RE: Diesel myths debunked
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Seriously - I've been reading that the 'end is nigh' for diesels for 30 years now. Seriously.
CO2 emissions most definitely are not irrelevant, plus, diesel particulates fall quickly to ground whereas petrol particulates essentially remain airborne and are far more injurious to health. Then there is the issues with benzene in petrol.
Of course c02 emissions are irrelevant, it's a harmless natural gasCO2 emissions most definitely are not irrelevant, plus, diesel particulates fall quickly to ground whereas petrol particulates essentially remain airborne and are far more injurious to health. Then there is the issues with benzene in petrol.
Nobody would choose a diesel over a petrol if they weren't better on fuel. Nobody.
Modern diesels don't even do their manufacturer's MPG, they all just put new tech on them and lie a bit.
306 1.9D official: 45mpg actual: 45mpg
Fiesta 1.4tdci official: 67mpg actual 50mpg
It's all a con.
If the Americans don't want diesel cars then fair play to them. I'd rather not have a diesel car in the same way I'd rather not shop at Aldi, but I'm poor so I have too. It is just another example of how our country is s
t, and theirs isn't.
On a bit of a tangent, I remember a member commenting on how your never have to change gear in a diesel. Wtf are you on crack? A turbo diesel has absolutely no go below 2000rpm and is completely undrivable below 1000rpm. I've driven cars that were as happy to pull at 20mph/500rpm in 5th as they were at 60mph/2000rpm but all of them were petrol.
Modern diesels don't even do their manufacturer's MPG, they all just put new tech on them and lie a bit.
306 1.9D official: 45mpg actual: 45mpg
Fiesta 1.4tdci official: 67mpg actual 50mpg
It's all a con.
If the Americans don't want diesel cars then fair play to them. I'd rather not have a diesel car in the same way I'd rather not shop at Aldi, but I'm poor so I have too. It is just another example of how our country is s
t, and theirs isn't.On a bit of a tangent, I remember a member commenting on how your never have to change gear in a diesel. Wtf are you on crack? A turbo diesel has absolutely no go below 2000rpm and is completely undrivable below 1000rpm. I've driven cars that were as happy to pull at 20mph/500rpm in 5th as they were at 60mph/2000rpm but all of them were petrol.
sleep envy said:
Andy ap said:
Just took an A3 TDI s-line for a spin round the block to see if i can find any merit in Derv..... laaaaag. BOOST! and before you know it its all over.
That's more telling of your driving style than anything else to be honest. If you anticipate things slightly better and make sure you're in the right gear you won't have a problem.blueg33 said:
I wonder.......
A roads with traffic, 200bhp diesel vs 200bhp petrol which would get your overtakes done fastest and hence get you ahead of more of the slow moving cars.
I am pretty certain that from my experience (with auto's) it would be the diesel. In the diesel at 40mph starting your overtake, you will already be at or around max power, in the petrol you will not get to max power before you are well over the speed limit unless you trundle around in traffic in 3rd.
I'd just change down a few gears in the petrol. Imagine that!A roads with traffic, 200bhp diesel vs 200bhp petrol which would get your overtakes done fastest and hence get you ahead of more of the slow moving cars.
I am pretty certain that from my experience (with auto's) it would be the diesel. In the diesel at 40mph starting your overtake, you will already be at or around max power, in the petrol you will not get to max power before you are well over the speed limit unless you trundle around in traffic in 3rd.
Hellbound said:
Thanks for illustrating exactly what's wrong with London; Short to medium journeys made in high polluting vehicles in high density traffic by people who are utterly oblivious to the needs of the majority of inhabitants around them. Respiratory disease and respiratory failure are the biggest killers in cities like London. This is why the next mayor needs to really start doing something about cleaning up London's air, both with buses/taxis and private/business vehicles.
I liken it to being stuck in a lift with 10 people, one of whom thinks its perfectly fine to start puffing on a cigar. Sure you'll ignore it the first couple of times. But after a month of breathing in that poison, you're going to want to slap the thing off his face. Although he'd probably suggest you took the stairs or found another place to work. It's sad we still live in an era where such bizarre logic is still supported by an alarmingly large number of people.
