RE: Time for Tea? BR-Z and GT-86 take on MX-5
Discussion
Olivera said:
As I've posted on this thread, I also can't understand the pricing:
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
I was trying to find you post earlier. I agree. http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
otolith said:
but is still based on a common VAG platform shared across a number of cars
Why is that a bad thing?? It means it's a proven, tried & tested product. I'd prefer that than a 1st gen platform, which has yet to have it's kinks worked out.otolith said:
This enables it to be built more cheaply than if it were built on a bespoke sports car platform, at the expense of it being less good.
To be honest you can spin it both ways. You can say it's "less good" (I'd like to see your stats to back up the pltform being poor in comparisson to another 
), or you can say it's optimised, which allows them to put cost elsewhere, like more expensive compenents, or even sell the car cheaper than the twins. There's no winning arguement there, really Ok... The problem isn't that VAG share platforms across each segment... It's how each mach decides to tune the chassis for the particular model it's based on. Cooking Sciroccos handle better than equivalent Golfs... The Leon is another that appears to have the edge over the Golf but perceived lower quality.
I'll be the first to told my hand up and say the TT isn't the sporty car it should be, I knew that when I bought it. Audi have tried, to give better balance to the car, except for boot floor, tailgate and doors, it is of aluminim construction. It is bigger but lighter than the MK1 but the handling still isn't quite there. I've got 4wd, 272bhp and 258lb torque but Audi have played it too safe with the tuning of the chassis/suspension. If, a big IF, got even close to the Boxster/Cayman no one would mention the platform sharing.
And now we have the Toyotabaru... A totally bespoke 2 door coupe, and people still aren't happy...it should have more power, better interior materials, more equipment, more tyre, bigger wheels they cry. I have all of that in my car, it's a lovely place to be in but it's not as much fun as my old French hot hatches. Just like the BRZ/GT 86 it appear... Building a back road razor is not that easy it appears. I suspect Toyotabaru are close though, 15/20% more for the engine room would probably do but would you pay more. Audi have way more work to do.
I'll be the first to told my hand up and say the TT isn't the sporty car it should be, I knew that when I bought it. Audi have tried, to give better balance to the car, except for boot floor, tailgate and doors, it is of aluminim construction. It is bigger but lighter than the MK1 but the handling still isn't quite there. I've got 4wd, 272bhp and 258lb torque but Audi have played it too safe with the tuning of the chassis/suspension. If, a big IF, got even close to the Boxster/Cayman no one would mention the platform sharing.
And now we have the Toyotabaru... A totally bespoke 2 door coupe, and people still aren't happy...it should have more power, better interior materials, more equipment, more tyre, bigger wheels they cry. I have all of that in my car, it's a lovely place to be in but it's not as much fun as my old French hot hatches. Just like the BRZ/GT 86 it appear... Building a back road razor is not that easy it appears. I suspect Toyotabaru are close though, 15/20% more for the engine room would probably do but would you pay more. Audi have way more work to do.
MX7 said:
Olivera said:
As I've posted on this thread, I also can't understand the pricing:
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
I was trying to find you post earlier. I agree. http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...
kambites said:
The TT may not be a "Golf in a frock" but it does do a remarkably good impression of one to drive. 
And I'm not at all convinced that the build quality of the TT is higher. From my experience of modern Audis and Toyotas, I'd bet on the opposite, in fact. I think the idea of "German quality" is several decades out of date.
I couldn't imagine spending 25k on a TT, but the GT86 is the first car that I've been even slightly tempted to buy new since I learned to drive.
Totally in the same boat as you actually (for once?). Looks like Autoebid claim to be able to get £1,500 off list too...And I'm not at all convinced that the build quality of the TT is higher. From my experience of modern Audis and Toyotas, I'd bet on the opposite, in fact. I think the idea of "German quality" is several decades out of date.
I couldn't imagine spending 25k on a TT, but the GT86 is the first car that I've been even slightly tempted to buy new since I learned to drive.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 2nd May 22:59
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 3rd May 11:43
356Speedster said:
otolith said:
but is still based on a common VAG platform shared across a number of cars
Why is that a bad thing?? It means it's a proven, tried & tested product. I'd prefer that than a 1st gen platform, which has yet to have it's kinks worked out.356Speedster said:
otolith said:
This enables it to be built more cheaply than if it were built on a bespoke sports car platform, at the expense of it being less good.
To be honest you can spin it both ways. You can say it's "less good" (I'd like to see your stats to back up the pltform being poor in comparisson to another ), or you can say it's optimised, which allows them to put cost elsewhere, like more expensive compenents, or even sell the car cheaper than the twins. There's no winning arguement there, really otolith said:
Because the priorities in developing the optimal platform for building a range of front wheel drive hatches, saloons and people carriers are not the same as the priorites for developing the optimal sporting coupe. Maximising interior space, for example, is much more important than mounting the engine low and far back.
