it is rock solid - a bit skippy perhaps on motorways like many cars with very wide wheels though.
I drove in the cold (2 deg) and wet last winter on the CorsaZero's and almost stopped and parked up until Spring it was so hard to control - so I'm changing for winter (SottoZero) tyres this week.
I also have a darker colour so the vents don't stick out as much as the car pictured.
All in all I still love it.
Although I can use almost all of the power of my 1979 308 accelerating onto the motorway the V12 just feels more involving even at 7/10ths.
I've driven in the wet (very wet) at sensible speeds and it is rock solid - a bit skippy perhaps on motorways like many cars with very wide wheels though.
I drove in the cold (2 deg) and wet last winter on the CorsaZero's and almost stopped and parked up until Spring it was so hard to control - so I'm changing for winter (SottoZero) tyres this week.
I also have a darker colour so the vents don't stick out as much as the car pictured.
All in all I still love it.
Resurrection!
I've done a lot of fast driving in a variety of weather conditions on all sorts of North Yorkshire roads, day and night in the car in the 18 months since this article came out and I haven't even had any moments. I'm a long way from being a driving god, but the car communicates grip levels very clearly through the buttocks. Driving the same roads in October that I last drove in August, grip levels in corners, particularly with odd inclines, bumps or cambers were noticeably reduced, so my cornering speeds were lower.
Coming off the road in the car will have been due to a mistake by the driver. We can all make mistakes, but don't blame the car.
My SottoZeros will go on within a couple of weeks. Even in London it was 5 degrees on hte drive to work yesterday.
I've done a lot of fast driving in a variety of weather conditions on all sorts of North Yorkshire roads, day and night in the car in the 18 months since this article came out and I haven't even had any moments. I'm a long way from being a driving god, but the car communicates grip levels very clearly through the buttocks. Driving the same roads in October that I last drove in August, grip levels in corners, particularly with odd inclines, bumps or cambers were noticeably reduced, so my cornering speeds were lower.
Coming off the road in the car will have been due to a mistake by the driver. We can all make mistakes, but don't blame the car.
My SottoZeros will go on within a couple of weeks. Even in London it was 5 degrees on hte drive to work yesterday.
The new v12v one maybe a lot better if I believe autocar and other mags that have compared them, even as a track car they seem to hold there own - p52 of 26 sept autocar - against the likes of the new gt3.
However a recent spirited dirve in the v12v version brought back all the memories of understeer and not being hooked up in the wet. Absolutely stunning in dark grey with the carbon trinkets and a real hoon on power slides etc.
I'm afraid the only British beef I will be tasting is the Ultima, since the German pork is just too good in all weathers and too practical. I will be four up with 650litres of surf gear and women's s
te in boot/roofbox heading towards the southwest of France next year. The best part is the roofbox comes off, and OH and I can hoon it in the Pyrenees 
while the teenagers surf. Hands up all those v12v drivers that would even let their wives drive their v12v let alone go on two weeks holiday with one.
(Really I'm just jealous that I didn't buy one and use the golf instead for holidays)
However a recent spirited dirve in the v12v version brought back all the memories of understeer and not being hooked up in the wet. Absolutely stunning in dark grey with the carbon trinkets and a real hoon on power slides etc.
I'm afraid the only British beef I will be tasting is the Ultima, since the German pork is just too good in all weathers and too practical. I will be four up with 650litres of surf gear and women's s
te in boot/roofbox heading towards the southwest of France next year. The best part is the roofbox comes off, and OH and I can hoon it in the Pyrenees while the teenagers surf. Hands up all those v12v drivers that would even let their wives drive their v12v let alone go on two weeks holiday with one. (Really I'm just jealous that I didn't buy one and use the golf instead for holidays
)It will understeer on the Corsas if they are not up to temperature. They are enormously sensitive to temperature. Then you have to be slower into the corners. On a hot summers day, they grip so hard you can hear the tread unsticking form the tarmac. Then you cna carry a lot more speed into a corner.
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