Would be worse if he was driving a diesel though.I liken it to being stuck in a lift with 10 people, one of whom thinks its perfectly fine to start puffing on a cigar. Sure you'll ignore it the first couple of times. But after a month of breathing in that poison, you're going to want to slap the thing off his face. Although he'd probably suggest you took the stairs or found another place to work. It's sad we still live in an era where such bizarre logic is still supported by an alarmingly large number of people.
blueg33 said:
If its any help to the discussion, electric motors are even smoother than petrol engines, and run at high revs.
Shouldn't everyone be demanding that we go to those? They offer everything and more that the diesel haters say is good about petrol.
Yes, in most cars we should. Much better than diesel.Shouldn't everyone be demanding that we go to those? They offer everything and more that the diesel haters say is good about petrol.
wigsworld said:
Of course c02 emissions are irrelevant, it's a harmless natural gas
Are you a scientist?sealtt said:
sleep envy said:
Not trying to be provocative but if given the choice between two cars and everything (cost, mpg, servicing, etc) was the same with the exception of what fuel they used I'd be hard pressed to pick between the two.
90-95% of my miles are now driven in London (I did buy my diesel when I was doing 25k+ PA) and to be honest the way it delivers the power does make it quite an easy way to drive through traffic.
I live in central London & work in the city - i drive in to work - this is about 3.0 miles and most of that journey - which can be 20mins-40mins - is spent sitting in congestion. However, I am sitting in a SL with big 5.5l supercharged V8... so every time i pull away i get to hear that great noise and i can still occasionally enjoy gunning it through a tunnel or empty street.90-95% of my miles are now driven in London (I did buy my diesel when I was doing 25k+ PA) and to be honest the way it delivers the power does make it quite an easy way to drive through traffic.
I am only doing about 40 miles per week and so 5mpg or 20mpg doesn't really make any material difference in cash terms. However, I spend a decent amount of actual time in the car each week and a big V8 is massively superior & more enjoyable than just about any diesel I can think of.
So for me, living in a major & congested city makes buying a big engine gas guzzler a no brainer - only if you are doing big mileage on motorways is a diesel worth it.
Figures for the last car I was looking at, BMW 330i (E46) or BMW 330d (E46), assuming 8000 miles per year at £1.35/L for petrol and £1.45/L for diesel.
E46 330i urban - 22.1mpg - 1,646 litres/year - £2,222
E46 330d actual figures for dirty town driving in hilly Sheffield - 31.5mpg - 1,154 litres/year - £1,673
E46 330i extra-urban - 40.9mpg - 889 litres/year - £1,200
E46 330d actual figures for motorway driving - 45mpg - 808 litres/year - £1,171
(I'm not sure what the actual figures for a 330i are - I ended up buying the 330d. The general consensus seem to be that for petrol cars, the quoted figures are realistic. So I just copied them out of the owner's manual.)
Of course, the seller, and other buyers, will all have run similar calculations, and the diesel model will therefore command some kind of a premium. And you should also consider the possibility of some enormously expensive surprise diesel engine repair. Nevertheless, this demonstrates that running the figures will give you a more accurate answer than simply following rules of thumb, even though not everybody will necessarily reach the same conclusion.
(I've only ever visited America on holiday, so, regarding America, what can I say? But if they genuinely drive as much as they're often claimed to, presumably much of it must be on the motorways, otherwise there wouldn't be enough days in the year to fit it all in. And my calculations therefore suggest that buying diesel cars instead wouldn't win them much, certainly not enough to offset the cost of chucking away a working car and replacing it with a brand new one. OK, so perhaps if they all drive cars with 400in^3 V8 engines that get, like, 99hp, switching to a modern 2-3L diesel car would produce a useful improvement. But I somehow doubt they do... so I suspect it would not.)
Quote:
"Whereas in the past diesels, even gutsy ones, have felt like the compromised choice, the A8's V8 complements the essential character of the car, doling out bulging parcels of energy that you can employ either to waft along autobahns, or to provide a high speed link between corners; it's a mighty effective engine, but like the A8 as a whole, it's more discreet than flamboyant.
