RE: Driven: Jaguar XJ Supersport Speed Pack
Discussion
toppstuff said:
Not at all. But I think its perfectly patriotic to support a company that provides employment to tens of thousands of families across the UK.
Trotting out the old "but their Indian" routine is not only obvious ( after all, it is hardly a revelation, every one knows it) but it is also an oversimplification.
And it's not about Jaguar. It applies equally to Land Rover, or Nissan, or Honda for example - all of whom make a significant difference to the Uk economy.
Rather than have a negative attitude, we should see the positive. A LOT of people would be in the crapper if Tata had not come in and poured in their billions.
You don't hear people complaining about Ford or Vauxhall being American do you, so why raise the issue here?
Welcome to the global community. It's the way things are now.
No one would describe Ford or Vauxhall as "patriotic" though.Trotting out the old "but their Indian" routine is not only obvious ( after all, it is hardly a revelation, every one knows it) but it is also an oversimplification.
And it's not about Jaguar. It applies equally to Land Rover, or Nissan, or Honda for example - all of whom make a significant difference to the Uk economy.
Rather than have a negative attitude, we should see the positive. A LOT of people would be in the crapper if Tata had not come in and poured in their billions.
You don't hear people complaining about Ford or Vauxhall being American do you, so why raise the issue here?
Welcome to the global community. It's the way things are now.
Edited by toppstuff on Friday 11th May 10:10
Face it, Jaguar is now as British as Honda, or Nissan.
We really need to sort ourselves out actually. It is a humilliation that we no longer make cars (well, we might make them, but the money goes to other countries), ships, trains, trucks, aeroplanes, etc., etc., etc. If we put our minds to it, I know we can do it again.
Edited by FrankyH on Friday 11th May 17:19
Edited by FrankyH on Friday 11th May 17:24
Exactly, look at all those foreign owned car companies taking all the money and not leaving any of it for us in the the UK where they're designed, developed, built and exported from.
Rolls-Royce Motor Cars
Bentley
Aston Martin
Lotus
Landrover
Jaguar
MINI
Nissan
Ford
Vauxhall
And a few others I've no doubt forgotten
Bloody disgrace if you ask me. I mean look at how good the UK was at it before Johny bloody Foreigner came in.
In other news; "Britain's economy thought to be held back primarily by the 1970's attitudes amongst the great unwashed towards life and the world in general"
Rolls-Royce Motor Cars
Bentley
Aston Martin
Lotus
Landrover
Jaguar
MINI
Nissan
Ford
Vauxhall
And a few others I've no doubt forgotten
Bloody disgrace if you ask me. I mean look at how good the UK was at it before Johny bloody Foreigner came in.
In other news; "Britain's economy thought to be held back primarily by the 1970's attitudes amongst the great unwashed towards life and the world in general"
Wonderful looking car IMO. Love the colour too, but then I am biassed I suppose as mine's a similar shade!
I remember when this shape XJ originally came out they said they weren't doing an R, as they didn't think it fitted with the image of the car or something. Suprising really, as there seem to be plenty of last shape Rs in the classifieds that some of the first road going Jaguar Rs were XJs!
I remember when this shape XJ originally came out they said they weren't doing an R, as they didn't think it fitted with the image of the car or something. Suprising really, as there seem to be plenty of last shape Rs in the classifieds that some of the first road going Jaguar Rs were XJs!
toppstuff said:
JulesB said:
Dont go there, these are die hard fans 
Not at all. But I think its perfectly patriotic to support a company that provides employment to tens of thousands of families across the UK.Trotting out the old "but their Indian" routine is not only obvious ( after all, it is hardly a revelation, every one knows it) but it is also an oversimplification.
And it's not about Jaguar. It applies equally to Land Rover, or Nissan, or Honda for example - all of whom make a significant difference to the Uk economy.
Rather than have a negative attitude, we should see the positive. A LOT of people would be in the crapper if Tata had not come in and poured in their billions.
You don't hear people complaining about Ford or Vauxhall being American do you, so why raise the issue here?
Welcome to the global community. It's the way things are now.