But it does not mean that one is right at the expense of the other. What these 2 examples show is that there are compromises on both side and neither execution is perfect.otolith said:
Less good than what Audi would have built if they had been able to afford to develop a bespoke platform which didn't also need to accomodate family cars.
As there's no scientific measurment there, there's no point arguing. It will be interesting to see how the VAG group small sports car platform that they're working on does pan out tho'.... Can they prove they can make an engaging, affordable sporting car aimed at the likes of us? Let's hope so, because there's plenty of opinion and poor initial sales to suggest, Toyobaru have missed the mark. Certainly there is support (before anyone starts ranting), but it's not a big as many thought it would be and a lot of folks feel a bit let down by the finished product.otolith said:
Less good than what Audi would have built if they had been able to afford to develop a bespoke platform which didn't also need to accomodate family cars.
Totally agree that ideally the TT would be a better car with a bespoke platform, engine mounted lower and further behind the front wheels ala the Z4 but... VAG whole product strategy is based on platform sharing to maximise profits. VW make massive profits, £12.5 billion last year... It's not that Audi can't afford a bespoke platform for the TT, they choose not to. And that, for me, is the real shame. At the end of the day most people buy a car for it's looks and interior, proper handling is recognised by very few. BMW build drivers cars... If you want it it's there. Most Audi's you won't find it.IAJO said:
so the major complaint from day one is the lack of power, after watching this video the major complaint is still lack of power.
With great power comes greatresponsibility running costs. The person comparing a new GT86 to a second hand V8 Aston, are you real?
40mpg and fun. Forget equivelent priced cars that do 30mpg or 20mpg, 20mpg killed the rx8 a great car that sold well and goes for peanuts second hand because of 20mpg. Toyota could have used the v8 out of the isf and stuck huge wheels on it but its not cheap when your lighting up tyres that are £250 a corner in third gear whilst using fuel faster than you can earn the money to pay for it.
What you have here is a fun car to drive that doesnt cost the earth, it wont be for everybody and if you can afford the petrol a 370z will go through then great for you buy a 370z. Can afford to insure and replace parts on a cayman then go for it excellent car.
no doubt sti/trd devolopments are on the way which will increase power, after market tuners will get 400bhp all day and twice a day on weekends but it'll cost.
>power = >cost.
+1 With great power comes great
40mpg and fun. Forget equivelent priced cars that do 30mpg or 20mpg, 20mpg killed the rx8 a great car that sold well and goes for peanuts second hand because of 20mpg. Toyota could have used the v8 out of the isf and stuck huge wheels on it but its not cheap when your lighting up tyres that are £250 a corner in third gear whilst using fuel faster than you can earn the money to pay for it.
What you have here is a fun car to drive that doesnt cost the earth, it wont be for everybody and if you can afford the petrol a 370z will go through then great for you buy a 370z. Can afford to insure and replace parts on a cayman then go for it excellent car.
no doubt sti/trd devolopments are on the way which will increase power, after market tuners will get 400bhp all day and twice a day on weekends but it'll cost.
>power = >cost.
1Nathan said:
The only argument here should do I want a BRZ or a GT 86.
BRZ please. Toyota put the clothes on, Subaru did the rest. Actually, I've driven one overseas. EVO report is not really reflective but Paul Horrell in Top Gear is more accurate. When I drove it it was fantastic, one of the best driving real world cars in a long time.Ride was a bit too solid for me though.
356Speedster said:
But it does not mean that one is right at the expense of the other. What these 2 examples show is that there are compromises on both side and neither execution is perfect.
Should not be an issue of "right" or "wrong" but the original question posed was if the BRZ should be priced at 20K, then why should the entry level TT (even with its massive advantage in amortization via platform sharing) not likewise suffer a 4-5k hit in price? Is it really faster? No. More space? No. Better perceived quality? Yes. But that may be countered by possibly better reliability for the Toyobaru and certainly in terms of driving dynamics. I think, on the whole, it cannot really be argued that the Audi is objectively a better car by 20%. Factor in the relatively low production of the Subaru and that should hurt the Subaru's value-for-money quotient from the start.356Speedster said:
Can they prove they can make an engaging, affordable sporting car aimed at the likes of us? Let's hope so, because there's plenty of opinion and poor initial sales to suggest, Toyobaru have missed the mark. Certainly there is support (before anyone starts ranting), but it's not a big as many thought it would be and a lot of folks feel a bit let down by the finished product.
