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XitUp

7,690 posts

90 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
sleep envy said:
Andy ap said:
Just took an A3 TDI s-line for a spin round the block to see if i can find any merit in Derv..... laaaaag. BOOST! and before you know it its all over.
That's more telling of your driving style than anything else to be honest. If you anticipate things slightly better and make sure you're in the right gear you won't have a problem.
No, not really. You get lag in any gear.

blueg33 said:
I wonder.......

A roads with traffic, 200bhp diesel vs 200bhp petrol which would get your overtakes done fastest and hence get you ahead of more of the slow moving cars.

I am pretty certain that from my experience (with auto's) it would be the diesel. In the diesel at 40mph starting your overtake, you will already be at or around max power, in the petrol you will not get to max power before you are well over the speed limit unless you trundle around in traffic in 3rd.
I'd just change down a few gears in the petrol. Imagine that!

Hellbound said:
Thanks for illustrating exactly what's wrong with London; Short to medium journeys made in high polluting vehicles in high density traffic by people who are utterly oblivious to the needs of the majority of inhabitants around them. Respiratory disease and respiratory failure are the biggest killers in cities like London. This is why the next mayor needs to really start doing something about cleaning up London's air, both with buses/taxis and private/business vehicles.

I liken it to being stuck in a lift with 10 people, one of whom thinks its perfectly fine to start puffing on a cigar. Sure you'll ignore it the first couple of times. But after a month of breathing in that poison, you're going to want to slap the thing off his face. Although he'd probably suggest you took the stairs or found another place to work. It's sad we still live in an era where such bizarre logic is still supported by an alarmingly large number of people.
Would be worse if he was driving a diesel though.

blueg33 said:
If its any help to the discussion, electric motors are even smoother than petrol engines, and run at high revs.

Shouldn't everyone be demanding that we go to those? They offer everything and more that the diesel haters say is good about petrol.
Yes, in most cars we should. Much better than diesel.

wigsworld said:
Of course c02 emissions are irrelevant, it's a harmless natural gas
Are you a scientist?

wigsworld

256 posts

72 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
XitUp said:
Are you a scientist?
Yes

XitUp

7,690 posts

90 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
Interesting take on it. How come you disagree with most other scientists on it then?

to3m

447 posts

56 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
sealtt said:
sleep envy said:
Not trying to be provocative but if given the choice between two cars and everything (cost, mpg, servicing, etc) was the same with the exception of what fuel they used I'd be hard pressed to pick between the two.

90-95% of my miles are now driven in London (I did buy my diesel when I was doing 25k+ PA) and to be honest the way it delivers the power does make it quite an easy way to drive through traffic.
I live in central London & work in the city - i drive in to work - this is about 3.0 miles and most of that journey - which can be 20mins-40mins - is spent sitting in congestion. However, I am sitting in a SL with big 5.5l supercharged V8... so every time i pull away i get to hear that great noise and i can still occasionally enjoy gunning it through a tunnel or empty street.

I am only doing about 40 miles per week and so 5mpg or 20mpg doesn't really make any material difference in cash terms. However, I spend a decent amount of actual time in the car each week and a big V8 is massively superior & more enjoyable than just about any diesel I can think of.

So for me, living in a major & congested city makes buying a big engine gas guzzler a no brainer - only if you are doing big mileage on motorways is a diesel worth it.
Regarding the fuel consumption, and ignoring any driving pleasure (since I have found that people prefer to be paid with money...), you may better off buying a diesel if you do lots of town miles. It could be a bit pointless if you just drive on the motorway. Driving at a constant speed is always going to be efficient.

Figures for the last car I was looking at, BMW 330i (E46) or BMW 330d (E46), assuming 8000 miles per year at £1.35/L for petrol and £1.45/L for diesel.

E46 330i urban - 22.1mpg - 1,646 litres/year - £2,222
E46 330d actual figures for dirty town driving in hilly Sheffield - 31.5mpg - 1,154 litres/year - £1,673

E46 330i extra-urban - 40.9mpg - 889 litres/year - £1,200
E46 330d actual figures for motorway driving - 45mpg - 808 litres/year - £1,171

(I'm not sure what the actual figures for a 330i are - I ended up buying the 330d. The general consensus seem to be that for petrol cars, the quoted figures are realistic. So I just copied them out of the owner's manual.)