Edited by toppstuff on Friday 11th May 10:10
And apart from that and back to the initial subject: This new XJ is just a fabulous car and THE BEST IN THE CLASS by far imo. THANK YOU to the "Indians" and everybody else involved to make this terrific machine possible!!! THANK YOU AGAIN !!!
Edited by vintageracer01 on Saturday 12th May 22:53
FrankyH said:
No one would describe Ford or Vauxhall as "patriotic" though.
Face it, Jaguar is now as British as Honda, or Nissan.
We really need to sort ourselves out actually. It is a humilliation that we no longer make cars (well, we might make them, but the money goes to other countries), ships, trains, trucks, aeroplanes, etc., etc., etc. If we put our minds to it, I know we can do it again.
Companies change hands all the time. It's the way the world works nowadays.Face it, Jaguar is now as British as Honda, or Nissan.
We really need to sort ourselves out actually. It is a humilliation that we no longer make cars (well, we might make them, but the money goes to other countries), ships, trains, trucks, aeroplanes, etc., etc., etc. If we put our minds to it, I know we can do it again.
German shipbuilders Blohm und Voss are currently being acquired by a British Investment company, if that helps your nationalistic pride.
It wasn't so long ago that Ford owned quite a few UK car manufacturers with little creative effect.
Fortunately Tata appear to have the foresight to understand the value of the JLR brand and skilled British design/manufacturing.
They have invested heavily and the results speak for themselves.
ess said:
FrankyH said:
No one would describe Ford or Vauxhall as "patriotic" though.
Face it, Jaguar is now as British as Honda, or Nissan.
We really need to sort ourselves out actually. It is a humilliation that we no longer make cars (well, we might make them, but the money goes to other countries), ships, trains, trucks, aeroplanes, etc., etc., etc. If we put our minds to it, I know we can do it again.
Companies change hands all the time. It's the way the world works nowadays.Face it, Jaguar is now as British as Honda, or Nissan.
We really need to sort ourselves out actually. It is a humilliation that we no longer make cars (well, we might make them, but the money goes to other countries), ships, trains, trucks, aeroplanes, etc., etc., etc. If we put our minds to it, I know we can do it again.
German shipbuilders Blohm und Voss are currently being acquired by a British Investment company, if that helps your nationalistic pride.
It wasn't so long ago that Ford owned quite a few UK car manufacturers with little creative effect.
Fortunately Tata appear to have the foresight to understand the value of the JLR brand and skilled British design/manufacturing.
They have invested heavily and the results speak for themselves.
A wag might suggest that most of the money that made Britain great in the first place came from India anyway, so this is nothing new.
davepoth said:
And if you follow the trail of many companies, regardless of the country they're domiciled in , you'll find ownership is rather more cosmopolitan than you might imagine. Tata have done exactly what they needed to do with JLR - walked in, told them to make decent cars, given them some money to do it, and stood back.
A wag might suggest that most of the money that made Britain great in the first place came from India anyway, so this is nothing new.
Dress it up any way you want, but giving your money to Indians is not "patriotic".A wag might suggest that most of the money that made Britain great in the first place came from India anyway, so this is nothing new.
And Britain not making pretty much anything is a humiliation.
We have to sort our country out. We can be great again, but it is going to take all of our people to make an effort, instead of just sitting back and accepting any humiliation.
FrankyH said:
Dress it up any way you want, but giving your money to Indians is not "patriotic".
And Britain not making pretty much anything is a humiliation.
We have to sort our country out. We can be great again, but it is going to take all of our people to make an effort, instead of just sitting back and accepting any humiliation.
You need to read more. And Britain not making pretty much anything is a humiliation.
We have to sort our country out. We can be great again, but it is going to take all of our people to make an effort, instead of just sitting back and accepting any humiliation.
Understand the origins of empire, the inevitable rise and fall that they all go through. The movement of labour markets around the world. The demographic drivers behind the rise of the BRIC economies. The inevitable, inexorable process of growth, stagnation, decline and rebirth. Britain is never going to repeat its history. It does not have the people, it does not have the resources and the geo-political map has changed. A couple of world wars and the demise of empire have seen to that.
Britains role in the future is all about ideas. IP. Innovation. License and design. Big manufacture is either here, but owned by a well off foreign power, or even outsourced to one. It's not likely to be reversed in our lifetime. If ever.
