BRZ gets a thrashing

Author
Discussion

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
s m said:
GravelBen said:
The whole 'low grip' thing is an interesting one, its funny how perspectives change - even just in terms of tyre size the 215/45R17 which seem to be considered narrow now are the same size as my 280bhp Legacy had from the factory, and were probably thought to be fairly wide at the time
With you on that one Ben

205s were standard fitment on the E30 M3, Sierra Cosworth, Merc 190 2.3/2.5-16s - all fat tyred Cafe racers.

Trouble is with todays suspension/tyre technology, 215s are just too wide for lots of adjustability and they've had to bow to DRG/showroom appeal and fashion
I agree. It's not that the BRZ is undertyred, it's that many modern cars are stupidly overtyred. 205 is not a narrow tyre for a 1200kg performance car, yet journos and their disciples have merrily accepted what the marketing men have spat out out them to the contrary.

There's no way on earth a BRZ on 205s should feel 'skittish' due to the tyre widths being 'narrow'. Absolute nonsense.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
The Evo review is critical that the tyres have too much grip on the road to make the car the tail happy monster they hoped for, while at the same time sticking the boot into it for not having enough grip on the track. I'm not sure what they were expecting.

ArosaMike

4,192 posts

210 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
I think the argument from some here that the auto box is killing the fun here is a none starter. 5,6,7 years ago, maybe, but torque converter auto's are a very different beast now. They now mechanically lock out the torque converter from 2nd or 3rd and in many respects are better than DSG. Yes, a dual clutch transmission ultimately shifts faster, but we're talking 0.1 instead of 0.2s only without any of the low speed refinement that a torque converter offers. I'd wager that there's very little difference in performance if any between the manual and auto BRZ. You only have to look at the lap trace in EVO to see that the acceleration is pretty much uninteruppted despite the gear changes. I was as sceptical as anyone else on here about 'slush boxes' until I drove the new generation of 7 speed plus ones.

As for the BRZ's handling, the main gripes EVO seemed to have we're the fact that it seemed to lack any natural RWD feel. John Barkers overriding opinion in the video was that it just didn't feel RWD until you managed to get it to oversteer. Even then, it wasn't until he had his foot mashed to the carpet that you could tell it was pushing rather than pulling.

I think a large amount of this probably is down to the tyres. It's great to see a manufacturer buck the trend and fit a low grip economy tyre to try and liven things up a bit. I can however see problems with this which I've experienced first had when I did the Caterham Academy in '10. I don't think you can really get more similar in comparison to the BRZ. It's pretty much half the weight and half the power of the Subaru and had Avon CR322s on it....a tyre designed primarily to be fitted to Ford Connect vans! Now where an I going with this? Well....the thing that surprised me most was just how much straight line grip they had. I would wager that the braking performance is probably within a few meters of the CR500s on the car now. But then this makes sense. A tyre still needs to stop a car well, even if it's supposed to be low rolling resistance. Where the difference was however was when it came to corners. Whilst grip levels were surprisingly good, there was just no balance. Both ends felt out of phase and the margin between grip and slip was tiny. Turn in and all you got was understeer. Turn in on the brakes and you got slightly less understeer. Power on and more understeer! If you really chucked it in, it would eventually and reluctantly move in to oversteer, but as soon as it did, it wouldn't have the power to keep it going as the longitudinal grip would overcome the engine. It hardly ever felt truly RWD!

I'd be interested to see therefore, someone try the car on more sports orientated rubber. Whilst it may have slightly more grip, I do wonder whether the indrease initial bite will help liven things up a bit. Ultimately, the Primacy's were never designed as a performance tyre and their construction will reflect this. I think EVO's review is pretty honest. I hope Subaru listen to it and perhaps try a few things....it's not like they haven't in the past with the Impreza....

10 Pence Short

32,880 posts

216 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
I would say the issue is more likely to be the manufacturer setting the cars up for an understeer balance, having seen the (unnecessary) slating the S2000 got for being tail happy. Driving rear wheel drive cars with a purposeful nod towards the driven wheels is not a common skill these days, so they'd be afraid of creating too much of a monster.