"Plenty of opinion"? Which review besides the Evo one suggest Subaru have missed the mark? There are multiple reviews, yes on public roads too as well as on track, which suggest BRZ deliver what it set out to do."A lot of folks"...considering the relatively low units coming to the UK, I'd say Subaru weren't necessarily trying to appeal to a lot of folks. Those low units might also cloud your resale guess when using "normal" Toyota/Subaru products as a benchmark.
Guibo, I'm terribly sorry, I'm not sure of the point your trying to make in your first paragraph, so I'll not risk misinterpreting anything.
To your second point about opinion, you only have to read this thread to see a lot of people are disapointed by the final product for a number of reasons. At the end of the day, the proof will be in retail sales, so time will tell.
As I've said many times, the car was on my potential next car list but the final product does meet my expectations, that's my choice as it is other people's. Am I glad this car exists? Of course I am, it's still a fun little car that will give many people enjoyment and proves that there are still some manufacturers out there willing to make something other than more damn hybrids! I hope it does sell and lead onto a wider model line (of which one might suit my / other's requirements) or inspire other companies to produce competitors...
To your second point about opinion, you only have to read this thread to see a lot of people are disapointed by the final product for a number of reasons. At the end of the day, the proof will be in retail sales, so time will tell.
As I've said many times, the car was on my potential next car list but the final product does meet my expectations, that's my choice as it is other people's. Am I glad this car exists? Of course I am, it's still a fun little car that will give many people enjoyment and proves that there are still some manufacturers out there willing to make something other than more damn hybrids! I hope it does sell and lead onto a wider model line (of which one might suit my / other's requirements) or inspire other companies to produce competitors...
356Speedster said:
Guibo, I'm terribly sorry, I'm not sure of the point your trying to make in your first paragraph, so I'll not risk misinterpreting anything.
To your second point about opinion, you only have to read this thread to see a lot of people are disapointed by the final product for a number of reasons. At the end of the day, the proof will be in retail sales, so time will tell.
The point in the first paragraph was that if the price of the BRZ deserves to be knocked down by 20+%, then an argument can be made that a similar discount should be applied to the entry level TT. After all, it hasn't proved itself to be the objectively better car overall. Your last sentence makes the case for the TT's price: it's priced that way because people buy it at that price. At the end of the day, if the BRZ proves to be overpriced, then Subaru will adjust prices accordingly. While some of us here can say we don't like it for this and that reason, none of us can really say (at this point) if the price isn't justified.To your second point about opinion, you only have to read this thread to see a lot of people are disapointed by the final product for a number of reasons. At the end of the day, the proof will be in retail sales, so time will tell.
As I said, Subaru don't seem to be aiming the car at "a lot of people." Is the 500 or so rumoured planned units for the UK a lot? I'm not sure it is. Porsche sold over 3200 sports cars in the UK last year, and those start at susbstantially higher prices.
As mentioned above, you seem to be pinning your entire viewpoint on *one single* test that is at odds with just about every other test out there (even from Evo's previous tests which were conducted with a manual transmission), and I've yet to see one of the 500 potential BRZ customers claim here that they've driven it and were disappointed. I mean, do you honestly think a BRZ is no better to drive than the Honda CR-Z tested by Evo which got an equal 3.5/5 rating? We're talking about a FWD hybrid with only 103 bhp/tonne (vs the BRZ's 160-ish) that takes 9.9s to get to 60 so isn't exactly a firecracker either.
Guibo said:
The point in the first paragraph was that if the price of the BRZ deserves to be knocked down by 20+%, then an argument can be made that a similar discount should be applied to the entry level TT. After all, it hasn't proved itself to be the objectively better car overall. Your last sentence makes the case for the TT's price: it's priced that way because people buy it at that price. At the end of the day, if the BRZ proves to be overpriced, then Subaru will adjust prices accordingly. While some of us here can say we don't like it for this and that reason, none of us can really say (at this point) if the price isn't justified.
As I said, Subaru don't seem to be aiming the car at "a lot of people." Is the 500 or so rumoured planned units for the UK a lot? I'm not sure it is. Porsche sold over 3200 sports cars in the UK last year, and those start at susbstantially higher prices.
As mentioned above, you seem to be pinning your entire viewpoint on *one single* test that is at odds with just about every other test out there (even from Evo's previous tests which were conducted with a manual transmission), and I've yet to see one of the 500 potential BRZ customers claim here that they've driven it and were disappointed. I mean, do you honestly think a BRZ is no better to drive than the Honda CR-Z tested by Evo which got an equal 3.5/5 rating? We're talking about a FWD hybrid with only 103 bhp/tonne (vs the BRZ's 160-ish) that takes 9.9s to get to 60 so isn't exactly a firecracker either.