Wishing it was'nt so is all well and good. But how would you propose to change it given that we just do not have what is required to make it happen?
toppstuff said:
You need to read more.
Understand the origins of empire, the inevitable rise and fall that they all go through. The movement of labour markets around the world. The demographic drivers behind the rise of the BRIC economies. The inevitable, inexorable process of growth, stagnation, decline and rebirth. Britain is never going to repeat its history. It does not have the people, it does not have the resources and the geo-political map has changed. A couple of world wars and the demise of empire have seen to that.
Britains role in the future is all about ideas. IP. Innovation. License and design. Big manufacture is either here, but owned by a well off foreign power, or even outsourced to one. It's not likely to be reversed in our lifetime. If ever.
Wishing it was'nt so is all well and good. But how would you propose to change it given that we just do not have what is required to make it happen?
Well I disagree with you. We do have the people, we are the direct descendants of the greatest, most inventive people possibly imaginable. All we need is the right attitude, and leadership, and with our people, just see it we don't soar again. Take your anti British propaganda elsewhere, we are sick to death of it.Understand the origins of empire, the inevitable rise and fall that they all go through. The movement of labour markets around the world. The demographic drivers behind the rise of the BRIC economies. The inevitable, inexorable process of growth, stagnation, decline and rebirth. Britain is never going to repeat its history. It does not have the people, it does not have the resources and the geo-political map has changed. A couple of world wars and the demise of empire have seen to that.
Britains role in the future is all about ideas. IP. Innovation. License and design. Big manufacture is either here, but owned by a well off foreign power, or even outsourced to one. It's not likely to be reversed in our lifetime. If ever.
Wishing it was'nt so is all well and good. But how would you propose to change it given that we just do not have what is required to make it happen?
Edited to add: With people with your negative attitude, you are correct, we could never achieve anything. I am addressing this to everyone else.
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 17:13
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 17:14
FrankyH said:
Well I disagree with you. We do have the people, we are the direct descendants of the greatest, most inventive people possibly imaginable. All we need is the right attitude, and leadership, and with our people, just see it we don't soar again. Take your anti British propaganda elsewhere, we are sick to death of it.
Edited to add: With people with your negative attitude, you are correct, we could never achieve anything. I am addressing this to everyone else.
I genuinely can't work out whether you are joking, trolling or just stupid!?! Edited to add: With people with your negative attitude, you are correct, we could never achieve anything. I am addressing this to everyone else.
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 17:13
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 17:14
Since Tata bought JLR, it is more British than it has ever been. Less is outsourced, British Engineers have more control over design and how the vehicles look (as opposed to having to meet specifications set by Ford) and this is beginning to filter through in the cars they are releasing. I'm not sure entirely where you're coming from but with the XJ, Evoque and the teased F-Type I'd say JLR is looking pretty awesome and it is all coming out of the British offices to be manufactured and the British factories.
Looking forward to the current JLR vehicles entering my price range...
Edited by Dublte on Monday 14th May 18:31
FrankyH said:
Well I disagree with you. We do have the people, we are the direct descendants of the greatest, most inventive people possibly imaginable. All we need is the right attitude, and leadership, and with our people, just see it we don't soar again. Take your anti British propaganda elsewhere, we are sick to death of it.
Edited to add: With people with your negative attitude, you are correct, we could never achieve anything. I am addressing this to everyone else.
You are being naive with the greatest respect... Learn more about history and what makes the world tick.Edited to add: With people with your negative attitude, you are correct, we could never achieve anything. I am addressing this to everyone else.
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 17:13
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 17:14
Britains greatness was a combination of innovation and inspirational invention by amazing people, during the era of empire. Although we are a small country, with a small population, we had an empire that spanned the world. We governed and controlled the lives of entire nations.
The East India company was given a charter by Elizabeth I in 1600 to raise an army, conquer nations by waging war and collect taxes in the name of the crown. It is because if this that tea comes from India. It is because of this that we held Hong Kong under a lease from the Chinese that we only gave back in 1997. At one stage, the British Empire through the East India company controlled more than 50% of ALL global trade.