MC Bodge

21,551 posts

174 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
10 Pence Short said:
I would say the issue is more likely to be the manufacturer setting the cars up for an understeer balance, having seen the (unnecessary) slating the S2000 got for being tail happy. Driving rear wheel drive cars with a purposeful nod towards the driven wheels is not a common skill these days, so they'd be afraid of creating too much of a monster.
There is possibly something in that.

Unless somebody is used to riding a(n non-traction-controlled) motorbike, they're probably not that familiar with being respectful of rear wheel drive.



On the subject of this car, let's not forget that most people don't know or care much about cars or driving. Very few people would actively seek out a good road driving experience and very few people seem to realise that engines can be revved beyond about 3000rpm.

Most people are more interested in how the car looks, what they think the badge says about them and possibly(?) in knowing that it can be 'fast' on a test track (this may only be of interest to pub Top Trumps enthusiasts though).

An Audi TT/Scirocco diesel probably auto fits the bill for a non-enthusiast looking for a "coupé".

Personally, I'd like one of these Subaru/Toyota coupés as a project car in a few years time in the way that I'd like a Mk1/2 MX5 now.

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 7th May 15:35

marcosgt

11,011 posts

175 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
ArosaMike said:
I think the argument from some here that the auto box is killing the fun here is a none starter. 5,6,7 years ago, maybe, but torque converter auto's are a very different beast now...
Listen carefully - At at least one point you can hear the BRZ bog down after he 'changes'.

Unless the driver's a hamfisted cretin or deliberately trying to make the Subaru look bad, the auto box is ruining the fun.

M.

thiscocks

3,127 posts

194 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
Fwd car beats 3 rwd sports car shock. Should quieten the 'fwd-wrong wheel drive' brigade.

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
MC Bodge said:
Personally, I'd like one of these Subaru/Toyota coupés as a project car in a few years time in the way that I'd like a Mk1/2 MX5 now.
This is something else I've been thinking of: Whether the Toyabaru proves to be a driver's wet dream or not, one thing I do know for certain is that in the UK, if they sell well, an entire industry will spring up offering substandard tat and junk which when bolted on will spoil almost every one of them.

Rock hard springs, heavy wheels and mega wide Nankangs here we come! smile

vz-r_dave

3,469 posts

217 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
thiscocks said:
Fwd car beats 3 rwd sports car shock. Should quieten the 'fwd-wrong wheel drive' brigade.
Yeah I think the likes of Porsche, Ferrari etc will soon be shifting to FWD with reviews like this. It is obvious that they have had it all wrong from the very start.

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
vz-r_dave said:
Yeah I think the likes of Porsche, Ferrari etc will soon be shifting to FWD with reviews like this. It is obvious that they have had it all wrong from the very start.
Yeah, and Porsche and ferrari make cars to compete with Renaults.

In the same regard though, at Shelsley Walsh yesterday there were a couple of old tuned Minis, sliding at both ends, creaming the majority of the Lotus Elises that were taking part.

Whilst I've no doubt that the Elise drivers were having more fun whilst basking in their fulsome steering feel and utter driving godness of rwd, I'm still not sure it can be satisfying to be beaten by shopping cars from 1959. smile



thiscocks

3,127 posts

194 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
vz-r_dave said:
thiscocks said:
Fwd car beats 3 rwd sports car shock. Should quieten the 'fwd-wrong wheel drive' brigade.
Yeah I think the likes of Porsche, Ferrari etc will soon be shifting to FWD with reviews like this. It is obvious that they have had it all wrong from the very start.
Which of their models are 25k?

Grovsie26

1,302 posts

166 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
thiscocks said:
Which of their models are 25k?
That would be 25k of extra's like straps for door handles, carbon brakes, and other complete horse st thats not needed by most buyers.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
thiscocks said:
Fwd car beats 3 rwd sports car shock. Should quieten the 'fwd-wrong wheel drive' brigade.
Yes - also anyone who thinks that independent suspension, low centre of gravity, front:rear weight distribution, natural aspiration or indeed in the case of the 370Z, an extra couple of cylinders are important. Those engineers at Toyota and Subaru must be gutted, all that hard work when all they really needed to do was to pimp up an Auris. I can see that this validates the VW view that all the world needs is one front wheel drive platform for any kind of car, and surely BMW must be reappraising their commitment to rear drive, multilink rear suspension and 50:50 weight distribution. Just make sure that it oversteers if you lift off mid bend and the chaps at Evo will love it.

vz-r_dave

3,469 posts

217 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
Yeah fair enough on the 25K part, you cant take away what an achievement the Renault is in that respect.

