RE: Time for Tea? BR-Z and GT-86 take on MX-5
Discussion
MX7 said:
That's built in the US. The GT86 is built in Japan and exported to the UK and US.
The point isn't that cars are cheaper in America, which we all know, it's how the same car can be priced so vastly differently that they are addressing different markets.
And your question has been answered several times.The point isn't that cars are cheaper in America, which we all know, it's how the same car can be priced so vastly differently that they are addressing different markets.
My view is they will not sell well at all untill they bring out one with more power which will happen, maybe 9 months in, anything else will not matter
I can't see anyone under the age of 35 spending 25k on one unless they have a turbo to play with, it just won't have the bhp kudos I'm afraid, ricers want turbos and the associated whoosh and bolt on goods re maps etc, is there really gonna be many over 35 types choosing this over a 325i or something similar but only time will tell,
I can't see anyone under the age of 35 spending 25k on one unless they have a turbo to play with, it just won't have the bhp kudos I'm afraid, ricers want turbos and the associated whoosh and bolt on goods re maps etc, is there really gonna be many over 35 types choosing this over a 325i or something similar but only time will tell,
Exactly... I have a account friend, a Brit, living over on Denmark... Used car prices are unbelievably high, sometimes more than the equivalent new car in the UK. New car prices are subject to 300% tax. We pay far less for our cars than we used to and less than Europeon
Alas those question the differences in prices will take no notice of the reason given...
I give up on PH forum, too much like primary school.
Alas those question the differences in prices will take no notice of the reason given...
I give up on PH forum, too much like primary school.
MX7 said:
That's built in the US. The GT86 is built in Japan and exported to the UK and US.
The point isn't that cars are cheaper in America, which we all know, it's how the same car can be priced so vastly differently that they are addressing different markets.
Just about every possibility to explain price difference has been mentioned from several posters. Pick whichever one you are happy with.The point isn't that cars are cheaper in America, which we all know, it's how the same car can be priced so vastly differently that they are addressing different markets.
Anyway who really cares, nobody. The only important point is what the BRZ/GT86 is costing the punter in the U.K. or where ever one resides and if they are happy paying it. Anyway give us a laugh, what's your problem with the price (as I said earlier havn't read any of your posts prior to you being pedantic over some example figures I used), are you wanting chop in MX5 and feel the BRZ/GT86 is too expensive? If so, that's life.
Fittster said:
With Lotus on their death bed and the lack of interest in this car hopefully we will see less hypocrisy about want kind of cars people want.
They want it everyway. Badge, turbo power, 100mpg @ 50p per litre, track focused, family taxi and bragging rights down the pub. Harsh? Maybe, but sometimes we don't realise how well off we are in motoring terms. LukeyLikey said:
Flame me if you like but it's totally wrong, I'm afraid. We pay 10% duty on items imported from Japan. We have 20% VAT here, they don't (and they don't quote their prices with sales tax, usually a few percent that gets added on after.) Plus we have showroom tax based on CO2 level. Then there's the freight costs, which are more into Europe than America and obviously none at all into Japan. On top of all that, there's the emissions and crash testing that has to be spread over fewer cars into Europe than America. Actually, the list goes on but you get the point. There should probably be around 40% difference just in taxes, freight and other costs.
Profit margins in the car industry are shot to pieces - check UK dealer and distributor accounts if you don't believe me.
When the 'rip-off Britain' campaign was launched in 2000, the issue was the strengthening of the pound versus the weakening of the Euro, which makes a massive difference to car prices, not the car industry ripping everyone off as reported. Nowadays, the UK is one of the cheapest markets in Europe and many cars are leaving these shores because of how low valued our currency is.
No flaming here, im all ears!Profit margins in the car industry are shot to pieces - check UK dealer and distributor accounts if you don't believe me.
When the 'rip-off Britain' campaign was launched in 2000, the issue was the strengthening of the pound versus the weakening of the Euro, which makes a massive difference to car prices, not the car industry ripping everyone off as reported. Nowadays, the UK is one of the cheapest markets in Europe and many cars are leaving these shores because of how low valued our currency is.
But seeing as your 40% is purely guesswork i feel its difficult to even reason with you, if your one that believes the UK dealers have a hard time its a pointless discussion.
I see one of my towns dealership owners locally, lets just put it like this, he doesnt live the wrong side of the tracks and by the looks of it, he enjoys having the top down on his new Rolls
poor chap, his mark up must be terrible!!Gaz. said:
Johnboy Mac said:
It's pity s m that they don't stick to one set regulations. Merc & BMW from what I recall gave the weight of the basic car (without options/special equipment), tank 90% full, driver 68kg plus 7kg baggage.