Of course, the seller, and other buyers, will all have run similar calculations, and the diesel model will therefore command some kind of a premium. And you should also consider the possibility of some enormously expensive surprise diesel engine repair. Nevertheless, this demonstrates that running the figures will give you a more accurate answer than simply following rules of thumb, even though not everybody will necessarily reach the same conclusion.

(I've only ever visited America on holiday, so, regarding America, what can I say? But if they genuinely drive as much as they're often claimed to, presumably much of it must be on the motorways, otherwise there wouldn't be enough days in the year to fit it all in. And my calculations therefore suggest that buying diesel cars instead wouldn't win them much, certainly not enough to offset the cost of chucking away a working car and replacing it with a brand new one. OK, so perhaps if they all drive cars with 400in^3 V8 engines that get, like, 99hp, switching to a modern 2-3L diesel car would produce a useful improvement. But I somehow doubt they do... so I suspect it would not.)

tommy1973s

163 posts

57 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
Quote:

"Whereas in the past diesels, even gutsy ones, have felt like the compromised choice, the A8's V8 complements the essential character of the car, doling out bulging parcels of energy that you can employ either to waft along autobahns, or to provide a high speed link between corners; it's a mighty effective engine, but like the A8 as a whole, it's more discreet than flamboyant.

Several of us in the evo office have reservations about diesel engines as appropriate propulsion for proper sports cars, but this Audi oil-burner - and doubtless the V8 turbodiesels from Mercedes and BMW - demonstrates that a punchy and well-mannered turbodiesel has a place in high- performance luxury saloons. And that is a very peculiar thing to be writing."

See: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/5785...

Like most 40-somethings, I grew up despising diesels; as the diesels of my formative years were horrible. I'd still not have one in a sports car. But in a real-world family car or company car, where you need discreet pace, modern BMW and Audi sixes and the Audi 8 cylinder diesels do not feel like a compromise. They're not sporting revvy engines obviously, but they sound OK, the performance per mpg ratio is excellent, and **** they're seriously quick - not just "quick for a diesel" - these are fast cars, period.
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wigsworld

256 posts

72 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
I don't think there's any evidence to say that human co2 output is contributing to so called climate change. I think the whole climate change thing is massive con, it's an industry. Lots of people are getting very rich from it. I'm not saying we shouldn't look after our planet but the whole climate change scaremongering thing is just wrong. I know politicians and other idiots say that the debate is over but there's just as many scientists that disagree with man made global warming as do agree with it. The only difference being that you never here from a scientist that disagrees with climate change unless it's to be mocked or called a 'denier' by morons like George Monibot. I wonder why this might be?

heebeegeetee

21,642 posts

134 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
wigsworld said:
I don't think there's any evidence to say that human co2 output is contributing to so called climate change. I think the whole climate change thing is massive con, it's an industry. Lots of people are getting very rich from it. I'm not saying we shouldn't look after our planet but the whole climate change scaremongering thing is just wrong. I know politicians and other idiots say that the debate is over but there's just as many scientists that disagree with man made global warming as do agree with it. The only difference being that you never here from a scientist that disagrees with climate change unless it's to be mocked or called a 'denier' by morons like George Monibot. I wonder why this might be?
Either way, diesels were very popular and growing in popularity long before the climate change thing became an issue. When it comes to doing proper work diesel has been the no.1 choice for decades.

It just so happens that when environmental issues became important diesels were still best.



wigsworld

256 posts

72 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
heebeegeetee said:
Either way, diesels were very popular and growing in popularity long before the climate change thing became an issue. When it comes to doing proper work diesel has been the no.1 choice for decades.

It just so happens that when environmental issues became important diesels were still best.
Diesels have there place, but they're not ideal for everyone. A lot of people would be better off with a small petrol car.

New POD

3,851 posts

36 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
EDLT said:
Those myths aren't debunked, diesels are louder, dirtier and rougher than petrol engines.
Unless you buy a honda 2.2 i-ctd-i

I was checking my tyre pressures with my little electric pump yesterday, and left the car on idle whilst doing it (so as not to flatten the battery - lol)

I was adding a bit (from 28 to 35 psi) to the rear tyre. When the pump had turned off I had to check that the engine was still running, as it was so quiet.