Grovsie26

1,302 posts

166 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
if it had the engine and box out of a Honda K20 it would be awesome. biggrin

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
otolith said:
Yes - also anyone who thinks that independent suspension, low centre of gravity, front:rear weight distribution, natural aspiration or indeed in the case of the 370Z, an extra couple of cylinders are important. Those engineers at Toyota and Subaru must be gutted, all that hard work when all they really needed to do was to pimp up an Auris. I can see that this validates the VW view that all the world needs is one front wheel drive platform for any kind of car, and surely BMW must be reappraising their commitment to rear drive, multilink rear suspension and 50:50 weight distribution. Just make sure that it oversteers if you lift off mid bend and the chaps at Evo will love it.
You can say whatever you like, the fact is that on that EVO test the very best car there was fwd, and it was better at every level too it seemed, when it came to driving pleasure.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and not in the ingredients.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
vz-r_dave said:
Yeah fair enough on the 25K part, you cant take away what an achievement the Renault is in that respect.
Not sure that I buy the value/achievement for money angle on the Renault, it's a sub-17k car rolled in glitter.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
You can say whatever you like, the fact is that on that EVO test the very best car there was fwd, and it was better at every level too it seemed, when it came to driving pleasure.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and not in the ingredients.
So you would agree that all those engineering considerations are an irrelevance, and that all one needs is a nose heavy family hatch with a turbocharged four and a torsion beam rear end?

Selling your Porsche then?

Personally, I don't give a stuff what Evo think, I would take any of those alternatives over a hot hatch. Been there, done that, bored of them.

dom180

1,180 posts

263 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
otolith said:
The Evo review is critical that the tyres have too much grip on the road to make the car the tail happy monster they hoped for, while at the same time sticking the boot into it for not having enough grip on the track. I'm not sure what they were expecting.
I think the point is on the road, your entry speeds are lower/linked to visibility so there's not enough power to make it oversteer at will unless you have a clear and open bend. More powerful cars don't have this issue as you can boot them post apex to get some oversteer. On the track they're simply comparing its limits to the Megane and finding them lower...

Hopefully the GT-86 is tuned for a little more oversteer given its softer spring rates but I assume the same factors will apply.

I often wonder how the M100 Elan would have turned out if Lotus hadn't played it conservative with the chassis setup, having spun a 205 GTI on the road during benchmarking/development....

Doesn't surprise me re FWD/minis on hillclimbs as predictability is all given there's no run-off.

The Megane sounds like a good bit of kit with a good grip/grunt ratio.

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
otolith said:
So you would agree that all those engineering considerations are an irrelevance, and that all one needs is a nose heavy family hatch with a turbocharged four and a torsion beam rear end?

Selling your Porsche then?

Personally, I don't give a stuff what Evo think, I would take any of those alternatives over a hot hatch. Been there, done that, bored of them.
Yes, me too to a great degree. Hot hatches are too one-dimensional to me because all they offer in reality is the ability to go at warp-factor 9 and not much else.

However that doesn't change the fact that they are bloody good fun and bloody quick on the type of roads that I like to drive, quicker with less power than my Porsche very often, I'd wager.

It's the imbalance that makes them such fun and so wieldy and responsive to the right foot, imo. Most rwds aren't as wieldy simply because of the balance and grip they offer, and you couldn't get a better example than my Porsche tbh, which offers so much grip that it needs far more power to make it a proper driver's car in my book.

Luckily the Porsche offers a lot more than just B-road tomfoolery, otherwise I would sell it.

So yes, to a very great degree, all the heritage of Porsche, and the wish bones and mid engine and flat-6 are pretty much an irrelevance if it can be whupped by "a nose heavy family hatch with a turbocharged four and a torsion beam rear end".