My e36 318iS weighed 1250kg according to the hand book.I simply do not believe an e36 can weigh 1135kg once the 'extras' have been taken into account.
jetpilot said:
LukeyLikey said:
Flame me if you like but it's totally wrong, I'm afraid. We pay 10% duty on items imported from Japan. We have 20% VAT here, they don't (and they don't quote their prices with sales tax, usually a few percent that gets added on after.) Plus we have showroom tax based on CO2 level. Then there's the freight costs, which are more into Europe than America and obviously none at all into Japan. On top of all that, there's the emissions and crash testing that has to be spread over fewer cars into Europe than America. Actually, the list goes on but you get the point. There should probably be around 40% difference just in taxes, freight and other costs.
Profit margins in the car industry are shot to pieces - check UK dealer and distributor accounts if you don't believe me.
When the 'rip-off Britain' campaign was launched in 2000, the issue was the strengthening of the pound versus the weakening of the Euro, which makes a massive difference to car prices, not the car industry ripping everyone off as reported. Nowadays, the UK is one of the cheapest markets in Europe and many cars are leaving these shores because of how low valued our currency is.
No flaming here, im all ears!Profit margins in the car industry are shot to pieces - check UK dealer and distributor accounts if you don't believe me.
When the 'rip-off Britain' campaign was launched in 2000, the issue was the strengthening of the pound versus the weakening of the Euro, which makes a massive difference to car prices, not the car industry ripping everyone off as reported. Nowadays, the UK is one of the cheapest markets in Europe and many cars are leaving these shores because of how low valued our currency is.
But seeing as your 40% is purely guesswork i feel its difficult to even reason with you, if your one that believes the UK dealers have a hard time its a pointless discussion.
I see one of my towns dealership owners locally, lets just put it like this, he doesnt live the wrong side of the tracks and by the looks of it, he enjoys having the top down on his new Rolls
poor chap, his mark up must be terrible!!You will always find some dealers doing well and others not. You have to look at the industry rather than use isolated examples. The retail motor industry when it's doing well makes about 2% on sales for new cars. When you consider the risk involved (most dealers are totally funded by the bank and 2% profit easily becomes a loss) you realise that car dealers for the most part have to put in a lot of work to make their businesses successful.
To make any money over the long term you have to give great service to your customers - in which case you deserve what you earn and your customers are getting good value.
Look at the sectors that attract heavy stock market investment - the retail motor industry is not among them.
I'm not convinced either will sell that well per se (though might do well in their small segment).
Dynamics don't necessarily sell coupes like these- look at how well the Calibra did in the 90s. Looks play a big part, as does practicality and price. People need to feel there's a good reason to ditch the practicality of 5 doors for the 3 doors of a coupe.
I'm not convinced the "light weight, great handling" routine is going to work on a big proportion of the driving population and there doesn't appear to the practicality or looks (though this is obviously subjective) to drag people out of their Golf GTIs and 1 Series.
Overall, I'm not convinced by a car that doesn't have that much power, isn't that light, isn't that undertyred and isn't really that desirable (to me).
Dynamics don't necessarily sell coupes like these- look at how well the Calibra did in the 90s. Looks play a big part, as does practicality and price. People need to feel there's a good reason to ditch the practicality of 5 doors for the 3 doors of a coupe.
I'm not convinced the "light weight, great handling" routine is going to work on a big proportion of the driving population and there doesn't appear to the practicality or looks (though this is obviously subjective) to drag people out of their Golf GTIs and 1 Series.
Overall, I'm not convinced by a car that doesn't have that much power, isn't that light, isn't that undertyred and isn't really that desirable (to me).
LukeyLikey said:
...except that it's not guesswork.
You will always find some dealers doing well and others not. You have to look at the industry rather than use isolated examples. The retail motor industry when it's doing well makes about 2% on sales for new cars. When you consider the risk involved (most dealers are totally funded by the bank and 2% profit easily becomes a loss) you realise that car dealers for the most part have to put in a lot of work to make their businesses successful.
To make any money over the long term you have to give great service to your customers - in which case you deserve what you earn and your customers are getting good value.
Look at the sectors that attract heavy stock market investment - the retail motor industry is not among them.
Please point me in the direction of where you gained your percentages from?You will always find some dealers doing well and others not. You have to look at the industry rather than use isolated examples. The retail motor industry when it's doing well makes about 2% on sales for new cars. When you consider the risk involved (most dealers are totally funded by the bank and 2% profit easily becomes a loss) you realise that car dealers for the most part have to put in a lot of work to make their businesses successful.
To make any money over the long term you have to give great service to your customers - in which case you deserve what you earn and your customers are getting good value.