Oilchange

3,238 posts

146 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
wigsworld said:
I don't think there's any evidence to say that human co2 output is contributing to so called climate change. I think the whole climate change thing is massive con, it's an industry. Lots of people are getting very rich from it. I'm not saying we shouldn't look after our planet but the whole climate change scaremongering thing is just wrong. I know politicians and other idiots say that the debate is over but there's just as many scientists that disagree with man made global warming as do agree with it. The only difference being that you never here from a scientist that disagrees with climate change unless it's to be mocked or called a 'denier' by morons like George Monibot. I wonder why this might be?
This.
I'm an qualified Environmental Scientist, imo it's all horsepoo, frankly. An industry built on scaremongering.
CO2 is harmless (unless it's the only thing you're breathing, then it's lethal, btw) wink

Still, diesels have their place, I wouldn't get the mileage from a 2 litre car the size of my wifes if it were petrol but it doesn't drive like one either, it's a comfy, safe cruiser, nothing more.

Fox-

11,226 posts

132 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
New POD said:
Unless you buy a honda 2.2 i-ctd-i

I was checking my tyre pressures with my little electric pump yesterday, and left the car on idle whilst doing it (so as not to flatten the battery - lol)

I was adding a bit (from 28 to 35 psi) to the rear tyre. When the pump had turned off I had to check that the engine was still running, as it was so quiet.
Don't be daft. It's blatant rubbish like that which gives the diesel fans a bad name.

Vladimir

6,917 posts

44 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
tommy1973s said:
Quote:

"Whereas in the past diesels, even gutsy ones, have felt like the compromised choice, the A8's V8 complements the essential character of the car, doling out bulging parcels of energy that you can employ either to waft along autobahns, or to provide a high speed link between corners; it's a mighty effective engine, but like the A8 as a whole, it's more discreet than flamboyant.

Several of us in the evo office have reservations about diesel engines as appropriate propulsion for proper sports cars, but this Audi oil-burner - and doubtless the V8 turbodiesels from Mercedes and BMW - demonstrates that a punchy and well-mannered turbodiesel has a place in high- performance luxury saloons. And that is a very peculiar thing to be writing."

See: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/5785...

Like most 40-somethings, I grew up despising diesels; as the diesels of my formative years were horrible. I'd still not have one in a sports car. But in a real-world family car or company car, where you need discreet pace, modern BMW and Audi sixes and the Audi 8 cylinder diesels do not feel like a compromise. They're not sporting revvy engines obviously, but they sound OK, the performance per mpg ratio is excellent, and **** they're seriously quick - not just "quick for a diesel" - these are fast cars, period.
Interesting but likely to be ignored by the haters who have no clue.

annodomini2

5,096 posts

137 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
Thing is what most people (probably not on here!) need, is a cheap plug in electric car with a gas turbine backup generator.

When cruising on the motorway most cars (depends on aerodynamic drag) use about 10kw (about 13bhp).

As most journeys are under 10 miles a range of say 50miles on batteries would cover this need.

Now obviously there are those occasions where 50miles isn't enough, a gas turbine (properly implemented) can be more efficient than a conventional reciprocating engine and has been shown GT outside of it's goldilocks zone isn't happy. Hence use it as a generator.

GT's can be configured to run on any liquid that burns (within reason! wink).

They are also small and lightweight, compensating somewhat for the weight of the batteries.

Additionally, when electric only, you're not lugging a heavy engine around.

The GT would need to produce between 12-15kw (allows the batteries to recharge while driving)

At current electricity prices on plugin it would cost about £2/50miles.

Show me your gallon of either Petrol or Diesel that can match this? (Ok, I'm not counting wear and tear on the batteries!)

The main issues are:

1. Cost, all these components are expensive.
2. Batteries just aren't reliable enough yet.
3. No one has a production grade GT Generator for automotive use.