We don't have an empire any more. We have but a small population. We do not earn enough revenue, make enough money, collect enough taxes, have enough people, to ever get back to where we were. Globalisation will not allow us to create an empire again.
Yes, we have smart people. The smartest. But our role is to invent, design, innovate and , to some extent, manufacture. We can be very successful, very profitable at doing this. That is our future. I am not being anti British, quite the opposite. But I think we have to look froward not back. We have to evolve.
Our role is increasingly going to be about design, engineering, skilled manufacture and innovation. But other, richer nations are likely to take the risk of investing tens of billions of pounds that we simply don't have.
I don't mind that TATA own Jaguar. They clearly appreciate what they have, respect the company and have invested heavily. They can afford to, no British company could afford it. In supporting Jaguar TATA have given tens of thousands of families security in Britain.
Did you know that 1 in 3 of all human beings aged under 30 live in India? That provides India with plenty of economic growth they can depend on in the future. Jaguar is in safe hands IMO. Brasil, India, China have demographics on their side. There are billions of them. And only a few of us. We used to rule but we don't anymore.
But that's ok. We can carve out a great role as innovators and designers.
toppstuff said:
You are being naive with the greatest respect... Learn more about history and what makes the world tick.
Britains greatness was a combination of innovation and inspirational invention by amazing people, during the era of empire. Although we are a small country, with a small population, we had an empire that spanned the world. We governed and controlled the lives of entire nations.
The East India company was given a charter by Elizabeth I in 1600 to raise an army, conquer nations by waging war and collect taxes in the name of the crown. It is because if this that tea comes from India. It is because of this that we held Hong Kong under a lease from the Chinese that we only gave back in 1997. At one stage, the British Empire through the East India company controlled more than 50% of ALL global trade.
We don't have an empire any more. We have but a small population. We do not earn enough revenue, make enough money, collect enough taxes, have enough people, to ever get back to where we were. Globalisation will not allow us to create an empire again.
Yes, we have smart people. The smartest. But our role is to invent, design, innovate and , to some extent, manufacture. We can be very successful, very profitable at doing this. That is our future. I am not being anti British, quite the opposite. But I think we have to look froward not back. We have to evolve.
Our role is increasingly going to be about design, engineering, skilled manufacture and innovation. But other, richer nations are likely to take the risk of investing tens of billions of pounds that we simply don't have.
I don't mind that TATA own Jaguar. They clearly appreciate what they have, respect the company and have invested heavily. They can afford to, no British company could afford it. In supporting Jaguar TATA have given tens of thousands of families security in Britain.
Did you know that 1 in 3 of all human beings aged under 30 live in India? That provides India with plenty of economic growth they can depend on in the future. Jaguar is in safe hands IMO. Brasil, India, China have demographics on their side. There are billions of them. And only a few of us. We used to rule but we don't anymore.
But that's ok. We can carve out a great role as innovators and designers.
"To some extent manufacture". Britains greatness was a combination of innovation and inspirational invention by amazing people, during the era of empire. Although we are a small country, with a small population, we had an empire that spanned the world. We governed and controlled the lives of entire nations.
The East India company was given a charter by Elizabeth I in 1600 to raise an army, conquer nations by waging war and collect taxes in the name of the crown. It is because if this that tea comes from India. It is because of this that we held Hong Kong under a lease from the Chinese that we only gave back in 1997. At one stage, the British Empire through the East India company controlled more than 50% of ALL global trade.
We don't have an empire any more. We have but a small population. We do not earn enough revenue, make enough money, collect enough taxes, have enough people, to ever get back to where we were. Globalisation will not allow us to create an empire again.
Yes, we have smart people. The smartest. But our role is to invent, design, innovate and , to some extent, manufacture. We can be very successful, very profitable at doing this. That is our future. I am not being anti British, quite the opposite. But I think we have to look froward not back. We have to evolve.
Our role is increasingly going to be about design, engineering, skilled manufacture and innovation. But other, richer nations are likely to take the risk of investing tens of billions of pounds that we simply don't have.
I don't mind that TATA own Jaguar. They clearly appreciate what they have, respect the company and have invested heavily. They can afford to, no British company could afford it. In supporting Jaguar TATA have given tens of thousands of families security in Britain.
