RE: Diesel myths debunked

RE: Diesel myths debunked

Friday 27th April 2012

Diesel myths debunked

How do you turn a nation of gas guzzlers into derv lovers? Chevrolet is leading the charge



In the land of the V8 delivery van, diesel is still a dirty word. But GM in the States is trying to shift the average American's perceptions of diesel as a rough, rattly evil peddled by European socialists as it gears up to sell its first mainstream diesel in the form of the Cruze 2.0-litre.

Will this turn them onto diesels?
Will this turn them onto diesels?
The 'myths' Chevy have to debunk are listed in this promotional picture, but it seems some Americans are already being won over as fuel prices increase.

Sales of diesel cars rose 35 per cent in the first quarter of 2012 according to figures from the Diesel Technology Forum and last year they were up 27 per cent.

Okay, they're not about to usurp petrol any time soon in the way they (just about) have here. Diesels account for three per cent of US sales (equivalent to about 180,000 cars a year) compared to a sliver over half of all cars sold in the UK last year.

But more makers selling in the US are joining the likes of VW, who started making the Passat TDI in Tennessee last year. Porsche has announced it's selling the Cayenne diesel and Mercedes is following with the 350 Bluetec version of its S-Class. Even Jeep has said it will launch a diesel Grand Cherokee.

Chevrolet owners unlikely to switch to derv
Chevrolet owners unlikely to switch to derv
But let's not carried away here. When Americans squeal about high gas prices, it's hard to feel any sympathy. The equivalent litre price for unleaded after all the sums (including converting their gallons to our gallons) is a measly 62p. At that price, quite frankly, diesel be damned.

 

Author
Discussion

Sivraj

Original Poster:

256 posts

190 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Only half of fuel stations in the US stock Diesel?

It sound like rolling out LPG over here.

RemyMartin

6,759 posts

204 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
The only way I'd have a diesel powered vehicle would be

a) It was a HGV and it was running at least 650bhp
b) An old locomotive

Other than that....never.

pilchardthecat

7,483 posts

178 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
The fuel might be a lot cheaper - but have you seen how far away from everything, everything else is?

EDLT

15,421 posts

205 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Those myths aren't debunked, diesels are louder, dirtier and rougher than petrol engines.

RichTBiscuit

430 posts

150 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
Those myths aren't debunked, diesels are louder, dirtier and rougher than petrol engines.
What he said.

Without taking running costs into account, I've not met one person (who knows about cars) who would buy a diesel over a petrol.

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
they forgot

1) oil burners have very narrow power bands, so you will be either sitting there with the loud pedal pressed waiting for something to happen, or flying towards the car in front of you
2) oil burners are as boring as watching grass grow

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
EDLT said:
Those myths aren't debunked, diesels are louder, dirtier and rougher than petrol engines.
Depends on how you look at it.

Relative to a decent petrol engine they are. However in absolute terms a decent modern diesel engine is relatively smooth, quiet and not at all dirty. Those 'Myths' are certainly no longer a reason not to buy a diesel for the bulk of the non petrolhead public.


pilchardthecat

7,483 posts

178 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
doogz said:
I can see this thread getting ugly soon.
....and on a Friday afternoon, too. It's almost as if they want it all to kick off, writing an article like that.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
RichTBiscuit said:
EDLT said:
Those myths aren't debunked, diesels are louder, dirtier and rougher than petrol engines.
What he said.

Without taking running costs into account, I've not met one person (who knows about cars) who would buy a diesel over a petrol.
I'd agree with that, with the exception of people who drive company cars/do a lot of miles.

However the number of people that I meet that know about cars compared to those who don't is small. While a lot of people like a nice car most are not really car people.

pilchardthecat

7,483 posts

178 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Where's Welshbeef and Vladimir when you need 'em?

Oi! Diesels are st! Shiiiiiiiit!!!

5...4....3....2...

sleep envy

62,260 posts

248 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
olly22n said:
RichTBiscuit said:
EDLT said:
Those myths aren't debunked, diesels are louder, dirtier and rougher than petrol engines.
What he said.

Without taking running costs into account, I've not met one person (who knows about cars) who would buy a diesel over a petrol.
yes

Why didn't they just say it will save you X amount of dollars. cost is the only reason for diesel.

(deltic excepted)
Not trying to be provocative but if given the choice between two cars and everything (cost, mpg, servicing, etc) was the same with the exception of what fuel they used I'd be hard pressed to pick between the two.

90-95% of my miles are now driven in London (I did buy my diesel when I was doing 25k+ PA) and to be honest the way it delivers the power does make it quite an easy way to drive through traffic.

blueg33

35,590 posts

223 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
they forgot

1) oil burners have very narrow power bands, so you will be either sitting there with the loud pedal pressed waiting for something to happen, or flying towards the car in front of you
2) oil burners are as boring as watching grass grow
You are incorrect - power band is irrelevant in terms of the waiting etc, its what gears are for. If you mean turbo lag, then that happens with petrol turbos too. For the record I have a 3.0tdi and a 3.0 petrol both the same age, the tdi is the faster of the 2 cars and this is especially noticeable when overtaking as normal driving revs has you right where max power is, that is not the case in the petrol, you have to increase the revs by quite a bit to get the max power. (both are auto's)

I wouldn't call this boring, tbh its very impressive


blueg33

35,590 posts

223 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
doogz said:
And do they both have turbochargers? tongue out
tdi does, petrol doesn't, petrol gernerates more BHP and is in a lighter car)

frosted

3,549 posts

176 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
pilchardthecat said:
Where's Welshbeef and Vladimir when you need 'em?