Several of us in the evo office have reservations about diesel engines as appropriate propulsion for proper sports cars, but this Audi oil-burner - and doubtless the V8 turbodiesels from Mercedes and BMW - demonstrates that a punchy and well-mannered turbodiesel has a place in high- performance luxury saloons. And that is a very peculiar thing to be writing."
See: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/5785...
Like most 40-somethings, I grew up despising diesels; as the diesels of my formative years were horrible. I'd still not have one in a sports car. But in a real-world family car or company car, where you need discreet pace, modern BMW and Audi sixes and the Audi 8 cylinder diesels do not feel like a compromise. They're not sporting revvy engines obviously, but they sound OK, the performance per mpg ratio is excellent, and **** they're seriously quick - not just "quick for a diesel" - these are fast cars, period.
"Whereas in the past diesels, even gutsy ones, have felt like the compromised choice, the A8's V8 complements the essential character of the car, doling out bulging parcels of energy that you can employ either to waft along autobahns, or to provide a high speed link between corners; it's a mighty effective engine, but like the A8 as a whole, it's more discreet than flamboyant.
Several of us in the evo office have reservations about diesel engines as appropriate propulsion for proper sports cars, but this Audi oil-burner - and doubtless the V8 turbodiesels from Mercedes and BMW - demonstrates that a punchy and well-mannered turbodiesel has a place in high- performance luxury saloons. And that is a very peculiar thing to be writing."
See: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/5785...
Like most 40-somethings, I grew up despising diesels; as the diesels of my formative years were horrible. I'd still not have one in a sports car. But in a real-world family car or company car, where you need discreet pace, modern BMW and Audi sixes and the Audi 8 cylinder diesels do not feel like a compromise. They're not sporting revvy engines obviously, but they sound OK, the performance per mpg ratio is excellent, and **** they're seriously quick - not just "quick for a diesel" - these are fast cars, period.
I don't think there's any evidence to say that human co2 output is contributing to so called climate change. I think the whole climate change thing is massive con, it's an industry. Lots of people are getting very rich from it. I'm not saying we shouldn't look after our planet but the whole climate change scaremongering thing is just wrong. I know politicians and other idiots say that the debate is over but there's just as many scientists that disagree with man made global warming as do agree with it. The only difference being that you never here from a scientist that disagrees with climate change unless it's to be mocked or called a 'denier' by morons like George Monibot. I wonder why this might be?
wigsworld said:
I don't think there's any evidence to say that human co2 output is contributing to so called climate change. I think the whole climate change thing is massive con, it's an industry. Lots of people are getting very rich from it. I'm not saying we shouldn't look after our planet but the whole climate change scaremongering thing is just wrong. I know politicians and other idiots say that the debate is over but there's just as many scientists that disagree with man made global warming as do agree with it. The only difference being that you never here from a scientist that disagrees with climate change unless it's to be mocked or called a 'denier' by morons like George Monibot. I wonder why this might be?
Either way, diesels were very popular and growing in popularity long before the climate change thing became an issue. When it comes to doing proper work diesel has been the no.1 choice for decades. It just so happens that when environmental issues became important diesels were still best.
heebeegeetee said:
Either way, diesels were very popular and growing in popularity long before the climate change thing became an issue. When it comes to doing proper work diesel has been the no.1 choice for decades.
It just so happens that when environmental issues became important diesels were still best.
Diesels have there place, but they're not ideal for everyone. A lot of people would be better off with a small petrol car.It just so happens that when environmental issues became important diesels were still best.
EDLT said:
Those myths aren't debunked, diesels are louder, dirtier and rougher than petrol engines.
Unless you buy a honda 2.2 i-ctd-i I was checking my tyre pressures with my little electric pump yesterday, and left the car on idle whilst doing it (so as not to flatten the battery - lol)
I was adding a bit (from 28 to 35 psi) to the rear tyre. When the pump had turned off I had to check that the engine was still running, as it was so quiet.
wigsworld said:
I don't think there's any evidence to say that human co2 output is contributing to so called climate change. I think the whole climate change thing is massive con, it's an industry. Lots of people are getting very rich from it. I'm not saying we shouldn't look after our planet but the whole climate change scaremongering thing is just wrong. I know politicians and other idiots say that the debate is over but there's just as many scientists that disagree with man made global warming as do agree with it. The only difference being that you never here from a scientist that disagrees with climate change unless it's to be mocked or called a 'denier' by morons like George Monibot. I wonder why this might be?