Agree with the above entirely.As I said, Subaru don't seem to be aiming the car at "a lot of people." Is the 500 or so rumoured planned units for the UK a lot? I'm not sure it is. Porsche sold over 3200 sports cars in the UK last year, and those start at susbstantially higher prices.
As mentioned above, you seem to be pinning your entire viewpoint on *one single* test that is at odds with just about every other test out there (even from Evo's previous tests which were conducted with a manual transmission), and I've yet to see one of the 500 potential BRZ customers claim here that they've driven it and were disappointed. I mean, do you honestly think a BRZ is no better to drive than the Honda CR-Z tested by Evo which got an equal 3.5/5 rating? We're talking about a FWD hybrid with only 103 bhp/tonne (vs the BRZ's 160-ish) that takes 9.9s to get to 60 so isn't exactly a firecracker either.
Guibo said:
The point in the first paragraph was that if the price of the BRZ deserves to be knocked down by 20+%, then an argument can be made that a similar discount should be applied to the entry level TT. After all, it hasn't proved itself to be the objectively better car overall. Your last sentence makes the case for the TT's price: it's priced that way because people buy it at that price. At the end of the day, if the BRZ proves to be overpriced, then Subaru will adjust prices accordingly. While some of us here can say we don't like it for this and that reason, none of us can really say (at this point) if the price isn't justified.
As I said, Subaru don't seem to be aiming the car at "a lot of people." Is the 500 or so rumoured planned units for the UK a lot? I'm not sure it is. Porsche sold over 3200 sports cars in the UK last year, and those start at susbstantially higher prices.
As mentioned above, you seem to be pinning your entire viewpoint on *one single* test that is at odds with just about every other test out there (even from Evo's previous tests which were conducted with a manual transmission), and I've yet to see one of the 500 potential BRZ customers claim here that they've driven it and were disappointed. I mean, do you honestly think a BRZ is no better to drive than the Honda CR-Z tested by Evo which got an equal 3.5/5 rating? We're talking about a FWD hybrid with only 103 bhp/tonne (vs the BRZ's 160-ish) that takes 9.9s to get to 60 so isn't exactly a firecracker either.
I see where you're coming from now! However, it's never going to be that straightforward is it. We all judge perceived value differently, which is why (seeing as you bring them up), Porsche make huge margins on their cars. There's little complaint that a 911 should be significantly cheaper despite the significant unit margins they make (assuming the reports are true of course). If the twins really do only manage the sort of volumes currently anticipated, then sure anyone has a right to ask why, if they're meant to be so good?As I said, Subaru don't seem to be aiming the car at "a lot of people." Is the 500 or so rumoured planned units for the UK a lot? I'm not sure it is. Porsche sold over 3200 sports cars in the UK last year, and those start at susbstantially higher prices.
As mentioned above, you seem to be pinning your entire viewpoint on *one single* test that is at odds with just about every other test out there (even from Evo's previous tests which were conducted with a manual transmission), and I've yet to see one of the 500 potential BRZ customers claim here that they've driven it and were disappointed. I mean, do you honestly think a BRZ is no better to drive than the Honda CR-Z tested by Evo which got an equal 3.5/5 rating? We're talking about a FWD hybrid with only 103 bhp/tonne (vs the BRZ's 160-ish) that takes 9.9s to get to 60 so isn't exactly a firecracker either.
Regarding dissapointment... as I've said many times, I've felt indifferent about the inside & out styling from day one, BUT was always prepared to wait for more information about the car's performance to make a decision as to whether I want one on my drive or not. This video & the specs posted by Toyota on their website have made up my mind. It's just not quick enough. To see the twins against a car we used to own (MX5) is as good a yardstick as you can get. While the Mazda's chassis entertained (clearly the twin's will too, I've always praised that), it's pace annoyed. I will not pay £27K+ (it'd need metalic & leather to lift appearances) for a coupe equivilent to the Mazda, that I know will frustrate me. Have a run thru' the PH forums to find plenty more people of a similar opinion. And no, I've read evo's review, but I will.
Will I be missing out on a car with a sweet chassis? Yes, clearly, but as I've said, that's the only positive of this car for me. If it had a little more poke, I could have gotten over the styling and it might have remained on my list.
wemorgan said:
Remember that the soft top MX5 2.0 is £21.5k or £23k for the folding hard-top.
But all new cars look expensive to me these days - guess I get tighter as I get older.
A point worth noting is that you can buy a brand new, unregistered MX-5 soft top with the 2.0 engine for £15,329 from drive the deal. This isn't the top spec sport tech which has the 6 speed box and a few other additions but it does have the LSD, the same engine and comes with decent spec as standard. But all new cars look expensive to me these days - guess I get tighter as I get older.
A sport tech will set you back £16,582.
I think it unlikely that Toyota or Subaru will be offering any sort of discount on their cars at least to start with.
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