Now as I get flamed for all this, an electric car for the Pistonheader:

http://www.rimac-automobili.com/

Fox-

11,226 posts

132 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
Vladimir said:
Interesting but likely to be ignored by the haters who have no clue.
Does your constant aggressive crusade to convince everyone you meet on the internet that your car is best never get tiring?

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

141 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
Fox- said:
Vladimir said:
Interesting but likely to be ignored by the haters who have no clue.
Does your constant aggressive crusade to convince everyone you meet on the internet that your car is best never get tiring?
There is a siege mentality on both sides. On one the diesel fans who are, on this website anyway, constantly barraged with claims that their cars are not drivers cars, rubbish to drive, and so on, and on the other you have the 'petrol is the true fuel for a petrol head' which again is patently false. The number of these diesel threads that pop up, and the predictable threads therein just go to show how ingrained each position is. The diesel owners should not have to justify, or defend their choice of fuel at every turn, and nor should the petrol folks care what fuel other driver use, or deem it PH or not.

The entire subject is tiring.

SeiW500

194 posts

54 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
RichTBiscuit said:
What he said.

Without taking running costs into account, I've not met one person (who knows about cars) who would buy a diesel over a petrol.
Yes but at £1:50/L you have to take running costs into account! frown
Now if it cost 62p/L a V8 might well be sat on the drive...

P.S. I run a 3L oil burner which when chipped put out 280bhp & returns 40+mpg best of both worlds!!!

Fox-

11,226 posts

132 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
There is a siege mentality on both sides. On one the diesel fans who are, on this website anyway, constantly barraged with claims that their cars are not drivers cars, rubbish to drive, and so on, and on the other you have the 'petrol is the true fuel for a petrol head' which again is patently false. The number of these diesel threads that pop up, and the predictable threads therein just go to show how ingrained each position is. The diesel owners should not have to justify, or defend their choice of fuel at every turn, and nor should the petrol folks care what fuel other driver use, or deem it PH or not.

The entire subject is tiring.
I dont think the issue is so much people like vlad with genuinelly capable 335d's, its more the increasing mentality of the average diesel driver, doing 5k a miles a year in a clattery 2.0 TDI S-Line 140 under the genuine impression its some sort of a supercar and that the 2.0TFSI he could have bought for the same money with sod all difference in running costs given the low mileage just 'isnt as good as it hasnt got the torque, innit'. I mean just look at that guy above. He reckons his 4 cylinder diesel engine is so quiet that he's gone above the usual 'you cant tell its a diesel' cliche and has declared that even standing outside of the car by the front wheel he couldnt hear the engine. I mean.. really? It's just delusion - and the reason why things get heated is because these people have actually convinced themselves what they say is true.

I think you'd probably need to buy something like a Phantom before you actually needed to physically check the car was running becuase you couldnt hear the engine when stood beside the engine bay.

Buying a diesel is a compromise. Quite why people get so touchy about that I've no idea, whats wrong with it being a compromise? I'll probably compromise and buy one next as well but I do hope I don't turn into a diesel crusader and try and convince everyone and myself that I didnt buy a 550i because I 'wanted the torque of the superior diesel'.

Edited by Fox- on Saturday 28th April 09:06

angusc43

2,928 posts

94 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
tommy1973s said:
Quote:

Like most 40-somethings, I grew up despising diesels; as the diesels of my formative years were horrible.
I suffer badly from this. And because I usually buy cars at 5+ years old and am run around London in 10 yr old diesels I'm partially biased by impressions of older ones.

tommy1973s said:
I'd still not have one in a sports car.
Nope.

tommy1973s said:
But in a real-world family car or company car, where you need discreet pace, modern BMW and Audi sixes and the Audi 8 cylinder diesels do not feel like a compromise. They're not sporting revvy engines obviously, but they sound OK, the performance per mpg ratio is excellent, and **** they're seriously quick - not just "quick for a diesel" - these are fast cars, period.
Fair enough - some of the very latest multis are way better than before. I have driven an E Class with the V6 diesel and I actually like how it sounded from inside and liked the low down torque. Only really drove it round urban roads, though so didn't get to rev it out. Or maybe I did?

A mate has a TD V8 RRS and I got him to fire it up from cold and it was probably the first one I'd heard fire from cold that didn't sound like a bag of spanners from the outside. Another mate has just bought an XF and that's also pretty quiet.