This. I'm an qualified Environmental Scientist, imo it's all horsepoo, frankly. An industry built on scaremongering.
CO2 is harmless (unless it's the only thing you're breathing, then it's lethal, btw)
Still, diesels have their place, I wouldn't get the mileage from a 2 litre car the size of my wifes if it were petrol but it doesn't drive like one either, it's a comfy, safe cruiser, nothing more.
New POD said:
Unless you buy a honda 2.2 i-ctd-i
I was checking my tyre pressures with my little electric pump yesterday, and left the car on idle whilst doing it (so as not to flatten the battery - lol)
I was adding a bit (from 28 to 35 psi) to the rear tyre. When the pump had turned off I had to check that the engine was still running, as it was so quiet.
Don't be daft. It's blatant rubbish like that which gives the diesel fans a bad name. I was checking my tyre pressures with my little electric pump yesterday, and left the car on idle whilst doing it (so as not to flatten the battery - lol)
I was adding a bit (from 28 to 35 psi) to the rear tyre. When the pump had turned off I had to check that the engine was still running, as it was so quiet.
tommy1973s said:
Quote:
"Whereas in the past diesels, even gutsy ones, have felt like the compromised choice, the A8's V8 complements the essential character of the car, doling out bulging parcels of energy that you can employ either to waft along autobahns, or to provide a high speed link between corners; it's a mighty effective engine, but like the A8 as a whole, it's more discreet than flamboyant.
Several of us in the evo office have reservations about diesel engines as appropriate propulsion for proper sports cars, but this Audi oil-burner - and doubtless the V8 turbodiesels from Mercedes and BMW - demonstrates that a punchy and well-mannered turbodiesel has a place in high- performance luxury saloons. And that is a very peculiar thing to be writing."
See: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/5785...
Like most 40-somethings, I grew up despising diesels; as the diesels of my formative years were horrible. I'd still not have one in a sports car. But in a real-world family car or company car, where you need discreet pace, modern BMW and Audi sixes and the Audi 8 cylinder diesels do not feel like a compromise. They're not sporting revvy engines obviously, but they sound OK, the performance per mpg ratio is excellent, and **** they're seriously quick - not just "quick for a diesel" - these are fast cars, period.
Interesting but likely to be ignored by the haters who have no clue."Whereas in the past diesels, even gutsy ones, have felt like the compromised choice, the A8's V8 complements the essential character of the car, doling out bulging parcels of energy that you can employ either to waft along autobahns, or to provide a high speed link between corners; it's a mighty effective engine, but like the A8 as a whole, it's more discreet than flamboyant.
Several of us in the evo office have reservations about diesel engines as appropriate propulsion for proper sports cars, but this Audi oil-burner - and doubtless the V8 turbodiesels from Mercedes and BMW - demonstrates that a punchy and well-mannered turbodiesel has a place in high- performance luxury saloons. And that is a very peculiar thing to be writing."
See: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/5785...
Like most 40-somethings, I grew up despising diesels; as the diesels of my formative years were horrible. I'd still not have one in a sports car. But in a real-world family car or company car, where you need discreet pace, modern BMW and Audi sixes and the Audi 8 cylinder diesels do not feel like a compromise. They're not sporting revvy engines obviously, but they sound OK, the performance per mpg ratio is excellent, and **** they're seriously quick - not just "quick for a diesel" - these are fast cars, period.
Thing is what most people (probably not on here!) need, is a cheap plug in electric car with a gas turbine backup generator.
When cruising on the motorway most cars (depends on aerodynamic drag) use about 10kw (about 13bhp).
As most journeys are under 10 miles a range of say 50miles on batteries would cover this need.
Now obviously there are those occasions where 50miles isn't enough, a gas turbine (properly implemented) can be more efficient than a conventional reciprocating engine and has been shown GT outside of it's goldilocks zone isn't happy. Hence use it as a generator.
GT's can be configured to run on any liquid that burns (within reason!).
They are also small and lightweight, compensating somewhat for the weight of the batteries.