Did you know that 1 in 3 of all human beings aged under 30 live in India? That provides India with plenty of economic growth they can depend on in the future. Jaguar is in safe hands IMO. Brasil, India, China have demographics on their side. There are billions of them. And only a few of us. We used to rule but we don't anymore.
But that's ok. We can carve out a great role as innovators and designers.
As a bare minimum we should manufacture our own ships, trains, trucks, etc., etc., etc. We are not even doing this. We are being humiliated and we don't even have to be. With our people, under the right leadership (leaders working for our country and people, what a revolutionary idea, eh?) we could do amazing things again, things we could all be happy and proud of.
As a bare minimum we could design and build our own trains here in Britain again. There was a golden opportunity to do just that recently, design and build some high speed trains for the East Coast Mainline here in Britain, and thereby restore some pride and happiness into our people, to replace our excellent, designed and built in Britain 125s and 225s. Instead the contract, to design and build trains for Britain, was given to Japan, a country who would never let a foreign country design and build it's trains. And you are telling me this isn't a humiliation, and there's nothing we can do? I say this is a humiliation and there is something we can do, but we absolutely have to have the right leadership and attitude from our people.
That is only 1 example by the way. Take shipbuilding. Again, as a bare minimum every single Royal Navy ship should be designed in Britain and built in a British shipyard. Recently a contract to build 4 Royal Navy tankers went to Korea. And then every now and then our "leader" will appear on tv. and say something like "what can we do to help manufacturing in Britain?"!
We can't sit back and do nothing any longer while our country and people are ruined. If we carry on doing this, we thouroughly deserve the bleak, miserable future in store for us. Success in life comes down to those who deserve it. Currently we don't deserve any better. Our people are acting defeated, and defeatist. We have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and start standing up proudly as a people and country again. Once we do that, anything is possible.
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 23:48
PascalBuyens said:
Ftumpch said:
Jeeez I'm not sure I want to be on after that. 
Oh what the hell... how can you get more English than a well-applied 510bhp left hook delivered in such an elegant velvet glove? I love it!
Erhm, with a well-applied 510bhp right hook maybe? Oh what the hell... how can you get more English than a well-applied 510bhp left hook delivered in such an elegant velvet glove? I love it!
The economy is the economy is the economy. Unless you can find the vast legions of Britons willing to work for 50p per hour that would be required in order to compete with India and China's manufacturing industries, this revolution in material self-sufficiency simply isn't going to happen - and isn't the whole point of progress to make sure people don't have to spend their time doing mundane, repetitive tasks for unjust recompense?
I'm sorry, but if you're so intent on feeling humiliated you'll just have to find something else over which to do it.
FrankyH said:
"To some extent manufacture".
As a bare minimum we should manufacture our own ships, trains, trucks, etc., etc., etc. We are not even doing this. We are being humiliated and we don't even have to be. With our people, under the right leadership (leaders working for our country and people, what a revolutionary idea, eh?) we could do amazing things again, things we could all be happy and proud of.
As a bare minimum we could design and build our own trains here in Britain again. There was a golden opportunity to do just that recently, design and build some high speed trains for the East Coast Mainline here in Britain, and thereby restore some pride and happiness into our people, to replace our excellent, designed and built in Britain 125s and 225s. Instead the contract, to design and build trains for Britain, was given to Japan, a country who would never let a foreign country design and build it's trains. And you are telling me this isn't a humiliation, and there's nothing we can do? I say this is a humiliation and there is something we can do, but we absolutely have to have the right leadership and attitude from our people.
That is only 1 example by the way. Take shipbuilding. Again, as a bare minimum every single Royal Navy ship should be designed in Britain and built in a British shipyard. Recently a contract to build 4 Royal Navy tankers went to Korea. And then every now and then our "leader" will appear on tv. and say something like "what can we do to help manufacturing in Britain?"!
We can't sit back and do nothing any longer while our country and people are ruined. If we carry on doing this, we thouroughly deserve the bleak, miserable future in store for us. Success in life comes down to those who deserve it. Currently we don't deserve any better. Our people are acting defeated, and defeatist. We have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and start standing up proudly as a people and country again. Once we do that, anything is possible.