Look at the sectors that attract heavy stock market investment - the retail motor industry is not among them.
Sure, Vat is 20%, Duty maybe 10%, how have you come up with the other 10%, show me how you got to that?
Even if you do say its 40%, thats 40% on a price we dont know, unless you know what price UK dealers are paying Nissan HQ, even if they bought for Japan retail at £31k add 40% and its £43.5, UK list was £53K base, £10k+ minimum profit.
There wouldnt be a man in the world that would start a company at the possibility of making 2%. Yes, i know they make more on parts and make on servicing etc, but 2%
Sorry... short reply, am cooking dinner for wifey 
As for brief of being affordable, I think they've missed that one by a few grand. I don't think 25K is affordable with these specs. Again each to their own, but I think it's priced a little high, hence my (and other's) higher expectations.
Others will be happy with spending upwards of 25K for a nicely balanced chassis, but luke warm performance and that's fine. I hope these cars enlighten / indoctrinate more people to the joys of fun cars and I AM GLAD it exists....
What I'm pointing out (as have others), is that the game for many of us has moved on and while I personally hoped this car would be on my shopping list, as a potential buyer with cash, I'll now be looking elsewhere.
otolith said:
That's true, but - and this is just my personal view - I don't like the power delivery characteristics of turbocharged engines, and wouldn't want one in a car with sporting pretensions. You also have to ask what else would need to be changed to cope with more power and torque, and how far the resulting vicious spiral of adding weight would take the car from its original design brief of a light, pure, affordable car. I'm sure a lot of people would rather have a heavier, gruntier car, and would trade any amount of feel or delicacy for more acceleration, but such cars are already easy to come by. If you want a brutish Jap coupe, Nissan will oblige!
Fair point, power delivery & engine configuration will always be subjective. I like N/A... I own another car with an 6.2 LS3 and have owned a 245bhp Atom amongst others.... but these days, the game is changing. As has been said elsewhere, people want economy and are concerned by CO2, etc. Such things don't bother me, I want a package that works cohesively. I'm all for low weight, but it still needs some zip... not a lot more, just a useful amount more and with today's tech, plenty have proven it possible.As for brief of being affordable, I think they've missed that one by a few grand. I don't think 25K is affordable with these specs. Again each to their own, but I think it's priced a little high, hence my (and other's) higher expectations.
HighwayStar said:
So, is it for you, the real issue is the twins just aren't fast enough... Granted the Clio 172/197/200 is a whole other car and a lot of supposedly quick cars would struggle to live one on a back road... I know mine would but I've moved on from hot hatches. Diesels will also give a lot of cars a hard time but was he having as much fun behind the wheel chasing your misses down in her MX5? Was he feeling the edge, feedback through the seat, the steering? Doubtful... So I'm guessing in reality you don't want to be roasted by an oil burner whilst having some fun. Handling counts more than speed on a back road... My previous 205 1.9, Clio 16v or 306 GTi-6 would destroy my TTS on a back road.
If people aren't interested in Toyotabru now with more power and a bigger price tag... As has been said they're going to put their cash into something else.
Dinner's nearly ready now.... Qucikly.... All for fun & feedback, of course, but that's only part of the equasion. Again, I (as do many) want a more complete package. I will always make some allowancies on cars (we all compromise), but having had a car that was pretty, handled sweetly, but was ultimately too slow, means I don't want another that's as slow, but less pretty. If people aren't interested in Toyotabru now with more power and a bigger price tag... As has been said they're going to put their cash into something else.
Others will be happy with spending upwards of 25K for a nicely balanced chassis, but luke warm performance and that's fine. I hope these cars enlighten / indoctrinate more people to the joys of fun cars and I AM GLAD it exists....
What I'm pointing out (as have others), is that the game for many of us has moved on and while I personally hoped this car would be on my shopping list, as a potential buyer with cash, I'll now be looking elsewhere.
jetpilot said:
Please point me in the direction of where you gained your percentages from?
Sure, Vat is 20%, Duty maybe 10%, how have you come up with the other 10%, show me how you got to that?
Even if you do say its 40%, thats 40% on a price we dont know, unless you know what price UK dealers are paying Nissan HQ, even if they bought for Japan retail at £31k add 40% and its £43.5, UK list was £53K base, £10k+ minimum profit.
There wouldnt be a man in the world that would start a company at the possibility of making 2%. Yes, i know they make more on parts and make on servicing etc, but 2%
You are forgetting the overheads of the dealership... Staff wages, not all the staff are selling cars, workshop technicians, bonuses, utility bills. The profit from a sale, how ever much it is, isn't just money in the bank!!!Sure, Vat is 20%, Duty maybe 10%, how have you come up with the other 10%, show me how you got to that?
Even if you do say its 40%, thats 40% on a price we dont know, unless you know what price UK dealers are paying Nissan HQ, even if they bought for Japan retail at £31k add 40% and its £43.5, UK list was £53K base, £10k+ minimum profit.
There wouldnt be a man in the world that would start a company at the possibility of making 2%. Yes, i know they make more on parts and make on servicing etc, but 2%
And who pays list price? It all eats into the dealers margins.
Edited by HighwayStar on Wednesday 2nd May 19:07
356Speedster said:
Dinner's nearly ready now.... Qucikly.... All for fun & feedback, of course, but that's only part of the equasion. Again, I (as do many) want a more complete package. I will always make some allowancies on cars (we all compromise), but having had a car that was pretty, handled sweetly, but was ultimately too slow, means I don't want another that's as slow, but less pretty.
Others will be happy with spending upwards of 25K for a nicely balanced chassis, but luke warm performance and that's fine. I hope these cars enlighten / indoctrinate more people to the joys of fun cars and I AM GLAD it exists....
What I'm pointing out (as have others), is that the game for many of us has moved on and while I personally hoped this car would be on my shopping list, as a potential buyer with cash, I'll now be looking elsewhere.
Oh I definitely agree with that... Toyota want to inject some fun into the ranks of their able but ultimately souless range and roped in Subaru to help. I think they've misjudge/underestimated the quality of what's available around £25k and less. The Clio, DS3, Fiesta & Focus ST and if Pug get the 208 GTi right who knows. Yes they are fwd but seriously effective on the back roads, great steering and fab chassis. If Toyotabaru could've extracted another JUST another 20-30bhp + a bit more torque for no more money then we might have a completely different story here.Others will be happy with spending upwards of 25K for a nicely balanced chassis, but luke warm performance and that's fine. I hope these cars enlighten / indoctrinate more people to the joys of fun cars and I AM GLAD it exists....
What I'm pointing out (as have others), is that the game for many of us has moved on and while I personally hoped this car would be on my shopping list, as a potential buyer with cash, I'll now be looking elsewhere.
HighwayStar said:
You are forgetting the overheads of the dealership... Staff wages, not all the staff are selling cars, workshop technicians, bonuses, utility bills. The profit from a sale, how ever much it is, isn't just money in the bank!!!
And who pays list price? It all eats into the dealers margins.
No im not And who pays list price? It all eats into the dealers margins.
Edited by HighwayStar on Wednesday 2nd May 19:07
Whatever you want to say, no one would go into business with a 2% profit margin!
jetpilot said:
No im not
Whatever you want to say, no one would go into business with a 2% profit margin!
You said it yourself... 'yes I know they make more on parts and servicing.' Then there's finance... Years ago leading up to Ford and GM being on their butts, they were making no money on cars it was all on Ford and GM finance arms. Whatever you want to say, no one would go into business with a 2% profit margin!
Dealers are pushing Gap and car insurance, extended warranties, tyres, you name it. Parts can carry a 100% markup! Company cars users throwing their cars into the dealer for any work that needs doing without shopping around. That's the source of most dealers profits.
jetpilot said:
HighwayStar said:
You are forgetting the overheads of the dealership... Staff wages, not all the staff are selling cars, workshop technicians, bonuses, utility bills. The profit from a sale, how ever much it is, isn't just money in the bank!!!
And who pays list price? It all eats into the dealers margins.
No im not And who pays list price? It all eats into the dealers margins.
Edited by HighwayStar on Wednesday 2nd May 19:07
Whatever you want to say, no one would go into business with a 2% profit margin!
The investment from the owner to start the business is added to what the bank will loan him and that gets him started. In trading he has to pay staff from the margins he earns, after giving discounts and over allowing on a part exchange usually. The risk is high because it is very easy to make losses but these people are motor trade people and it is what they know. They're not bankers or accountants so what else do they do?
To give you an idea about the risk, if you sell a new car at £10,000, which is £8,000+VAT. His full margin is probably £800. Out of that he pays the salesman's commission and salary, his own overheads (rent, light, heat, rates, telephone etc.) discount to the customer, probably leaving him £200 to £300 depending on how many he sold that month, plus he buys the customer's part exchange at, say, £5k.
After the deal he pays the manufacturer £7,200 and receives £10,000 less VAT less part exchange (£3,000). Therefore he has to borrow a further £4,200 just to sell the customer a new car. This gives him an interest cost, also coming off the new car margin.
The vast majority of dealers sell new cars so they can service them where there is more margin.
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