The other day I had a go in my FIL's new (yr old) Octavia VRS diesel and for a four it was good. Much less boomy inside than his previous Seat diesel (and all other 4 pots I've ever been in, tbh). To drive it was better too. Still nothing below 1k, though, and although you could row it to 5000 rpm it was all over by the low 4000's. So a useable band of about 2000-2250 rpm rather than, say 1500 for earlier ones.

So the gap in capabilites has narrowed. For me, buying s/h at 5+ years old, the first gen of diesels that I would seriously consider is only jut becoming available. If I were move out of London and combined two car mileage went from under 10k a year to 25k I would probably end up in a diesel or two because the cost of the fuel to run the petrol equivalents would become a significant factor.

But, as I reminded my wife last night, we'd only do all that if I were able to compensate by having something petrol and interesting tucked away with a petrol multi - V8/V6/I6/flat six.

Americans don't have the same punitive taxes on their fuel. I can't see them changing much too soon. Those with money will still do the multi-petrol. This with less dispoable or whole feel they should cut down will do hybrids, lpg of just go for next gen ultra efficient and smaller turbo'd petrols.

Vladimir

6,917 posts

44 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
Fox- said:
I dont think the issue is so much people like vlad with genuinelly capable 335d's, its more the increasing mentality of the average diesel driver, doing 5k a miles a year in a clattery 2.0 TDI S-Line 140 under the genuine impression its some sort of a supercar and that the 2.0TFSI he could have bought for the same money with sod all difference in running costs given the low mileage just 'isnt as good as it hasnt got the torque, innit'. I mean just look at that guy above. He reckons his 4 cylinder diesel engine is so quiet that he's gone above the usual 'you cant tell its a diesel' cliche and has declared that even standing outside of the car by the front wheel he couldnt hear the engine. I mean.. really? It's just delusion - and the reason why things get heated is because these people have actually convinced themselves what they say is true.u

I think you'd probably need to buy something like a Phantom before you actually needed to physically check the car was running becuase you couldnt hear the engine when stood beside the engine bay.

Buying a diesel is a compromise. Quite why people get so touchy about that I've no idea, whats wrong with it being a compromise? I'll probably compromise and buy one next as well but I do hope I don't turn into a diesel crusader and try and convince everyone and myself that I didnt buy a 550i because I 'wanted the torque of the superior diesel'.

Edited by Fox- on Saturday 28th April 09:06
See I actually agree with your first sentence. And the reason some of us appear defensive? You try running a car you truly enjoy, something you've wanted fir years, then have a bunch of ill informed TG quoting goons constantly attack your choice of car. Oddly enough, it gets rather irritating.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

141 months

[news] 
Saturday 28th April 2012 quote quote all
Fox- said:
I dont think the issue is so much people like vlad with genuinelly capable 335d's, its more the increasing mentality of the average diesel driver, doing 5k a miles a year in a clattery 2.0 TDI S-Line 140 under the genuine impression its some sort of a supercar and that the 2.0TFSI he could have bought for the same money with sod all difference in running costs given the low mileage just 'isnt as good as it hasnt got the torque, innit'. I mean just look at that guy above. He reckons his 4 cylinder diesel engine is so quiet that he's gone above the usual 'you cant tell its a diesel' cliche and has declared that even standing outside of the car by the front wheel he couldnt hear the engine. I mean.. really? It's just delusion - and the reason why things get heated is because these people have actually convinced themselves what they say is true.

I think you'd probably need to buy something like a Phantom before you actually needed to physically check the car was running becuase you couldnt hear the engine when stood beside the engine bay.

Buying a diesel is a compromise. Quite why people get so touchy about that I've no idea, whats wrong with it being a compromise? I'll probably compromise and buy one next as well but I do hope I don't turn into a diesel crusader and try and convince everyone and myself that I didnt buy a 550i because I 'wanted the torque of the superior diesel'.

Edited by Fox- on Saturday 28th April 09:06
Can you show me anyone that thinks it is a supercar? Most of the time people talk about real world performance, and being able to make rapid progress.

I think some people read too much into stuff.
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