I know we veered off topic slightly on that last thread about this car but this is something else!As a bare minimum we should manufacture our own ships, trains, trucks, etc., etc., etc. We are not even doing this. We are being humiliated and we don't even have to be. With our people, under the right leadership (leaders working for our country and people, what a revolutionary idea, eh?) we could do amazing things again, things we could all be happy and proud of.
As a bare minimum we could design and build our own trains here in Britain again. There was a golden opportunity to do just that recently, design and build some high speed trains for the East Coast Mainline here in Britain, and thereby restore some pride and happiness into our people, to replace our excellent, designed and built in Britain 125s and 225s. Instead the contract, to design and build trains for Britain, was given to Japan, a country who would never let a foreign country design and build it's trains. And you are telling me this isn't a humiliation, and there's nothing we can do? I say this is a humiliation and there is something we can do, but we absolutely have to have the right leadership and attitude from our people.
That is only 1 example by the way. Take shipbuilding. Again, as a bare minimum every single Royal Navy ship should be designed in Britain and built in a British shipyard. Recently a contract to build 4 Royal Navy tankers went to Korea. And then every now and then our "leader" will appear on tv. and say something like "what can we do to help manufacturing in Britain?"!
We can't sit back and do nothing any longer while our country and people are ruined. If we carry on doing this, we thouroughly deserve the bleak, miserable future in store for us. Success in life comes down to those who deserve it. Currently we don't deserve any better. Our people are acting defeated, and defeatist. We have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and start standing up proudly as a people and country again. Once we do that, anything is possible.
Edited by FrankyH on Monday 14th May 23:48
I think the way we have veered off topic undelines that JLR is a very special brand.
I can think of no other car manufacturer who's ups and downs are considered the symptoms of British national greatness/failure (delete as appropriate).
I watched the inaugeration of M.Hollande today, loads of pomp and ceremony. Motorcycle outriders, soldiers on horses and at its centre an economic fantasist stciking his upper body through the sun roof of a mid sized hatchback.
That gentlemen, is national malaise.
Well done Jaguar for the fantastic XJ.
I can think of no other car manufacturer who's ups and downs are considered the symptoms of British national greatness/failure (delete as appropriate).
I watched the inaugeration of M.Hollande today, loads of pomp and ceremony. Motorcycle outriders, soldiers on horses and at its centre an economic fantasist stciking his upper body through the sun roof of a mid sized hatchback.
That gentlemen, is national malaise.
Well done Jaguar for the fantastic XJ.
Ftumpch said:
True. However I think a skewer through the head would be more appropriate (and kinder) in this case
The economy is the economy is the economy. Unless you can find the vast legions of Britons willing to work for 50p per hour that would be required in order to compete with India and China's manufacturing industries, this revolution in material self-sufficiency simply isn't going to happen - and isn't the whole point of progress to make sure people don't have to spend their time doing mundane, repetitive tasks for unjust recompense?
I'm sorry, but if you're so intent on feeling humiliated you'll just have to find something else over which to do it.
As a bare minimum we can make our own ships, trains, etc.The economy is the economy is the economy. Unless you can find the vast legions of Britons willing to work for 50p per hour that would be required in order to compete with India and China's manufacturing industries, this revolution in material self-sufficiency simply isn't going to happen - and isn't the whole point of progress to make sure people don't have to spend their time doing mundane, repetitive tasks for unjust recompense?
I'm sorry, but if you're so intent on feeling humiliated you'll just have to find something else over which to do it.
FrankyH said:
As a bare minimum we can make our own ships, trains, etc.
How?The French still manage it ( just ) but they are socialists and most of their big companies rely on Government support ( i.e they are kind of pseudo-semi-nationalised, tax payer funded).
Where do we find the tens of billions necessary to do this? The family silver was sold off decades ago.
IP, tech, design and licensing is our future, together with high end manufacture. Take a firm like ARM in Cambridge for example. British, it designs the chips that sit inside every shiny Apple gadget in the world. They take a royalty, but they don't make them.
Bashing metal and making big things like ships is tough because we pay our workers a sensible wage linked to living costs here. Korean workers work for less.
So, I repeat the question. How do we get to build big things again in large volumes ? How is it paid for?
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