Additionally, when electric only, you're not lugging a heavy engine around.
The GT would need to produce between 12-15kw (allows the batteries to recharge while driving)
At current electricity prices on plugin it would cost about £2/50miles.
Show me your gallon of either Petrol or Diesel that can match this? (Ok, I'm not counting wear and tear on the batteries!)
The main issues are:
1. Cost, all these components are expensive.
2. Batteries just aren't reliable enough yet.
3. No one has a production grade GT Generator for automotive use.
Now as I get flamed for all this, an electric car for the Pistonheader:
http://www.rimac-automobili.com/
When cruising on the motorway most cars (depends on aerodynamic drag) use about 10kw (about 13bhp).
As most journeys are under 10 miles a range of say 50miles on batteries would cover this need.
Now obviously there are those occasions where 50miles isn't enough, a gas turbine (properly implemented) can be more efficient than a conventional reciprocating engine and has been shown GT outside of it's goldilocks zone isn't happy. Hence use it as a generator.
GT's can be configured to run on any liquid that burns (within reason!
).They are also small and lightweight, compensating somewhat for the weight of the batteries.
Additionally, when electric only, you're not lugging a heavy engine around.
The GT would need to produce between 12-15kw (allows the batteries to recharge while driving)
At current electricity prices on plugin it would cost about £2/50miles.
Show me your gallon of either Petrol or Diesel that can match this? (Ok, I'm not counting wear and tear on the batteries!)
The main issues are:
1. Cost, all these components are expensive.
2. Batteries just aren't reliable enough yet.
3. No one has a production grade GT Generator for automotive use.
Now as I get flamed for all this, an electric car for the Pistonheader:
http://www.rimac-automobili.com/
Fox- said:
Vladimir said:
Interesting but likely to be ignored by the haters who have no clue.
Does your constant aggressive crusade to convince everyone you meet on the internet that your car is best never get tiring?The entire subject is tiring.
RichTBiscuit said:
What he said.
Without taking running costs into account, I've not met one person (who knows about cars) who would buy a diesel over a petrol.
Yes but at £1:50/L you have to take running costs into account! Without taking running costs into account, I've not met one person (who knows about cars) who would buy a diesel over a petrol.
Now if it cost 62p/L a V8 might well be sat on the drive...
P.S. I run a 3L oil burner which when chipped put out 280bhp & returns 40+mpg best of both worlds!!!
TheHeretic said:
There is a siege mentality on both sides. On one the diesel fans who are, on this website anyway, constantly barraged with claims that their cars are not drivers cars, rubbish to drive, and so on, and on the other you have the 'petrol is the true fuel for a petrol head' which again is patently false. The number of these diesel threads that pop up, and the predictable threads therein just go to show how ingrained each position is. The diesel owners should not have to justify, or defend their choice of fuel at every turn, and nor should the petrol folks care what fuel other driver use, or deem it PH or not.
The entire subject is tiring.
I dont think the issue is so much people like vlad with genuinelly capable 335d's, its more the increasing mentality of the average diesel driver, doing 5k a miles a year in a clattery 2.0 TDI S-Line 140 under the genuine impression its some sort of a supercar and that the 2.0TFSI he could have bought for the same money with sod all difference in running costs given the low mileage just 'isnt as good as it hasnt got the torque, innit'. I mean just look at that guy above. He reckons his 4 cylinder diesel engine is so quiet that he's gone above the usual 'you cant tell its a diesel' cliche and has declared that even standing outside of the car by the front wheel he couldnt hear the engine. I mean.. really? It's just delusion - and the reason why things get heated is because these people have actually convinced themselves what they say is true.The entire subject is tiring.
I think you'd probably need to buy something like a Phantom before you actually needed to physically check the car was running becuase you couldnt hear the engine when stood beside the engine bay.
Buying a diesel is a compromise. Quite why people get so touchy about that I've no idea, whats wrong with it being a compromise? I'll probably compromise and buy one next as well but I do hope I don't turn into a diesel crusader and try and convince everyone and myself that I didnt buy a 550i because I 'wanted the torque of the superior diesel'.
Edited by Fox- on Saturday 28th April 09:06
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