RE: Ferrari recalls V8 engines...
Discussion
Just to put the tooling debate to bed.
A milling machine has historically been a linear action tool where the material is moved relative to a stationary cutting head.
The term now generally includes universal milling machines, which also allow the material to be rotated.
The main manufacturing process for a typical performance crank is tomachined from solid, not using a milling machine, but a CNC lathe. The journals are then ground to achieve the desired finish and the corners are fillet rolled. Additional features like holes and keyways are then added in a CNC milling machine. The whole thing then gets balanced in an automated cell which uses a CNC milling machine to add lightening holes to the balance weights.
There are lots of reasons that only 206 cranks will be affected, we can only guess at the cause. It's a testament to the quality of Ferraris tracking procedures that they can be so definite that it has only affected that small number of engines.
A milling machine has historically been a linear action tool where the material is moved relative to a stationary cutting head.
The term now generally includes universal milling machines, which also allow the material to be rotated.
The main manufacturing process for a typical performance crank is tomachined from solid, not using a milling machine, but a CNC lathe. The journals are then ground to achieve the desired finish and the corners are fillet rolled. Additional features like holes and keyways are then added in a CNC milling machine. The whole thing then gets balanced in an automated cell which uses a CNC milling machine to add lightening holes to the balance weights.
There are lots of reasons that only 206 cranks will be affected, we can only guess at the cause. It's a testament to the quality of Ferraris tracking procedures that they can be so definite that it has only affected that small number of engines.
In the good 'ole days, crankshafts would be made on a lathe, mill, and then a grinding machine. These days, maching centres, with CNC control are used. There are usually two maching processes. The first is done with the steel in its 'raw' machinable state, bringing it to almost finished size and state. It then goes through a hardeneing and tempering proccess. Top quality cranks are made from NiCroMoly EN30B steel. When this is completed, the bearing surfaces are ground to the finished sizes. Most CNC machines self check the finished size. I suspect, from the vague description of the fault, that the fillet radius at the end of the bearing surfaces maybe to sharp, thus increasing the stress concentration value, with a decrease in the fatigue life of the crankshaft. This radius is formed by the grinding wheel profile, if this was not done correctly, the wrong fillet radius is imparted to the crankshaft.
Dave Hedgehog said:
I would not be happy having an engine repaired if I had just spent 200k on a car
You'd rather stick with the out-of-tolerance engine? 
The job they're going to do in a dealer is going to be as good as the assembly job in the factory (better in this case) so I don't really see the problem. Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, Ferrari engines don't descend from the heavens only to be humbly repaired by a bloke at the local dealership- an engine (and indeed a Ferrari) is a piece of mechanical engineering, and will be worked upon by trained technicians at the factory, and at the dealer.
In terms of the machines at the factory going out of tolerance, yes there should be checks in place to try and prevent it happening, but sometimes it will be unavoidable. A fault with the machine could see the tolerance slip more than it is reasonable to expect, and even if you calibrate it before each and every engine, there's a chance of it going out of tolerance. You could have increased measurement/inspection afterwards, but once you add checks beyond a reasonable level, you're adding cost without adding value to 99.99999% of cars. The decision at some point has to be made on whether the value added will justify the cost.
Perhaps Ferrari have got the balance wrong, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions without seeing the processes/sums.
Twincharged said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
I would not be happy having an engine repaired if I had just spent 200k on a car
You'd rather stick with the out-of-tolerance engine? The job they're going to do in a dealer is going to be as good as the assembly job in the factory (better in this case) so I don't really see the problem. Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, Ferrari engines don't descend from the heavens only to be humbly repaired by a bloke at the local dealership- an engine (and indeed a Ferrari) is a piece of mechanical engineering, and will be worked upon by trained technicians at the factory, and at the dealer.
In terms of the machines at the factory going out of tolerance, yes there should be checks in place to try and prevent it happening, but sometimes it will be unavoidable. A fault with the machine could see the tolerance slip more than it is reasonable to expect, and even if you calibrate it before each and every engine, there's a chance of it going out of tolerance. You could have increased measurement/inspection afterwards, but once you add checks beyond a reasonable level, you're adding cost without adding value to 99.99999% of cars. The decision at some point has to be made on whether the value added will justify the cost.
Perhaps Ferrari have got the balance wrong, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions without seeing the processes/sums.
If you were going to hand back a car just because it had a known flaw, you'll never keep any car for more than a few months. At least they're fixing it for free, which is more than most manufacturers seem to do unless they think it's likely to fail in warranty and cost more to repair than the cost of pre-emptive replacement.
EDLT said:
toppstuff said:
I have to say it, but if this was McLaren I think PH would have people here rubbing their chin and wondering, sagely, if Ron had lost it and how the McLaren control mechanism had failed.
But because it's Ferrari, people forgive them.
Maybe it's just me. Much as I love Ferrari ( and, rather unfashionably, I would take a black California over a 458 every day) I still cannot forget that they are made in Italy by Italians. A decade of driving Alfa Romeos' has taught me that "passion" is often a euphemism for "lack of attention"...