Oi! Diesels are st! Shiiiiiiiit!!!

5...4....3....2...
It's ok , when you have a combined five figure salary then petrol prices may be irrelevant to some hehe

Otispunkmeyer

12,558 posts

154 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
they forgot

1) oil burners have very narrow power bands, so you will be either sitting there with the loud pedal pressed waiting for something to happen, or flying towards the car in front of you
2) oil burners are as boring as watching grass grow
Old diesel maybe.

New diesels are much less peaky and more linear. The latest 2.2 from Honda being an example... Theres a satisfying surge upon pedal burial but it doesn't blow it's load in one go, it's more gradual and is a gentler thrust for more of the rev range.

Don't know of people have noticed this but compression ratios for petrol and diesel have been converging. Mazdas new sky active engines both run 14.0:1. Means diesel combustion becomes, audiably, softer. Ie quieter and engine operation smoother.


Second point stands though. But it does so for equivalent petrols. Let's face it a normal golf or focus is dull what ever they decide to shove under the bonnet.

Motorrad

6,811 posts

186 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Mercedes has been selling diesel cars there for decades.

Diesels in the US are mostly the preserve of nutters, eccentrics and people who drive very large pick up trucks when it comes to private motorists.

Diesel costs significantly more than petrol which neatly offsets part of the MPG advantage. There were tax incentives that meant you could deduct a fair amount if you bought an 'effecient' automobile but I don't know a single person who did that.

Everyone I know there either drives a 6 or 8 cylinder, mostly automatics and other than the odd whine about the price of 'gas' doesn't give a flying fk about efficiency or mpg.

Apart from this tt I worked with who had a prius, but he was a vegan, a so-called socialist (who didn't seem to share any of his considerable wealth or time with the poor) and used his electric st mobile to drive 1/2 a mile to the shops instead of walking or cycling the hypocritical prick.

Edit to add: there is no reason whatsoever to own, buy or run a diesel over there IMO given a half decent salary.

Edited by Motorrad on Friday 27th April 14:26

StottyZr

6,860 posts

162 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Well we haven't had one of these for a while...

Throttle response, power bands, torque and gearing.. Oh power delivery. Thinking about how many times these words will be repeated in the next few pages makes me feel sick.

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
blueg33 said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
they forgot

1) oil burners have very narrow power bands, so you will be either sitting there with the loud pedal pressed waiting for something to happen, or flying towards the car in front of you
2) oil burners are as boring as watching grass grow
You are incorrect - power band is irrelevant in terms of the waiting etc, its what gears are for. If you mean turbo lag, then that happens with petrol turbos too. For the record I have a 3.0tdi and a 3.0 petrol both the same age, the tdi is the faster of the 2 cars and this is especially noticeable when overtaking as normal driving revs has you right where max power is, that is not the case in the petrol, you have to increase the revs by quite a bit to get the max power. (both are auto's)

I wouldn't call this boring, tbh its very impressive

what a pointless response

why not strap a shuttle SRB motor on the roof? what relevance does a race car that exploits favorable rules have to a road car?

i have just put 1000 miles on a 2011 V6 A6 TDi and it was bloody terrible. Lag as you described then an almighty woof of power between 2-3k then dead as a door knob to the red line, so bloody hit and miss, incredibly tedious to drive unless you just want a luxo barge for cruising in, then it was superb, i dont!



bodhi

10,333 posts

228 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
Ah the replacement for Godwin's Law - the Diesel Law. How many posts into a disesl thread does it take for someone to meantion "Audi" and "Le Mans"?


Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Friday 27th April 2012
quotequote all
doogz said:
Devil2575 said:
Depends on how you look at it.

Relative to a decent petrol engine they are. However in absolute terms a decent modern diesel engine is relatively smooth, quiet and not at all dirty. Those 'Myths' are certainly no longer a reason not to buy a diesel for the bulk of the non petrolhead public.
That's how most people look at it. That's what they're up against.
On this forum that's what they're up against. Petrol heads tend to wax lyrical about petrol engines, myself included. However in the UK once people realised that diesels were generally speaking smooth enough, quiet enough, clean enough and economical then the battle was won.

In the US, where people tend to cover much bigger milages on wide open freeways, diesel is a bit of a no brainer, there just hasn't been the imputus due to the low price of petrol. Get onto a motorway in a modern TD and drive at 70 mph and you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between that and a petrol, except when you fill up.

Given no cost constraints i'd go petrol every time, but in the real world I can't ignore the savings.