RE: Lola enters administration
Discussion
RichB said:
CRB1 said:
As a Chartered Accountant <etc.> ... Blaming HMRC staff in Cardiff serves no purpose at all.
Do you think our hearts bleed for the HMRC? No... 
Stuff the HMRC - British automotive passion is behind what's made Lola the respected outfit they have become over the last half decade. Frankly HMRC can get buggered. It would be a great shame to see the Lola name disappear - I wonder if we are seeing a shift in the motorsport business away from large multi series organisations after the downfall or Reynard, TWR and now Lola?
blade7 said:
Who will lose out ?, suppliers and shopfloor usually, the moneymen know what's coming and have protected themselves I suspect.
Staff anyway. As for the largest creditors, that I understand is Martin Birrane's Peer Group (property company), it's been providing millions in interest free loans for several years now. ceebmoj said:
Jayzee said:
Sad news. Maybe a certain owner of a large CCTV company and races one of their cars could help?
Assuming we are thinking of the same person, I thought he drove a Honda last year.
This is the chap I was thinking of: http://www.rml-adgroup.com/
Agree with CRB1 - you either qualify or you dont for R & D Tax Credits. A good accountant (CRB1 seems to be one!) can present your case to HMRC in a more professional way & enhance your chance of a successful claim.
I do not know the facts of the Lola case & I doubt many (any?) of those posting here do.
Generally speaking, it is time that business looked at itself and did not blame HMRC for business failure unless there is clear and unequivocal evidence of maladministration. As taxpayers we need to know HMRC is not a cash-cow underwriting poorly run businesses.
I am appalled that I pay my tax on time (through PAYE) whilst the Revenue choose to allow many large businesses (think football clubs) an extended line of credit meaning that tens of millions of pounds of taxes (that should be funding public services - education, NHS etc) to be unpaid. The Revenue should act sooner & more decisively on poor business models. There seems to be inconsistency in that the amount of pressure put on very small businesses to pay PAYE, Corporation Tax etc on time is intense whilst larger organisations can run up debts with impunity.
There is a vast amount wrong with HMRC (and I cannot see that CRB1 is an apologist for the department), but they should not take the flak when there are many reasons involved in the failure of a business (economic downturn, poor management, closure of a significant customer) and when HMRC do take the decision to act they do so to protect public money and to send a message to the wider business community that taxes should not be the last creditor to be paid.
I do not know the facts of the Lola case & I doubt many (any?) of those posting here do.
Generally speaking, it is time that business looked at itself and did not blame HMRC for business failure unless there is clear and unequivocal evidence of maladministration. As taxpayers we need to know HMRC is not a cash-cow underwriting poorly run businesses.
I am appalled that I pay my tax on time (through PAYE) whilst the Revenue choose to allow many large businesses (think football clubs) an extended line of credit meaning that tens of millions of pounds of taxes (that should be funding public services - education, NHS etc) to be unpaid. The Revenue should act sooner & more decisively on poor business models. There seems to be inconsistency in that the amount of pressure put on very small businesses to pay PAYE, Corporation Tax etc on time is intense whilst larger organisations can run up debts with impunity.
There is a vast amount wrong with HMRC (and I cannot see that CRB1 is an apologist for the department), but they should not take the flak when there are many reasons involved in the failure of a business (economic downturn, poor management, closure of a significant customer) and when HMRC do take the decision to act they do so to protect public money and to send a message to the wider business community that taxes should not be the last creditor to be paid.
Johnboy Mac said:
blade7 said:
Who will lose out ?, suppliers and shopfloor usually, the moneymen know what's coming and have protected themselves I suspect.
Staff anyway. As for the largest creditors, that I understand is Martin Birrane's Peer Group (property company), it's been providing millions in interest free loans for several years now. Found this on their website.
"Lola management changes. The Lola Group has a number of key and exciting business opportunities through 2012 and beyond. Wednesday 28th December 2011
Lola today announces that Mr.Robin Brundle will be stepping out of the day to day running of the Lola Group and will be working with Lola’s Executive Chairman, Mr.Martin Birrane, on these key initiatives.
Robin Brundle said “We have generated some significant opportunities over the past three years and some now require additional time allocation from the Lola executive team to bring them to fruition”.
Martin Birrane said “This is a necessary step to take and I would like to reassure all customers that actions have already been taken to manage the ongoing business. There will be a separate announcement around this in due course”."
It seems strange that the Peer Group that is worth £160m 2010 is effectively getting rid of Lola. Are there problems with the Peer Group?
"Lola management changes. The Lola Group has a number of key and exciting business opportunities through 2012 and beyond. Wednesday 28th December 2011
Lola today announces that Mr.Robin Brundle will be stepping out of the day to day running of the Lola Group and will be working with Lola’s Executive Chairman, Mr.Martin Birrane, on these key initiatives.
Robin Brundle said “We have generated some significant opportunities over the past three years and some now require additional time allocation from the Lola executive team to bring them to fruition”.
Martin Birrane said “This is a necessary step to take and I would like to reassure all customers that actions have already been taken to manage the ongoing business. There will be a separate announcement around this in due course”."
It seems strange that the Peer Group that is worth £160m 2010 is effectively getting rid of Lola. Are there problems with the Peer Group?
Hasn't Lola gone bust more than once before?
I remember the atrocious MasterCard F1 project being one of the reasons but Lola is surely a classic case case of genius engineering over sound business practices. British history is full of such examples. The motor racing world is a money pit of good intentions and rampant profiteering. Lola, Reynard, TWR all have a history of rich success followed by mystery over the accounts.
I remember the atrocious MasterCard F1 project being one of the reasons but Lola is surely a classic case case of genius engineering over sound business practices. British history is full of such examples. The motor racing world is a money pit of good intentions and rampant profiteering. Lola, Reynard, TWR all have a history of rich success followed by mystery over the accounts.
CRB1 said:
As a Chartered Accountant achieving R & D Tax credits/enhanced Corporation Tax relief, for a number of my client's I find it incredible that Lola are partially blaming HMRC for their non payment. Non payment of R & D tax credits on qualifying expenditure that meets HMRC's clearly defined criteria, is not possible. Clearly Lola's R & D spend does not meet the criteria set out. Pure specualtion on my part but, may I suggest that in previous tax years Lola has met the criteria and they have assumed therefore that similar expenditure would meet the criteria each year, thus triggering the refund. This is not the way to proceed with an R & D tax credit claim. Each claim is assessed on its own merits, IRRESPECTIVE, of what was agreed the previous year.
Despite what Lola have said, I cannot believe R & D tax Credits (non payment thereof) are a reason for their downfall, sad though it is.
Blaming HMRC staff in Cardiff serves no purpose at all.
I think the purpose it serves is to try and divert the attention of other creditors and convince them to invest and work with the IP if a buyer is found. That is normaly the reason. I agree though, it's not like HMRC changed the rules under them, they did not qualify under a clear set of rules.Despite what Lola have said, I cannot believe R & D tax Credits (non payment thereof) are a reason for their downfall, sad though it is.
Blaming HMRC staff in Cardiff serves no purpose at all.
On the future, hopefully Mr Fernandes dose take an interest. I would love to see a Caterham Lola in F1 and a Lola Caterham in Le-Mans. Perhaps they will be interested in the skills, and space, for building the long vaunted "new caterham".
If the Government can prop up the banks with billions, which they're probably never going to get it all back, isn't it about time some effort was made to support industry. I'm not advocating supporting baskets cases for ever, just a helping hand to get potentialy profitable companies into pastures new. A simplistic calc, but 170 persons out of work getting the government so called minimum living wage of as benefits of £26,000 = £4,420,000/yr. So £5,000,000 bunged Lolas way isn't a bad idea, is it?
It's a pity, what will the effect be on the Le Mans grid? As far as I know, e.g the Lotus entry was just stickers on a lola run Lola, will that dissapear?
I'm also not sure that you can blame the government - yes, it's a cool company, and thats 170 skilled lads possibly out of work, but where do you draw the line? The government can't just bend tax rules / bail out every company that people like, even if it is iconic and cool.
I'm also not sure that you can blame the government - yes, it's a cool company, and thats 170 skilled lads possibly out of work, but where do you draw the line? The government can't just bend tax rules / bail out every company that people like, even if it is iconic and cool.
egomeister said:
RichB said:
CRB1 said:
As a Chartered Accountant <etc.> ... Blaming HMRC staff in Cardiff serves no purpose at all.
Do you think our hearts bleed for the HMRC? No... Stuff the HMRC - British automotive passion is behind what's made Lola the respected outfit they have become over the last half decade. Frankly HMRC can get buggered. It would be a great shame to see the Lola name disappear - I wonder if we are seeing a shift in the motorsport business away from large multi series organisations after the downfall or Reynard, TWR and now Lola?
Any business that is placed into administration is done so with much head and heart searching and is not a decision that is taken lightly.
The harsh reality is that all of the company decisions are ultimately taken by the Directors and if those decisions have taken the company down a blind alley of no return without protection from the risk therein, then this is the consequence- bad management decisions full stop.
Agree with the above, if a comparative newcomer like Ginetta (with no serious racing legacy behind it) can build a successful racecar business then why can't an iconic marque with a long pedigree in high level competition like Lola do the same?
I'd suggest the blame lies with the mamagement.
I'd suggest the blame lies with the mamagement.
V8 GRF said:
Agree with the above, if a comparative newcomer like Ginetta (with no serious racing legacy behind it) can build a successful racecar business then why can't an iconic marque with a long pedigree in high level competition like Lola do the same?
I'd suggest the blame lies with the mamagement.
Agreed.I'd suggest the blame lies with the mamagement.
UK governments keep telling us that we need to adapt our businesses to new technology to survive in changing markets, and I thought Lola were just that. A damn shame if their demise really is due to poor management, which unfortunately is widespread in the UK.
Racing without Lola just isn't right.
robinessex said:
If the Government can prop up the banks with billions, which they're probably never going to get it all back, isn't it about time some effort was made to support industry. I'm not advocating supporting baskets cases for ever, just a helping hand to get potentialy profitable companies into pastures new. A simplistic calc, but 170 persons out of work getting the government so called minimum living wage of as benefits of £26,000 = £4,420,000/yr. So £5,000,000 bunged Lolas way isn't a bad idea, is it?
Like Delorean ?. F1 has been Lola's downfall in the past, they never had the designers to make a competitive package. When I was there word was the top 3000/indy designer asked for a better pay deal, Lola refused so he went to Reynard I think, the next season Lola got hammered.
Jayzee said:
ceebmoj said:
Jayzee said:
Sad news. Maybe a certain owner of a large CCTV company and races one of their cars could help?
Assuming we are thinking of the same person, I thought he drove a Honda last year.
This is the chap I was thinking of: http://www.rml-adgroup.com/
Phil Burton of 360 Vision (formally of VCL) has been racing in the BGTs for some years and is not short of a bob or two.
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