IMO of course..
I was thinking the same thing.But because it's Ferrari, people forgive them.
Maybe it's just me. Much as I love Ferrari ( and, rather unfashionably, I would take a black California over a 458 every day) I still cannot forget that they are made in Italy by Italians. A decade of driving Alfa Romeos' has taught me that "passion" is often a euphemism for "lack of attention"...
IMO of course..
How many crankshafts do they make per day? To churn out "only" 206 before noticing the machine isn't set up properly is a bit
I don't want to be rude or impolite, but it seems really unfair the above comment.
A factory know in all the world for the wonderful machines they produce made a mistake on 206 out of 13000 engines (0.159% margin) and they recalled immediately sorting the problem at no expense for the customer and no reported failures.
Just for comparison McLaren (that I admire) since last year had produced less than a hundred F1's, that's hardly a mass-production vehicle hence no reported failures, since they started producing the 12C I distinctly recall a problem with the IRIS that has been sorted only recently. There's plenty of literature on famous failures that has been ignored/lately addressed by the famous and precise germans (Porsche IMS, BMW S54 crank bearings and 320d's turbo....).
Accusing an italian factory of working bad just because it's italian and it's a cliché.....well it's stupid and only half telling the truth.
Sorry for the rant,
Enrico
A crank related problem occurred back in 1999-2000 on some of the 360 Modenas. Back then it was the tolerances of the crankshaft big end bearings that were out.
This was never an official recall, some engines popped and the dealers knew of the problem and ferrari Spa had there fingers crossed. Although Ferrari did rebuild the engines of the engines that let go at there own expense.
At least now they are standing up to be counted.
This was never an official recall, some engines popped and the dealers knew of the problem and ferrari Spa had there fingers crossed. Although Ferrari did rebuild the engines of the engines that let go at there own expense.
At least now they are standing up to be counted.
As the cranks are presumably the wrong size - or they wouldn't need to replace them - how did they get through a QA system? After all modern technology, which no doubt Ferrari will have (or if they don't they should have!), does all that sort of stuff very precisely and quickly. The only conclusion that I can make is that they didn't inspect them properly for some reason which then begs the inevitably question as to what else haven't they checked and whether the owners will pay for those to be fixed without being told it was really Ferraris mistake - OK I know its only a low % but its there and the crank is one of the most critical sized items in the engine.
Jim
Jim
cookie1600 said:
mat777 said:
the shaft is milled first, then the bits that rotate in contact with bearings and big ends are ground perfectly circular.
Or not in the case of 206 engines??????tbc said:
mrclav said:
tbc said:
to be fair to Ferrari they have admitted the problem and are putting it right, and it;s hardly any hassle
I doubt anyone drives their Ferrari to work 5 days a week
although it could be worse
Vauxhall are still refusing to admit a fault with the Insignia which causes the front end to catch fire
and some poor sales rep going out in a blaze of glory
A bloke I know who lives 5 mins away from me drives his to work 5 times a week - I see him sitting in morning traffic every week-day morning!I doubt anyone drives their Ferrari to work 5 days a week
although it could be worse
Vauxhall are still refusing to admit a fault with the Insignia which causes the front end to catch fire
and some poor sales rep going out in a blaze of glory
If you can afford a Ferrari then have a nice practical car and maybe take the prancing horse out a few days a week for a rake.
Although maybe the chap commuting in the Ferrari is doing so to save his really nice cars for the weekend?
I would not be happy with a faulty crank subsequent replacement in any new car, let alone a model with the performance characteristics and list price of this one. If the crank is out of tolerance then there are likely consequences and resulting damage or uneven wear characteristics on bearings. It would be a new engine for me or I wouldn't want the car.
mwstewart said:
I would not be happy with a faulty crank subsequent replacement in any new car, let alone a model with the performance characteristics and list price of this one. If the crank is out of tolerance then there are likely consequences and resulting damage or uneven wear characteristics on bearings. It would be a new engine for me or I wouldn't want the car.
Ridiculous, and legally you wouldn't get very far with that argument.Its nothing more than a minor irritation for a rational and logical human being
CBR JGWRR said:
y2blade said:
They are handling the same sort of thing better than some...........
BMW S1000RR UK forum:
http://www.s1000rrforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=...
BMW S1000RR USA forum:
http://www.s1000rrforum.com/forum/bmw-s1000rr-gene...
I was debating putting that up myself. BMW S1000RR UK forum:
http://www.s1000rrforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=...
BMW S1000RR USA forum:
http://www.s1000rrforum.com/forum/bmw-s1000rr-gene...
Edited by y2blade on Tuesday 8th May 21:48
kambites said:
Surely if they're replacing the crank shaft, they'll replace the bearings anyway?
Dealers don't always work like that though. Years ago when my E46 M3 went back for the bearing shell recall that afflicted pre-2003 models, BMW weren't even going to replace the oil and filter! If Ferrari aren't supplying engines to swap then why would they bother swapping the bearings?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff